Buying a 69-70, Need some advice

[vick79]

Hello Everyone, This is the first time shopping for my dream muscle car. Ive been lurking for about a year, but checking out what the market has to offer the last month. Im overwhelmed and confused about my choices and how to go about it. Feel like im working blind, Id like some advise.

Some background on my skill level - Im a hobbyist comfortable working on cars, including mechanical, electrical and bodywork (priming and paint, but NOT welding). I have a welder, but my welds are not great. Ive never taken an engine or transmission out of a car before, but ive done headgaskets, exhaust, suspension, diffs etc. Im used to working on BMWs, never a classis american car before. I would like to do as much work as possible myself in my garage. Buying any tools is not a problem, thats on a different budget.

I eventually want a clean 69-70 black/black RT 440 car with a restored clean interior, because i am OCD. I dont want a trailer queen, but something that has some "collectable" value, that i can drive on sundays.

Now I can find "restored" non-matching cars, non-correct colors available that fit the bill offered around 39-40k. The last thing I want is a bondo bucket, with "fresh" paint slapped over a different color. Some of these cars are sold by muscle car restoration companies that churn out cars quite often, do these companies usually do quality work? Its much less hassle buying a charger this way, but how much are these cars really worth? I think 40k is high, am i wrong? Do these cars retain any value down the road?

So then I feel like i should just buy a decent non-prestine car and do the restoration work myself over time. Then I get picky and decide if Im going to spend all this effort restoring, I want a #s matching, tx9 car. But im really not comfortable welding and handling rust, and I dont want to outsource too much of the work. The only thing I plan to outsource is chrome restoration and paint. I also dont want to be hunting down parts for the next 5 years, so its got to be complete and in running condition to begin with. Is it still possible to find cars like this? and what sort of price should I expect to pay for a unrestored car #s match car? 20-25k? what about a NOM car? Doing the work myself, could I expect to be able to achieve my goal of a clean car with a 20k restoration budget?

Any advice is appreciated.  Also if you have a car for sale contact me with details!

Thank you,
Vick

[XS29LA47V21]

   Well a book could be written, however a couple quick thoughts come to mind.  If you are very specific to certain details or rare options, which it sounds like you are with a rare color, black and it being an RT, avoid thoughts of having one found by certain time... say in a month or two, but it could happen and this is a great place discuss/network (I suppose unless a premium is paid to buy a "not for sale car").   If a very specific options like a real black RT is desired might consider, not necessary buy, but at least look at all you can find with those options... rough or nice.  Might consider cars condition & price with a second/third choice color you still love giving you more options.  In this market, it seems to me nice cars and rough builders are more common and the middle priced/shape cars are less common or not worth buying.  I have a 69X9RTSE (NFS) and not to be discouraging but it took me a very very long time to find what I had in mind for me. 

Good luck, I hope you find what you desire.    

[OldGuy]

First of all, I think it is going to take you a long while to find a black/black R/T with a 440 that has not been restored...and if you do find one, it is going to be more than the $20-$25K range you are shooting for.  If you are not comfortable dealing with rust and welding, that eliminates around 90% of the cars that fit with what you want...black/black, R/T, #'s matching or any other combo. If you do find what you want, in the price range and the criteria you have set, it will be the deal of your lifetime!

[vick79]

I needed to hear that. I really want a black r/t, but i dont want to molest a #s match charger (of a different color) by changing the color to black. So that said, I think i should toss my idea of #s match out the window and just go for a good quality non match charger. Maybe one day ill afford that #'s match tx9 hemi charger i saw on cars-on-line

Anyone heard or have any experience with Atlas muscle cars in TX?

[charger_fan_4ever]

IMO there are two cars to buy. A restored car that has been done right with documentation of the work usually $$$ top dollar, or a project in a box. Most of the time drivers with rust bubbling through the paint really requires as much work as a project as you need to strip it to bare metal and start over.

Atlas usually have black r/ts popping up on ebay often. I have heard mustang guys say they do quickie jobs on the fords. You would need to see in person but the chargers on the bag usually look nice. Maybe camera angles dunno.

[vick79]

IMO there are two cars to buy. A restored car that has been done right with documentation of the work usually $$$ top dollar, or a project in a box. Most of the time drivers with rust bubbling through the paint really requires as much work as a project as you need to strip it to bare metal and start over.

Atlas usually have black r/ts popping up on ebay often. I have heard mustang guys say they do quickie jobs on the fords. You would need to see in person but the chargers on the bag usually look nice. Maybe camera angles dunno.

That first part hit the nail on the head. I dont want to pay for a half ass resto. I think i need to man up and build a car myself. There is a great project rt available with all the metal work done ready forpaint. Might go for it.

[Dino]

These guys are spot one, only thing I want to add is that I restored many cars before and I have also restored many restorations, ie removed a few pounds of bondo and started over.  If it is not fully documented with a ton of detailed pictures then do yourself a favor and do not buy the car!

You asked if these shops do good work?  In short usually not.  Unless it's an extremely rare car, the cost of a full resto is always higher than the value of the car.  Good resto shops work on demand, the customer goes to the shop and works out a deal.  When shops buy cars to flip then you need to walk away, simple as that.

Find yourself the most complete and unmolested car possible to save yourself a ton of mysery.  They all need a lot of work so you might as well buy one that hasn't been repainted 17 times.

It seems you do know your way around cars but the lack of welding skills is going to kill you, my advice:  take a class or two, you won't regret it.

One more thing, outsourcing paint is easier said than done, the good shops usually will not paint a car if they don't know what's under the primer, they can't take the chance.  You may want to start finding a solution for that before you start your journey.

I understand the matching numbers thing, I'm the opposite, I'd never want one because I'd feel obliged to redo the car as the fender tag states.  I was lucky to find an R/T clone, down to the extra leaf spring but it was originally a 318 car so I don't feel bad painting it any color I want.

All Chargers go up in value but again unless it's a rare car you may want to look at a different type of car altogether if resale value matters.

Oh and once you fire up that 440 in your black Charger, I can say you likely couldn't care less what the fender tag or badges say. 

[vick79]

Im glad I posted this question before i impulsively bought a car. I think i have a good idea what im looking for now.

Dino, the points you make really clears a few things up. I came across the issue with the paint shop last year, luckily the high end shop had me sign a waiver and did it. they thought my prep work was pretty solid actually but still didnt want to ruin their reputation if it bubbles. I completely forgot about that till now. Welding class thats a great idea! Gonna get on that! 

Think this one might be a good starter (albiet slighly pricey) project car?

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=280866446465#vi-content

[bakerhillpins]

I know how you feel about all this. I was looking for a lot of specific things on a fender tag too and ended up with darn near everything I wanted. In my case however I was looking for a Blue Charger yada, yada, yada. Took me close to 2 yrs to find it. What I learned over that time was "get used to disappointment" but keep the faith.   It gets long in the tooth to search the same places close to every night and ask the same questions over and over again and oh the phone calls.    Stick with it and your time will come. Another good thing to do is make a list of all of the options/features of the car that you want and then prioritize them. Work through in your head which ones you can live without. I actually had a rather complicated matrix of options that changed priority when certain other options were not available... I could live with out AC if I got a 4spd car... I could live without a Blue car as long as the interior was white/blue/black.. etc. Certain things were non starters, like the lack of a Fender tag that matched the VIN/Body. Frankly, I know I drove a few folks nuts trying to explain how it all worked...

Anyhow, Last fall I ended up picking up a nice non matching (70 block) 69 RT with broadcast sheet and tag in the price range you are looking in.

Good luck  

[edit] 

Oh yea, take the time to hit a few car shows and check out the cars.. It was a really great opportunity to see different car colors and options up close and personal.

[vick79]

I know how you feel about all this. I was looking for a lot of specific things on a fender tag too and ended up with darn near everything I wanted. In my case however I was looking for a Blue Charger yada, yada, yada. Took me close to 2 yrs to find it. What I learned over that time was "get used to disappointment" but keep the faith.   It gets long in the tooth to search the same places close to every night and ask the same questions over and over again and oh the phone calls.    Stick with it and your time will come. Another good thing to do is make a list of all of the options/features of the car that you want and then prioritize them. Work through in your head which ones you can live without. I actually had a rather complicated matrix of options that changed priority when certain other options were not available... I could live with out AC if I got a 4spd car... I could live without a Blue car as long as the interior was white/blue/black.. etc. Certain things were non starters, like the lack of a Fender tag that matched the VIN/Body. Frankly, I know I drove a few folks nuts trying to explain how it all worked...

Anyhow, Last fall I ended up picking up a nice non matching (70 block) 69 RT with broadcast sheet and tag in the price range you are looking in.

Good luck  

[edit] 

Oh yea, take the time to hit a few car shows and check out the cars.. It was a really great opportunity to see different car colors and options up close and personal.

Hah Ive been up late every night this week, and i cant sleep thinking of this!! I dont think i can last 2yrs though!! Luckily my wife thinks the Charger is a great idea so she hasnt given me hell for ignoring her a bit lately.   I just need to find a car before she changes her mind.

[bakerhillpins]

My wife was very good about the entire process but she did express dismay at how long it was taking and how I was checking out every evening.. Heck, at one point I even called a good friend that was helping me sift through all the cars and his wife said "hasn't he found a car yet?"   

[myk]

I think it's great that you're willing and able to do much of the work yourself, but if I had the money and was in your position I would wait it out like 'Baker says and try to find the best possible car for the money so it needs as little work as possible.  Setting out to deal with a "fixer-upper" is never half as easy as you think and usually triple the cost of what people set out to spend in their heads.  Heaven forbid you start working on a project car and then burn yourself out on it, unless building it with your own hands is what you're trying to do; I can only imagine the high you get when you build your car yourself...

[440]

I think it's great that you're willing and able to do much of the work yourself, but if I had the money and was in your position I would wait it out like 'Baker says and try to find the best possible car for the money so it needs as little work as possible.  Setting out to deal with a "fixer-upper" is never half as easy as you think and usually triple the cost of what people set out to spend in their heads.  Heaven forbid you start working on a project car and then burn yourself out on it, unless building it with your own hands is what you're trying to do; I can only imagine the high you get when you build your car yourself...

I couldn't agree more. My car was an older resto and I thought I'd give it a quick freshen up. My budget blew out 3x the original budget and the car still isn't done a year later. I've been burnt out too... So save yourself the hassles and get exactly what you want. It's better to save an extra 5k for the better car you want instead of the right now car that will need 10k down the track.

[Mike DC]

               
My two cents:  If you are going to hold out for original no-rust bodywork then don't get into the Mopar hobby.

The build quality of these cars was crappy when they were made 45 years ago.  Even the well-maintained Arizona cars have rusted-out trunkfloors by now.

[Dino]

Im glad I posted this question before i impulsively bought a car. I think i have a good idea what im looking for now.

Dino, the points you make really clears a few things up. I came across the issue with the paint shop last year, luckily the high end shop had me sign a waiver and did it. they thought my prep work was pretty solid actually but still didnt want to ruin their reputation if it bubbles. I completely forgot about that till now. Welding class thats a great idea! Gonna get on that! 

Think this one might be a good starter (albiet slighly pricey) project car?

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=280866446465#vi-content

Non matching numbers and in a million pieces.  For that price it should be assembled and done.   

Mike makes a good point, mopars rust while you're looking at them.  But if you find an original car you'll see how bad it is before you make the call.  If it's bondo'd over and has a nice shiny coat of paint, you have no idea what you have and that's where people get burned.

Expect to find a car that needs work, that's just how it is.  But if you know what the work needed is then you can decide if it's something you want to tackle or not. 

First order of business is knowing these cars in and out and know what to look for.  This site as an incredible amount of information to help you on your search.

As Baker said, it's going to be very hard to find the exact car you want so you may have to compromise.  Make a list of what you really want from that Charger and take it from there.  Heck post it here so we can tell you if it's feasable or not.

[charger_fan_4ever]

Saw this for you today. Looks pretty solid real r/t and its go mango orange 

Price is fair IMO

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/1970-Dodge-Charger-R-T-good-project-/170830099621?pt=US_Cars_Trucks&hash=item27c64474a5

[Dino]

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/1970-Dodge-Charger-R-T-good-project-/170830099621?pt=US_Cars_Trucks&hash=item27c64474a5

"It is from Colorado and is very rust free. As usual the trunk floor is gone in the middle"

I don't think the seller knows what rust is....but it's got plenty of it.

[bakerhillpins]

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/1970-Dodge-Charger-R-T-good-project-/170830099621?pt=US_Cars_Trucks&hash=item27c64474a5

"It is from Colorado and is very rust free. As usual the trunk floor is gone in the middle"

I don't think the seller knows what rust is....but it's got plenty of it.

Ain't that the truth.       

[ACUDANUT]

Looks like it was really gutted out.  I would pass at 11,000.

[charger_fan_4ever]

I have yet to see a charger (project/driver) thats spent any amount of time outside that does not have pinholes in the trunk pan even california cars. The ebay car trunk pan is $400 a lower AMD 1/4 patch panel is $200. Looks like some rust around the rear window surprise lol. Other than that the floors,under hood and the rest of the body panels look pretty decent. For sure you'd need to look it over in person first. Us rustbelt guys get excited over cars with such little rust  

$18k for this car somewhat local thats suppose to be from cali too. Trunk has holes and lower 1/4 too.
Oh and its not an r/t.

http://www.lespac.com/vehicules/antiques-collection/vallee-jonction/d-69-dodge-charger-se-383-magnum-de-californie-LPaZZ25541404WWcpZZ50WWgrZZ12

I was black balled on a local forum when someone made a topic about it saying it would be sold within a week. I said it wasn't the deal of the centry and it was worth more like $10k being a non r/t and might get close to the asking price if it was a r/t.

[Dino]

I have yet to see a charger that does not have pinholes in the trunk pan even california cars. The ebay car trunk pan is $400 a lower AMD 1/4 patch panel is $200. Looks like some rust around the rear window surprise lol. Other than that the floors,under hood and the rest of the body panels look pretty decent. Us rustbelt guys get excited over cars with such little rust  

$18k for this car somewhat local thats suppose to be from cali too. Trunk has holes and lower 1/4 too.
Oh and its not an r/t.

http://www.lespac.com/vehicules/antiques-collection/vallee-jonction/d-69-dodge-charger-se-383-magnum-de-californie-LPaZZ25541404WWcpZZ50WWgrZZ12

I was black balled on a local forum when someone made a topic about it saying it would be sold within a week. I said it wasn't the deal of the centry and it was worth more like $10k being a non r/t and might get close to the asking price if it was a r/t.

That 70 will be a lot more work than it looks, once you start media blasting a whole lot more metal will disappear.

The green 69 is in really bad shape, that one will be missing most of the underside one you start work on it.  It's an SE which may bring the price up a bit since it has a following but I wouldn't even pay $18K for that if it was an R/T.  Your estimate of $10K is more in the neighborhood of actual value.  I paid a lot less than that green thing for mine and my car is far from perfect but in pretty damn good shape and it's a full R/T clone.

Are prices going up again lately or is it just me?

[440]

Seems to me like there have been more people wanting Chargers here this past week.

[charger_fan_4ever]

Are prices going up again lately or is it just me?

I always like to scope project 68-70s on CL ebay ect. Yes it seems the projects and finished cars are starting to creep up again. Nothing like the days of 05-06 but none the less they have gone up in the past couple years.

I agree for sure there is always more rust than what meets the eye once you hit it with a blasting.

Like mentioned above though pretty hard to come across a rust free project 2nd generation r/t or not. Seems like metal/bodywork its part of the muscle car game unless you poney up the big $$ for a car restored correctly. Problem is most car guys don't want to gamble 40-50k on a "restored" car. Hard to say whats underneath unless you have proof.

[Dino]

Seems to me like there have been more people wanting Chargers here this past week.

Yeah seems that way doesn't it?  I wonder if people are getting itchy about spring and car shows.  I dunno, I thought I got my car at a good price because the market was down but maybe I was just lucky.  

[Dino]

Are prices going up again lately or is it just me?

I always like to scope project 68-70s on CL ebay ect. Yes it seems the projects and finished cars are starting to creep up again. Nothing like the days of 05-06 but none the less they have gone up in the past couple years.

That's what I was thinking.  Funny, I bought my second Charger in '05 and I didn't really pay more for it than what they go for now.  Guess I was lucky back then as well.