Dyno results, dissapointing......

[Paul G]

Went to the Dyno day today. Lots of people there. I was impressed by some of the imports making 450+ HP. Over boosted little rockets! Spent about 3 hours waiting to get on the Dyno. Pretty cool watching the numbers come up on different cars. 

I expected better numbers from my little 360. I am very dissapointed to say the least. The first pull is with A/F ratio. The second is without A/f ratio working because the dumps were open and the sensor was still in the tailpipe.

First pull is 224 HP max around 4700 RPM, torque 269 max right at the start of the pull, then tapering off after around 4000 RPM. I had the dumps closed. Engine temp at 180°. A/F ratio started off around 12, then dropped to 11.5 around 4000rpm, then down to 11 around 4600 RPM for the rest of the pull. The dyno operator says I am too fat, I think he ment the A/F ratio...I think.  What can I do about being too fat? Short of diet and excersize. 



The second pull I opened the dumps. This was a crowd pleaser! Gained 4 HP for 228, gained 9# of torque for 278. The A/F ratio sensor was in the tailpipe still, so no reading.

[A383Wing]

"Too fat" in engine terms is you are running too rich....drop a couple of jet sizes in the carb

I did a dyno run with the Daytona years ago....came in right where I thought it would....but the operator also said I was running too rich at WOT.....I went down on the secondary jets 10 steps I think....car runs much better at WOT now

Bryan

[charger_fan_4ever]

Is it stock ?

[Paul G]

"Too fat" in engine terms is you are running too rich....drop a couple of jet sizes in the carb

I did a dyno run with the Daytona years ago....came in right where I thought it would....but the operator also said I was running too rich at WOT.....I went down on the secondary jets 10 steps I think....car runs much better at WOT now

Bryan

The secondary is a plate. Stock size for the carb. The primary side is jetted up one size, two numbers.

Is it stock ?

Not stock. Ported Iron heads, Eddy RPM air gap intake, Holley 750, Crane roller rockers, MSD ignition, 8 quart oil pan. It has the stock 360 crank. I dont have the specs on the cam or cylinder compression. I guess it was built for show, not go.

[HPP]

Actually not too suprising. I've been to enough dyno sessions to know that it is a very humbing experience for a lot of guys. What is your altitude there? That can have a big impact.

Looks like you don't have enough cam for the heads since your power is peaking at 4700. The wiggles in teh lines at higher RPM look like some spark scatter too.

[Rolling_Thunder]

agree with above. 

[Paul G]

Actually not too suprising. I've been to enough dyno sessions to know that it is a very humbing experience for a lot of guys. What is your altitude there? That can have a big impact.

Looks like you don't have enough cam for the heads since your power is peaking at 4700. The wiggles in teh lines at higher RPM look like some spark scatter too.

We are at 1200' here. Spark scatter? I replaced the wires with a set of Ron's Fire cores last year. Could the coil or cap be faulty? 10 year old MSD coil, cap and rotor.

I have suspected the cam is probably a stockish grind. No lope really. I figure this little "boat anchor" I am running puts out about 280 horse using 20% for drivetrain losses.

Why would the original engine builder go through the expense of using nice roller rockers, do some head porting, use a big Holley 750, deep sump oil pan, and then use a crappy cam?

[c00nhunterjoe]

Nearly 300 horse on a stock cam isn't really bad. The rest of your combo is ready for a bigger cam and your numbers should climb respectably.

[cdr]

headers ?

[Paul G]

headers ?

Yes. Hooker long tubes.

[A383Wing]

I guess I thought you were running a Carter 4bbl...

my bad

Bryan

[Challenger340]

"Fat" in tuning jargon means too "rich"....

From your Dyno Chart...I'll bet Dollars to Donuts that is an absolutely bone STOCK 2 BBL Cam !! , no matter how much Rocker train "bling"etc., is bolted on the Engine.

The good news, is you would see a DRAMATIC horsepower increase with a Camshaft change.

[firefighter3931]

  From the power curve it looks like the Cam is holding it back. Imagine how much better that power curve would look with an additional 1000-1300 rpm (5700-6000 redline) 



Ron

[bobs66440]

750cfm carb is definitely too big for that motor. Especially for a low rpm street application.  600-650 would be much better.

[HPP]

We are at 1200' here. Spark scatter? I replaced the wires with a set of Ron's Fire cores last year. Could the coil or cap be faulty? 10 year old MSD coil, cap and rotor.

I have suspected the cam is probably a stockish grind. No lope really. I figure this little "boat anchor" I am running puts out about 280 horse using 20% for drivetrain losses.

Why would the original engine builder go through the expense of using nice roller rockers, do some head porting, use a big Holley 750, deep sump oil pan, and then use a crappy cam?

1200 is dinging you a little but, but not a huge amount. If you were up the pass in Flagstaff, then these would be really good number for a built big block.

Spark scatter can be a weak ignition or a cap/rotor that has some errosion on it. It isn't a huge deal and you probably never noticed in during normal driving. If you were spending time at rpm, then it might be more noticeable. It might be worth replacing the cap and rotor, but I wouldn't worry about the coil.

It certianly is a mild grind on the cam. Hard to say why the builder put it in there. Keeping everything very street friendly? Something the previous owner requested? Hard to say. Trying to build cylinder pressure maybe. What's your cranking compression at in psi?

[Paul G]

What's your cranking compression at in psi?

I did a compression test a few months ago.
1 - 160    2 - 170
3 - 170    4 - 165
5 - 165    6 - 175
7 - 165    8 - 160

Any idea what what the CR might be based on the compression test? What was stock CR for a 72 360? I know it still has a 360 crank. 

[HPP]

I'm guessing somewhere between 8 and 9 to 1.  I believe stock was claimed to be 8, but actual measurements could have been as low as 7.

Here is a calculators you can use to try and sneak up on it, but you'll need cam specs to make it work. http://www.rbracing-rsr.com/comprAdvHD.htm

[BSB67]

First, it looks like the numbers are not "corrected" to standard conditions.  Your corrected numbers, which is what nearly everyone uses, would be higher than the actual that you posted.  99 degree temperature will suck considerable hp out of any internal combustion engine.  Corrected would probably be 5 to 7% higher.

Second, running rich also sucks considerable power from a motor.  Funny, as the first thing everyone does is to put bigger jets in.  Two jet numbers is two jet sizes.

Third, like pointed out by everyone, the power peak is at a relatively low rpm , likely due to the cam size.  However, it does seem a little odd that the motor continues to pull nearly 2000 rpm past peak.  Usually it will go for a bit past peak and then drop like a stone.

[Paul G]

I guess I have some options.

I can keep it the way it is. 

Try a smaller carb, 650/670, or smaller jets in the 750. Gain anything?

I could try a cam swap and see what improvements I well get. HP/TQ gain?

Go for a cam and some Eddy heads both at the same time. HP/TQ gain?

[Scaregrabber]

Jet it down a bit (I would go down 2 jet sizes at first), it's almost free and proper tuning is part of any engine build. the 750 will run fine on what you have if it is tuned correctly. The figures aren't really that bad for what you have but if you optimize it you may be surprised how much better it will run.

Sheldon

[Scaregrabber]

Oh: And after the rejetting if you want more I would carefully select a matching camshaft and torque convertor, that will bring it alive and fully utilize your headers and intake system. Hard to spec a cam without knowing the actual compression ratio though.

Sheldon

[Chryco Psycho]

I would just tune it , even go back to the dyno with a box full of jets , the 750 is fine on there , get the carb dialed in for best power both in full pull & cruise mode , set up the timing , make sure you power valve is right with the vacuum you are making .
What kind of dyno was it tested on , different makes will read differently ...... Nevermind , it is a dynojet which read higher than some other makes do . Unfortunatly you cannot do cruise runs on a dynojet dyno they only read acceration , Mustang dynos are better for tuning   . Dynos are generally heart breakers everyone makes around 500 hp until they get on a dyno . There is nothing wrong with what you have if you are happy with the power it has .

[charger_fan_4ever]

Maybe i missed it but what is the total ignition timing on the run ?

[cdr]

yes it was corrected hp, it says  CF-SAE, also look at bottom of run it says the amount of x 1.05,also dyno jets do run about 10-15% high

[Paul G]

Maybe i missed it but what is the total ignition timing on the run ?

Timing is 36 total, +or-.

[HPP]

Talk to the dyno guys and see what they charge for a one on one carb setting session. This could be done in a few hours with a box of jets and shotoers. It would really dial in the timing and carb settings.

Where you go from there depends on what you do with the car, what your budget is, and what your ego demands.

If this is a fun to cruise car that puts a smile on your face, why mess with it. Even if you race it, you're doing brackets which are more about consistantcy than all out power. Yes, you could utilize more cam. If you plan on spending a larger percentage of time over 4700 rpm, then a cam upgrade may make you smile more. If not, then a bigger cam will bleed off some cylinder pressure which may drop off your low rpm torque some which could make stop light cruising less fun.

[Cooter]

Slap on a 250 Shot of Nitrous and those numbers will climb.

[Paul G]

I have been doing a lot research. Talked to a very reputible engine builder about rebuilder the 360 to a 408. Considering doing a head cam swap myself. Looking to a 6.1 Hemi swap. And finally going to a 440.

The 6.1 would be the hardest to acomplish if keeping the factory FI. Carbed 6.1 is much easier. Both of those options will be a great running 425HP choice, and will bolt up to the A518. Just lots of $$ and lots more research.

A 440 build and retrofit is a good option. Lots of things have to change over though. It will bolt up to the A518 with adapters or an Ultrabell. Lots of $$ again. In stock form or with a mild refreshing what am I looking at, 400HP/TQ?

Going with a pro built 408 stroker is very easy to do. Pull the motor, 3 months later put it back in. Very easy to do but very expensive. I am told close to 500 HP is very realistic. Eddy heads, roller valve train, etc. Just lots of $$. Brooks Racing quoted $7500 for the build and has one being sent to a cutomer now.

Next is doing a head and cam swap myself. Looking on the Edelbrock website they list a top end package. I already have everything but the heads and cam.
The heads in the package are #60779, 63cc combustion chamber, 2.02/1.60 valves, springs good to .575 lift.

They list a cam and lifter kit #7177,
Duration at 050 inch Lift  234 int./244 exh,
Valve Lift with Factory Rocker Arm Ratio  0.488 int./0.510 exh,
Lobe Separation (degrees)  112.

The Edelbrock tech help guy says this should be good for 417 HP. What should I really expect with this? Even with some professional porting work? I am looking at the $2500 range allowing up to $600 for porting work. Doing the rest myself.

Last would be just doing a cam swap. I called Lunati. He suggested a Voodoo cam #60403 with a new set of springs.
Duration at 050 inch Lift  226 int./234 exh
Valve Lift with Factory Rocker Arm Ratio  0.494 int./0.513 exh
Lobe Separation (degrees)  110

This is the least expensive, around $700. But with the least gain. How much would just a cam and springs get me?
 


The last to choices are doable right now. The others will take some time, and a little (no a lot) of funds building.

[cdr]

cam change pick up around 30hp,but your tq peaks at about 4000,will make it very soggy,for the street lots of cubes makes one happy,small motor you have to gear the heck out of it,cause it wont make torque,build a 496 bb & you will be happy that is what i am doing with a518 trans,4.10 gear

[Paul G]

I changed the primary jets to 70's instead of the stock 72's. Seems to run better, sometimes a wash & wax makes in run better too. I might try some smaller jets yet and see what happens. Cant make the MPG any worse.

I am thinking sometimes to just go big block. But, the extra weight gain will offset some of the extra power. How much, I dont know? The 360 can go to 400 HP/TQ. And be a couple hundred pounds lighter.

Found this on Ebay; http://www.ebay.com/itm/Plymouth-Dodge-Mopar-1970-F-440-HP-REMANUFACTURED-COMPLETE-ENGINE-/160806550111?hash=item2570d13a5f&item=160806550111&pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&vxp=mtr

Probably a stock build, but it is ready to drop right in, along with a new radiator. And maybe T-bars, and an adapter plate to mount up to the A518. 

 

 

[440]

I swear black and blue my cars are always faster after a wash   

[Chryco Psycho]

The Big block is more about torque & getting a heavy car moving , the small block will have less torque but you have to change everyhting to put a big block in

[bobs66440]

There's no replacement for displacement! 

[Rolling_Thunder]

I'd vote for a 5.7L Hemi...     it is a relatively easy swap and just an overall more efficient engine than any big block or LA small block...       You can pick up a 5.7L hemi for relatively cheap, motor mounts, exhaust manifolds, and a basic fuel system and you're set...      it'll bolt up to your A518 - give you the most affordable way to put EFI on your car, and is a proven engine combo for around 360hp or 400+hp with what the LX guys bolt on all day long.  It is nowhere near as expensive as a 6.1L -

[Kern Dog]

I had the Charger tested on a roller dyno in 2005. I was surprised at the numbers as well.
440/493, 10.8 compression, Edelbrock 84 cc heads, Performer RPM intake, BG 850 VS carb, 2" TTI headers and a MP '509 cam, advanced 4 degrees. 727 trans.
The sheet showed a HP peak of 369 @ 5151 rpms and a torque peak of 452 @ 3535 rpms. Using the 20% loss factor of an automatic trans, the numbers would be more like 460 hp and  565 ft/lbs tq. These numbers would change later with a different cam, then change again with the '509 cam installed straight up. The advanced cam put my cranking compression at 230! Installed straight up, they are all in the 195 range. Advancing the cam lowers the power peak.

[Cooter]

I'm rarely disappointed in Dyno numbers. Mostly because i build the car's engine to my needs and not what peak numbers are.. Sure you have a Big block that puts out 800 HP, but for how long? How many times are you buying racing fuel? How many times are you under the hood? How much $$ invested to make that kind of power?

installing a newer Hemi cost more than building and installing a good 'ol fashioned big block 440. People today are all hung up on peak numbers. I've seen cars with engines that produced 390 Honest HP out perform much more powerful cars. Bout the only time you have to worry bout peak numbers and being embarrased is when someone has more $$ than you. At that point, you have to chalk it up to "You can't out perform Money"...

Too many Youtube videos are being posted by rich guys and it's causing the Average car guy to want those huge numbers. Can't be done and live. There's an old saying, "Fast, Reliable, Cheap....Pick two".

In order for a car to make 650-750 HP all day long, do it repeatedly  for 10 years or better, it's gonna cost Way over what a flash-in-the-pan, one time engine would. I know you've seen it before at your local track.
Brand X'er comes along and blasts off some rediculously quick time in the 1/8 mile and you never see the car again. Next time you talk to him/her, the car was sold due to money problems. I would MUCH rather have 5 cars in the 7's 1/8 mile than ONE car in the 4's..

I will say this though about that stroker 360...Hadda guy here build one in an early Barracuda. Swore up and down he had the baddest little car around. I heard him, didn't pay any mind. No need to prove what I already know right?
Well, soon enough, here he comes. "Bet it could give your Big Block a run for it's money"..My response was "Might"...

No sooner than I said that, he decides he gonna pull out HP numbers. Sure, it made impressive numbers @ 450 HP, but when I asked him about the cost, he claimed "you can't make that kind of power for cheap"..

I replied, "Sure you can...It's called a big block"..

[justcruisin]

Why not stick with what you have at this stage, maybe pull a head to see what you have so you can make a better choice for a cam swap. Get a wide band o2 and gauge and a bunch of jets and set your fuel and ignition up really well. You may be quite happy for a minimal cost.

[mauve66]

Last would be just doing a cam swap. I called Lunati. He suggested a Voodoo cam #60403 with a new set of springs.
Duration at 050 inch Lift  226 int./234 exh
Valve Lift with Factory Rocker Arm Ratio  0.494 int./0.513 exh
Lobe Separation (degrees)  110

This is the least expensive, around $700. But with the least gain. How much would just a cam and springs get me?
 


The last to choices are doable right now. The others will take some time, and a little (no a lot) of funds building.

$700 for a cam change???
I thought cams were in the 180-250 range...........

[Paul G]

Last would be just doing a cam swap. I called Lunati. He suggested a Voodoo cam #60403 with a new set of springs.
Duration at 050 inch Lift  226 int./234 exh
Valve Lift with Factory Rocker Arm Ratio  0.494 int./0.513 exh
Lobe Separation (degrees)  110

This is the least expensive, around $700. But with the least gain. How much would just a cam and springs get me?
 


The last to choices are doable right now. The others will take some time, and a little (no a lot) of funds building.

$700 for a cam change???
I thought cams were in the 180-250 range...........

A cam is in the $200 range, lifters around $100, springs around $300, gaskets and fluids..... you get the picture. Hot roddin aint cheap! 

[Challenger340]

IMO, after looking at your Dyno sheet again....
I'd do the Cam swap....I think you will be pleasantly surprised at the difference.

You may wish to look into the Comp xe274H as well....works very well.

[Paul G]

IMO, after looking at your Dyno sheet again....
I'd do the Cam swap....I think you will be pleasantly surprised at the difference.

You may wish to look into the Comp xe274H as well....works very well.

Thats the cam Comp suggested I use. They didnt say anything about replacing the stock springs. Dont know if I would still need to?

I have been playing around with jetting. Went down to 70's from the stock 72's. MPG increased and the motor still feels the same. Tried a set of 68's. Now getting a stumble right off idle. Cant do a big mean burn out like before. Maybe I found the limit with the 70's? I dont know. The ambient temps are over 100° now. That may be a factor.

I have pretty much decided that the big Charger needs a big motor. I am working on a two year plan to build a 440. Dont want to invest too much more $$ in the 360. If a cam swap could be done for cheap, in a weekend, and pick up some nice hp I might consider it. I just dont see the payback in spending $6 or 7$ grand on the 360 just to make the 500 hp number. The A body guys really have little choice in big blocks. Big hp 360 builds seem more common for them.  

[Chryco Psycho]

70 may be as lean as you want to go , if it starts to stumble it is obvouosly leaner but can be covered with more acc pump shot .
You will have a long parts list to do the 440 swap but the weight is not a big factor . Mine handles well even with the big block .

[mauve66]

Last would be just doing a cam swap. I called Lunati. He suggested a Voodoo cam #60403 with a new set of springs.
Duration at 050 inch Lift  226 int./234 exh
Valve Lift with Factory Rocker Arm Ratio  0.494 int./0.513 exh
Lobe Separation (degrees)  110

This is the least expensive, around $700. But with the least gain. How much would just a cam and springs get me?
 


The last to choices are doable right now. The others will take some time, and a little (no a lot) of funds building.

$700 for a cam change???
I thought cams were in the 180-250 range...........

A cam is in the $200 range, lifters around $100, springs around $300, gaskets and fluids..... you get the picture. Hot roddin aint cheap! 

ok, i missed the new springs part, and when i bought a cam back in 98 the lifters came with it for about 180 bucks, guess i'm not getting a motor anytime soon..........

[Paul G]

I am still playing around with this combo. Went back to the 70 primary jets. Also tried lighter springs in the secondary vacuum diaphragm. Right now it is 2 spring sizes lighter than stock. Holley's instructions say to keep going lighter until it bogs, or you can feel the secondaries opening, then go back up a spring size till no bog. It pulls smoothly all the way to 6 grand. Feels stronger on the top end now. I wish I knew what cam was in there?

Thing is, looking back, when I rebuilt the Holley a long while ago, I replaced everything that came in the kit along with new needle and seats and a new 6.5 power valve. I think that opened a can of worms. Never ran like it did before the carb rebuild. What I am starting to think is the original engine tuner did some weird things to the carb with his tuning method. He jammed the power valve so it stayed closed, I still have that power valve, and put 76 jets in the primary rather then the stock 72's, didn't do anything to the secondary side. I undid his tune with the new 6.5 power valve. That totally screwed up everything. So here I am now with the stock 6.5 power valve in it, going down from the stock 72 jets to 70's, rather than up in primary jet size like he did, along with lighter springs in the secondary. It seems to have made a world of difference. It doesn't feel like the same car I had on the dyno a couple of months ago.

That make any sense? Should I put the jammed up power valve back in with 76 jets? Or try to get the carb a little more dialed in trying things like this?

[cdr]

it needs the power valve for street driving,

[Cooter]

Usually, when I've encountered a carb with the power valve removed/blocked off, it has jets about 10 sizes up from stock. Like mentioned, this is only a race type mod as on the street, it is kind of a bear to drive like this. Sounds like you might be onto some more power in the carb.

[mauve66]

there are different power values based on your vacumm or something, someone will tell you
when i moved from mo to nv i had to change the power valve and accel pump and accel pump cam on the sixpak just to get it to idle in gear without raising the idle above 1K rpm

[Chryco Psycho]

Check vacuum at idle in gear , use a powervalve rated at least 1.5 inches below that . 6.5 is the most common if the vacuum is above 8" in gear .

[Scaregrabber]

You're on the right track with your tuning (obviously), it takes time but it's well worth it. I agree on using a vacuum gauge so you can ensure the PV is the right one.

Sheldon

[c00nhunterjoe]

If you are debating a cam swap then all of your current carb tuning is wasted effort. Do the cam swap, then tune the carb

[Cooter]

If you are debating a cam swap then all of your current carb tuning is wasted effort. Do the cam swap, then tune the carb

[Paul G]

If you are debating a cam swap then all of your current carb tuning is wasted effort. Do the cam swap, then tune the carb

I understand that but, It is interesting me to see how much I can do with what I have first. It's a learning experience for me, and really apreciate your help. I am trying to get the most out of it without spending too much $$ at first. My time is cheap and it's a great hobby.

I had the car on another chassis dyno. Link to that thread.        http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,95693.0.html

It seems what I have done to the carb, jetted down 2 sizes in the primary's, and went to a weaker spring in the secondary vacuum diaphram, has netted some gains. It is a totally different dyno machine. But the numbers are going up. If I can believe them? Gained 4 HP, and 58 TQ from the previuos dyno pull.

[Paul G]

If I can believe these numbers that little 360 is making 290 HP and 420 TQ at the crank using 20% losses. Thats a lot of torque for a stock stroke small block.

[cdr]

the only way to find out true HP is go to the drag strip,,,was it really 32 deg temp when it was tested? the correction factor was .95% so on that day it actually made 244 hp

[Paul G]

the only way to find out true HP is go to the drag strip,,,was it really 32 deg temp when it was tested

No it was not. We are in the 80's this time of year. Cloudy yesterday as well, humidity up a bit when clouds are overhead, maybe 20% humidity yesterday.

[cdr]

i added to my previous post,,the correction factor is not right then

[cdr]

if #s are correct your car at 3900lbs should run 14.15 @ 95 mph in the 1/4