Dyno results, dissapointing......

[HPP]

Talk to the dyno guys and see what they charge for a one on one carb setting session. This could be done in a few hours with a box of jets and shotoers. It would really dial in the timing and carb settings.

Where you go from there depends on what you do with the car, what your budget is, and what your ego demands.

If this is a fun to cruise car that puts a smile on your face, why mess with it. Even if you race it, you're doing brackets which are more about consistantcy than all out power. Yes, you could utilize more cam. If you plan on spending a larger percentage of time over 4700 rpm, then a cam upgrade may make you smile more. If not, then a bigger cam will bleed off some cylinder pressure which may drop off your low rpm torque some which could make stop light cruising less fun.

[Cooter]

Slap on a 250 Shot of Nitrous and those numbers will climb.

[Paul G]

I have been doing a lot research. Talked to a very reputible engine builder about rebuilder the 360 to a 408. Considering doing a head cam swap myself. Looking to a 6.1 Hemi swap. And finally going to a 440.

The 6.1 would be the hardest to acomplish if keeping the factory FI. Carbed 6.1 is much easier. Both of those options will be a great running 425HP choice, and will bolt up to the A518. Just lots of $$ and lots more research.

A 440 build and retrofit is a good option. Lots of things have to change over though. It will bolt up to the A518 with adapters or an Ultrabell. Lots of $$ again. In stock form or with a mild refreshing what am I looking at, 400HP/TQ?

Going with a pro built 408 stroker is very easy to do. Pull the motor, 3 months later put it back in. Very easy to do but very expensive. I am told close to 500 HP is very realistic. Eddy heads, roller valve train, etc. Just lots of $$. Brooks Racing quoted $7500 for the build and has one being sent to a cutomer now.

Next is doing a head and cam swap myself. Looking on the Edelbrock website they list a top end package. I already have everything but the heads and cam.
The heads in the package are #60779, 63cc combustion chamber, 2.02/1.60 valves, springs good to .575 lift.

They list a cam and lifter kit #7177,
Duration at 050 inch Lift  234 int./244 exh,
Valve Lift with Factory Rocker Arm Ratio  0.488 int./0.510 exh,
Lobe Separation (degrees)  112.

The Edelbrock tech help guy says this should be good for 417 HP. What should I really expect with this? Even with some professional porting work? I am looking at the $2500 range allowing up to $600 for porting work. Doing the rest myself.

Last would be just doing a cam swap. I called Lunati. He suggested a Voodoo cam #60403 with a new set of springs.
Duration at 050 inch Lift  226 int./234 exh
Valve Lift with Factory Rocker Arm Ratio  0.494 int./0.513 exh
Lobe Separation (degrees)  110

This is the least expensive, around $700. But with the least gain. How much would just a cam and springs get me?
 


The last to choices are doable right now. The others will take some time, and a little (no a lot) of funds building.

[cdr]

cam change pick up around 30hp,but your tq peaks at about 4000,will make it very soggy,for the street lots of cubes makes one happy,small motor you have to gear the heck out of it,cause it wont make torque,build a 496 bb & you will be happy that is what i am doing with a518 trans,4.10 gear

[Paul G]

I changed the primary jets to 70's instead of the stock 72's. Seems to run better, sometimes a wash & wax makes in run better too. I might try some smaller jets yet and see what happens. Cant make the MPG any worse.

I am thinking sometimes to just go big block. But, the extra weight gain will offset some of the extra power. How much, I dont know? The 360 can go to 400 HP/TQ. And be a couple hundred pounds lighter.

Found this on Ebay; http://www.ebay.com/itm/Plymouth-Dodge-Mopar-1970-F-440-HP-REMANUFACTURED-COMPLETE-ENGINE-/160806550111?hash=item2570d13a5f&item=160806550111&pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&vxp=mtr

Probably a stock build, but it is ready to drop right in, along with a new radiator. And maybe T-bars, and an adapter plate to mount up to the A518. 

 

 

[440]

I swear black and blue my cars are always faster after a wash   

[Chryco Psycho]

The Big block is more about torque & getting a heavy car moving , the small block will have less torque but you have to change everyhting to put a big block in

[bobs66440]

There's no replacement for displacement! 

[Rolling_Thunder]

I'd vote for a 5.7L Hemi...     it is a relatively easy swap and just an overall more efficient engine than any big block or LA small block...       You can pick up a 5.7L hemi for relatively cheap, motor mounts, exhaust manifolds, and a basic fuel system and you're set...      it'll bolt up to your A518 - give you the most affordable way to put EFI on your car, and is a proven engine combo for around 360hp or 400+hp with what the LX guys bolt on all day long.  It is nowhere near as expensive as a 6.1L -

[Kern Dog]

I had the Charger tested on a roller dyno in 2005. I was surprised at the numbers as well.
440/493, 10.8 compression, Edelbrock 84 cc heads, Performer RPM intake, BG 850 VS carb, 2" TTI headers and a MP '509 cam, advanced 4 degrees. 727 trans.
The sheet showed a HP peak of 369 @ 5151 rpms and a torque peak of 452 @ 3535 rpms. Using the 20% loss factor of an automatic trans, the numbers would be more like 460 hp and  565 ft/lbs tq. These numbers would change later with a different cam, then change again with the '509 cam installed straight up. The advanced cam put my cranking compression at 230! Installed straight up, they are all in the 195 range. Advancing the cam lowers the power peak.

[Cooter]

I'm rarely disappointed in Dyno numbers. Mostly because i build the car's engine to my needs and not what peak numbers are.. Sure you have a Big block that puts out 800 HP, but for how long? How many times are you buying racing fuel? How many times are you under the hood? How much $$ invested to make that kind of power?

installing a newer Hemi cost more than building and installing a good 'ol fashioned big block 440. People today are all hung up on peak numbers. I've seen cars with engines that produced 390 Honest HP out perform much more powerful cars. Bout the only time you have to worry bout peak numbers and being embarrased is when someone has more $$ than you. At that point, you have to chalk it up to "You can't out perform Money"...

Too many Youtube videos are being posted by rich guys and it's causing the Average car guy to want those huge numbers. Can't be done and live. There's an old saying, "Fast, Reliable, Cheap....Pick two".

In order for a car to make 650-750 HP all day long, do it repeatedly  for 10 years or better, it's gonna cost Way over what a flash-in-the-pan, one time engine would. I know you've seen it before at your local track.
Brand X'er comes along and blasts off some rediculously quick time in the 1/8 mile and you never see the car again. Next time you talk to him/her, the car was sold due to money problems. I would MUCH rather have 5 cars in the 7's 1/8 mile than ONE car in the 4's..

I will say this though about that stroker 360...Hadda guy here build one in an early Barracuda. Swore up and down he had the baddest little car around. I heard him, didn't pay any mind. No need to prove what I already know right?
Well, soon enough, here he comes. "Bet it could give your Big Block a run for it's money"..My response was "Might"...

No sooner than I said that, he decides he gonna pull out HP numbers. Sure, it made impressive numbers @ 450 HP, but when I asked him about the cost, he claimed "you can't make that kind of power for cheap"..

I replied, "Sure you can...It's called a big block"..

[justcruisin]

Why not stick with what you have at this stage, maybe pull a head to see what you have so you can make a better choice for a cam swap. Get a wide band o2 and gauge and a bunch of jets and set your fuel and ignition up really well. You may be quite happy for a minimal cost.

[mauve66]

Last would be just doing a cam swap. I called Lunati. He suggested a Voodoo cam #60403 with a new set of springs.
Duration at 050 inch Lift  226 int./234 exh
Valve Lift with Factory Rocker Arm Ratio  0.494 int./0.513 exh
Lobe Separation (degrees)  110

This is the least expensive, around $700. But with the least gain. How much would just a cam and springs get me?
 


The last to choices are doable right now. The others will take some time, and a little (no a lot) of funds building.

$700 for a cam change???
I thought cams were in the 180-250 range...........

[Paul G]

Last would be just doing a cam swap. I called Lunati. He suggested a Voodoo cam #60403 with a new set of springs.
Duration at 050 inch Lift  226 int./234 exh
Valve Lift with Factory Rocker Arm Ratio  0.494 int./0.513 exh
Lobe Separation (degrees)  110

This is the least expensive, around $700. But with the least gain. How much would just a cam and springs get me?
 


The last to choices are doable right now. The others will take some time, and a little (no a lot) of funds building.

$700 for a cam change???
I thought cams were in the 180-250 range...........

A cam is in the $200 range, lifters around $100, springs around $300, gaskets and fluids..... you get the picture. Hot roddin aint cheap! 

[Challenger340]

IMO, after looking at your Dyno sheet again....
I'd do the Cam swap....I think you will be pleasantly surprised at the difference.

You may wish to look into the Comp xe274H as well....works very well.

[Paul G]

IMO, after looking at your Dyno sheet again....
I'd do the Cam swap....I think you will be pleasantly surprised at the difference.

You may wish to look into the Comp xe274H as well....works very well.

Thats the cam Comp suggested I use. They didnt say anything about replacing the stock springs. Dont know if I would still need to?

I have been playing around with jetting. Went down to 70's from the stock 72's. MPG increased and the motor still feels the same. Tried a set of 68's. Now getting a stumble right off idle. Cant do a big mean burn out like before. Maybe I found the limit with the 70's? I dont know. The ambient temps are over 100° now. That may be a factor.

I have pretty much decided that the big Charger needs a big motor. I am working on a two year plan to build a 440. Dont want to invest too much more $$ in the 360. If a cam swap could be done for cheap, in a weekend, and pick up some nice hp I might consider it. I just dont see the payback in spending $6 or 7$ grand on the 360 just to make the 500 hp number. The A body guys really have little choice in big blocks. Big hp 360 builds seem more common for them.  

[Chryco Psycho]

70 may be as lean as you want to go , if it starts to stumble it is obvouosly leaner but can be covered with more acc pump shot .
You will have a long parts list to do the 440 swap but the weight is not a big factor . Mine handles well even with the big block .

[mauve66]

Last would be just doing a cam swap. I called Lunati. He suggested a Voodoo cam #60403 with a new set of springs.
Duration at 050 inch Lift  226 int./234 exh
Valve Lift with Factory Rocker Arm Ratio  0.494 int./0.513 exh
Lobe Separation (degrees)  110

This is the least expensive, around $700. But with the least gain. How much would just a cam and springs get me?
 


The last to choices are doable right now. The others will take some time, and a little (no a lot) of funds building.

$700 for a cam change???
I thought cams were in the 180-250 range...........

A cam is in the $200 range, lifters around $100, springs around $300, gaskets and fluids..... you get the picture. Hot roddin aint cheap! 

ok, i missed the new springs part, and when i bought a cam back in 98 the lifters came with it for about 180 bucks, guess i'm not getting a motor anytime soon..........

[Paul G]

I am still playing around with this combo. Went back to the 70 primary jets. Also tried lighter springs in the secondary vacuum diaphragm. Right now it is 2 spring sizes lighter than stock. Holley's instructions say to keep going lighter until it bogs, or you can feel the secondaries opening, then go back up a spring size till no bog. It pulls smoothly all the way to 6 grand. Feels stronger on the top end now. I wish I knew what cam was in there?

Thing is, looking back, when I rebuilt the Holley a long while ago, I replaced everything that came in the kit along with new needle and seats and a new 6.5 power valve. I think that opened a can of worms. Never ran like it did before the carb rebuild. What I am starting to think is the original engine tuner did some weird things to the carb with his tuning method. He jammed the power valve so it stayed closed, I still have that power valve, and put 76 jets in the primary rather then the stock 72's, didn't do anything to the secondary side. I undid his tune with the new 6.5 power valve. That totally screwed up everything. So here I am now with the stock 6.5 power valve in it, going down from the stock 72 jets to 70's, rather than up in primary jet size like he did, along with lighter springs in the secondary. It seems to have made a world of difference. It doesn't feel like the same car I had on the dyno a couple of months ago.

That make any sense? Should I put the jammed up power valve back in with 76 jets? Or try to get the carb a little more dialed in trying things like this?

[cdr]

it needs the power valve for street driving,

[Cooter]

Usually, when I've encountered a carb with the power valve removed/blocked off, it has jets about 10 sizes up from stock. Like mentioned, this is only a race type mod as on the street, it is kind of a bear to drive like this. Sounds like you might be onto some more power in the carb.

[mauve66]

there are different power values based on your vacumm or something, someone will tell you
when i moved from mo to nv i had to change the power valve and accel pump and accel pump cam on the sixpak just to get it to idle in gear without raising the idle above 1K rpm

[Chryco Psycho]

Check vacuum at idle in gear , use a powervalve rated at least 1.5 inches below that . 6.5 is the most common if the vacuum is above 8" in gear .

[Scaregrabber]

You're on the right track with your tuning (obviously), it takes time but it's well worth it. I agree on using a vacuum gauge so you can ensure the PV is the right one.

Sheldon

[c00nhunterjoe]

If you are debating a cam swap then all of your current carb tuning is wasted effort. Do the cam swap, then tune the carb