Superbird WAS a mosquito fogger - only a couple of years later....It's fixed!!!

[70Sbird]

Ok, The saga of my superbird engine woes continues.

It's all back together and in the car. The car runs and drives better than ever, with one issue....It smokes - a lot. Predominantly from the passenger tailpipe but some is coming out of the drivers side as well (has factory "H" pipe). I understand that newly rebuilt engines need to break in but this is not right. I have driven the car just over 200 miles this last week and have used two Quarts of oil. and the back of the bird is covered with black oily residue.
When we dynoed the engine last fall after the last rebuild, all cylinders were +/- 5psi of 165psi, and the pcv line is currently dry. So, I'm assuming it's not going past the rings or the pcv would be oily.
Any suggestions what to start looking for?
Next plan is a hot compression test to verify nothing has changed with the rings, all I can figure is that its sucking oil into the intake ports from somewhere in the valley, or it's going past the valve seals or something else I havent thought of yet.

Mods, if this needs to be moved out of the Aero section feel free
Thanks for any suggestions
Scott  

[moparstuart]

What weight oil are u running? ?  Are the rings chrome moly?   

[70Sbird]

What weight oil are u running? ?  Are the rings chrome moly?  

moly top ring and using Joe Gibbs HR1 15W-50

[cdr]

probably the oil rings got damaged when pistons where installed,pcv would still look clean because the top 2 rings are sealing

[BigBlockSam]

 

[FLG]

Im gonna say your sucking in oil through the valley pan, did you use the paper gaskets? Its best to just use the metal pan with some silicone or if you can find it, hylomar (not sure on spelling but its good stuff)

Valve seals would be more of an issue during start up more than anything and you wont be using quarts very quickly.

[404NOTFOUND]

X2 for the intake gaskets. My experience with just a valley pan say it doesn't work. Sealer works for a short time but eventually gets sucked in the motor. Even if sealer does seem to work, how can you be sure? With the excellent Felpro gaskets, you are sure. It's a cheap and easy way to eliminate one variable before you start digging deeper.

[tan top]

 oh no sorry to hear this !! what a bummer 

im thinking valley pan tray too 

[b5blue]

  Pull the intake, as rebuilt engines vary in tolerances there is no one solution on the valley pan install.( According to Larry Shepard ) That's why there are several thicknesses of paper gaskets for the intake available. You can lay the intake on top of the assembled block and heads and check everything with a feeler gauge. The variance of deck height, head milling, head gaskets used and so on will change required thickness. I ran into this after changing the heads on my six pack 440. 
  I had oil on top of my valley pan somehow look there first. It took 2 or 3 hundred miles for this to happen to me.     

[charger_fan_4ever]

Leakdown test would be a good check. Or poor mans leakdown test if you don't have access to a leakdown guage. Take the compression on all cyl's then add a teaspoon of oil and do the test again. If you have cyls with a big gain that would be where i'd start digging. If all seems well witht he #'s then pull the intake.

[Hemi Runner]

Stick a bore scope down the intake and look at the backs of the intake valves. If they're black and caked, you'll know it's a valve guide/intake valley leak issue. The fix for that is to bring over your checkbook and you can leave with a hemi

[BPTRacing]

Scott,

If you need a hand, I have leak down tester, compression tester, and a bore scope. I am located in Champaign IL

Scott Spies

[moparstuart]

Your the man scott        scott & scott 

[TheAutoArchaeologist]

It was just a little oil.  Now the front of my car will NEVER rust.  So THANK YOU.



Ryan

[moparstuart]

It was just a little oil.  Now the front of my car will NEVER rust.  So THANK YOU.



Ryan

[cdr]

Scott,

If you need a hand, I have leak down tester, compression tester, and a bore scope. I am located in Champaign IL

Scott Spies

if the oil rings are damaged, compression & leak down wont show anything wrong,bore scope might help

[BPTRacing]

Scott,

If you need a hand, I have leak down tester, compression tester, and a bore scope. I am located in Champaign IL

Scott Spies

if the oil rings are damaged, compression & leak down wont show anything wrong,bore scope might help

OK, I also have access to a facility and equipment to completely disassemble the motor and put it back together. Even changed rod and main bearings in my 512 twice without ever taking the motor out of the car.

[moparstuart]

Scott u are awesome 

[cdr]

Scott,

If you need a hand, I have leak down tester, compression tester, and a bore scope. I am located in Champaign IL

Scott Spies

if the oil rings are damaged, compression & leak down wont show anything wrong,bore scope might help

OK, I also have access to a facility and equipment to completely disassemble the motor and put it back together. Even changed rod and main bearings in my 512 twice without ever taking the motor out of the car.

hey scott i wasn't trying to be a butt head,just givin my  

[70Sbird]

Thanks for all the response - especially Scott!
I've been travelling last week for work and then drove a bus full of teenagers up to Wisconsin Dells over the weekend, so I havent had much time to go after this issue. I'm going to do a compression and leak down test first as was suggested, but my gut is leaning toward the valley pan, the block was slightly decked (just enough to true things up) when the block was prepped and the heads have been milled. the intake is an out of the box Edelbrock performer, and the valley gasket is simply the fel-pro steel piece. With any kind of luck I'll get a few minutes to chase my oil burning this coming weekend.

[70Sbird]

Just wanted to throw an update out there and share what I found inside the engine (at least what I found last fall when I finally opened it up)
As many here correctly guessed, the intake gasket was leaking like a sieve! This issue has now consumed almost another year of the cars (and my) life but hopefully this is now fixed!
I ran the compression and leakdown tests and the results were good (as expected) the worst cylinder was only leaking 12% @50 psi. compression was also even and around 160 psi. I then pulled the intake and found 7 of the 8 intake ports absolutely soaking in oil! The engine only had about 600 miles on it at this point since the rebuild and dyno so all of this carbon/sludge/crap accumulated in just that short amount of time while drinking a quart of Joe Gibb's finest ever hundred miles. Here's what it looked like inside.

[70Sbird]

Since the heads are ported and the edelbrock intake looked to also be pushing the intake valley pan out of alignment I checked the mating of the intake (was new) to the heads and found .008" of an inch more clearance at hte bottom of each mating surface than the top. I ended up having the intake angles milled to bring the mating sealing surfaces back into alignment and buying an intake valley plate and seperate intake gaskets. I also ditched the stamped Mopar Performance rocker arms (that were measured at an actual 1.3: 1 ratio!) for some PRW 1.5:1 stainless steel rockers. Hopefully that will get my camshaft opening the valves as intended now and should also improve my performance.

[70Sbird]

So.....
After another 6 months of the car being down, I finallly got things buttoned up and running again - almost two years to the day of opening the engine up for the first time and deciding to go completely through it after finding a damaged crank and other issues. The car fired right up and seems a bit "lopier" at idle. I reset the timing and carb, checked everything out and hopefully am ready for a season of driving again.
Now if spring and dry roads would only hurry up and get here I'm anxious for a test drive!

[TheAutoArchaeologist]

So when are we going barn find hunting again?  I am heading over to Macomb this Spring....

I'm happy to hear that the Blue Bird is in tip top shape again.  I can't wait to see her out and about.

[Dave Kanofsky]

Good Luck Scott!

A good break in road trip would be the MoPower Madness show:

May 19, 2013 MoPower Madness Car Show & Swap at Dupage County Fairgrounds 9am -4pm
2015 Manchester Rd. Wheaton, IL. 60187 Ron - 630-553-2203

http://www.chicagolandmopar.com/forum/content.php

[hemi68charger]

Very good Scott.. Hopefully the Spring of 2013 will be an enjoyable one for you........   

[billssuperbird]

 

[tan top]

 

[mauve66]

goodluck 

[70Sbird]

Well......the saga STILL continues.....I'm driving this car to the meet in Detroit next week so I though I would drive it for a few days to get any remaining bugs worked out
Since this is now the wettest spring on record (really!) here in Central IL, I haven't had the car out hardly at all. I got it out last week and after a few drives I started noticing oil running off the back of the engine, and specifically from under the intake! I couldn't believe that this was possible since the valley plate and rework this winter, but nothing surprises me with this car anymore. So after looking at it for a while I shut the hood and went inside in frustration. Well curiosity got the best of me after a few hours so I went back out and pulled the intake, then almost was sick....not only was the oil pooling in the intake well, but also it was being sucked into the intake ports like before  
So here I go again, apparently Permatex ultra copper sealant (that I had used last time around) is NOT recommended for intake seals! So this time I went with Ultra Black and cut some .010 Aluminum sheet metal "covers" for the 4 rectangular "windows" on each head. I cut them about 0.10' to 0.15" wider than the sides of the window, then bent a flap in the botton to tuck in between the valley plate and head. I ground away all the paint and old sealer, then glued them in place with the black RTV, then sealed over the top with the RTV, added new gaskets, sealed some more around the base of the gasket and put the intake back on...fingers toes and everything else crossed that this problem is now fixed, I also discovered that my distributor is junk, my battery is bad and I also have one exhaust tip/tailpipe hanging by a hoseclamp!
Here are some pics of the latest go-round: the first two are the with the intake pulled and oil everywhere, the next two are the little aluminum plates I cut to try and block the oil and help support the gasket.

[70Sbird]

OK, now for the final assembly (and a few prayers!)
My wife ventured out into the garage (probably to investigate the source of the constant cursing) and got a few pictures of me in action - since I had too much black RTV all over my hands to use the camera.
So here are my little shields being sealed in place, the new gaskets on and then torquing up the intake. The last picture is the whole mess all reassembled. I'm letting everything cure for about 24 hours bedore I try it again. the weather is supposed to be decent so I'll probably drive the car to work tomorrow and see how it holds up

[Dave Kanofsky]

Good luck Scott, man this has been a character building adventure.

Prayers sent 

[mauve66]

 

[WINGIN IT]

Yeah man best of luck , finger's crossed. You've dealt with a lot on this car, I know how frustrating that can be.

Keep us posted.

[TheAutoArchaeologist]

You need to take a test drive up here.  Do some barn find hunting with me.  Get some miles on the car.

[62 Max]

Don't take this the wrong way but after reading all the above posts,if the block surface would have been decked and the head intake surface milled the correct amount in relation to the block,you would not have had this problem,if neither one was untouched,same thing.I've been taking these things apart for forty + years + and never had a leak problem with the factory pan,I have actually reused them more than once.As for the paper gaskets,they were originally designed for the aluminum intake.Sometimes we are our own worst enemy,good luck with your endeavor.

[70Sbird]

62 Max, I agree completely!
My first two attempts were with the stock pan, this is now the 4th time for a sealing attempt. Unfortunately, this is a block and heads that did not begin life together and have had almost 40 - 45 years of likely repairs, modification and use. The block is newer than the heads and was only decked a minimal amount to "true up" the faces, less than .005" per side, the heads were also milled just enough to give a good sealing surface. However these were the machining operations I had done. Who knows what has transpired in the last 40 years!
I did drive the car to work today and there does not seem to be any significant leaking so far...
I'll take a closer look tonight around the intake and from underneath

[Arnie Cunningham]

Hey Scott,
I just wanted to pull this thread back up to see if you had any updates on how the engine is working.  I am looking at some very similar problems with my rebuild - smoking out of one bank, significant oil leak in the bellhousing area, valvetrain noise when warmed up, etc.
Can you list the problems/solutions you ran through?
Brennan

[70Sbird]

Hey Scott,
I just wanted to pull this thread back up to see if you had any updates on how the engine is working.  I am looking at some very similar problems with my rebuild - smoking out of one bank, significant oil leak in the bellhousing area, valvetrain noise when warmed up, etc.
Can you list the problems/solutions you ran through?
Brennan

Brennan,
Thanks for the wake up call! I havent been online much lately but I was just thinking about this 3 year old post a month or so ago and thought I could update it. The 'Bird is fixed and has used NO measurable amount of oil in the last 600 miles or so. 
I'll come back on here tomorrow with all the gory details and some pictures!
Scott

[moparstuart]

Hey Scott,
I just wanted to pull this thread back up to see if you had any updates on how the engine is working.  I am looking at some very similar problems with my rebuild - smoking out of one bank, significant oil leak in the bellhousing area, valvetrain noise when warmed up, etc.
Can you list the problems/solutions you ran through?
Brennan

Brennan,
Thanks for the wake up call! I havent been online much lately but I was just thinking about this 3 year old post a month or so ago and thought I could update it. The 'Bird is fixed and has used NO measurable amount of oil in the last 600 miles or so. 
I'll come back on here tomorrow with all the gory details and some pictures!
Scott

[Aero426]

Hey Scott,
I just wanted to pull this thread back up to see if you had any updates on how the engine is working.  I am looking at some very similar problems with my rebuild - smoking out of one bank, significant oil leak in the bellhousing area, valvetrain noise when warmed up, etc.
Can you list the problems/solutions you ran through?
Brennan

Brennan,
Thanks for the wake up call! I havent been online much lately but I was just thinking about this 3 year old post a month or so ago and thought I could update it. The 'Bird is fixed and has used NO measurable amount of oil in the last 600 miles or so. 
I'll come back on here tomorrow with all the gory details and some pictures!
Scott

You should drive it to Milwaukee Sunday morning. 

[70Sbird]

Well the title says it....It's fixed!
If you have read the previous posts (and the previous thread on all my engine issues too) this is a welcome announcement!
and the root cause of the issue was.........The heads!
I had my original "906" heads ported and rebuilt when I did the engine back in 2011, apparently there have been so many continuing issues that I never got a chance to eliminate them as the problem as I was to busy chasing "other" issues and what I thought was the more likely culprit. The heads were magnafluxed before the porting and rebuild, I can only assume now that maybe due to some porosity, new cracks were uncovered in areas that got "thin". A leak path developed between the pressurized oil passages to the rockers and an intake port. unfortunately by the time I would take it back apart (to reseal the intake for the 10th time) the oil had traveled all over the inside of the intake and heads so I never could tell where exactly it was coming from.
So, In desperation after yet again trying to fix the problem by sealing the intake I ordered a set of 440 Source Stealth Aluminum heads. I had a local shop do a thorough inspection and update the valve spring retainer hardware. Bolted my rockers on them and put it all back together.
Everything seemed fine and after a few hundred miles the oil level on the didstick had not moved!
I was happy! ....for a while.....

[70Sbird]

OK, so all was well for a few hundred miles but I was noticing a progressively worsening oil leak that appeared to be coming from under the intake and running down the back of the engine.......
I was dreading taking the intake off again (although by now I could do it in my sleep) but there was a significant enough oil puddle that formed shortly after any "spirited" driving that I had no choice...see the first picture of my 'Bird marking it's territory in the parking lot at work after a 20 minute 60 MPH+ commute.
So Once again I pulled the intake off and was greeted with the "depression" in the center of my valley plate filled with oil, How the hell could that have happened again??
Now I have new heads that seal to the valley plate, good gaskets, plenty of sealer??
the visual was identical to the pooling oil seen in the post above from 2013 reposted below for reference

[70Sbird]

Once again I'm fussing and cussing and ready to just sell this turd! It looked like all the sealer was still intact between the heads and valley plate and I couldn't see any clear leakpath. So, I got a little smarter (big step for me) and bought a plastic hose connection for an irrigation system that was pretty close to the size of my PCV valve. Using a short section of vinyl hose I adapted my leakdown tester to the sprinkler connection and stuck it into my PCV valve grommet and pressurized the crankcase to about 15 PSI.
I then mixed up some dishsoap and water and with a brush coated the entire length of both head to valley plate joints and looked for bubbles.....nothing.
I did by accident kind of feel some air moving on the back of my hand though as I was brushing the soapy water on the joint. so I started painting the whole valley with the mixture and suddenly Mr. Bubble and his whole family suddenly appeared right at a bend in the middle of the valley plate!
I stripped off what was now at least a couple layers of paint and found a crack.
With the one piece valley plates at least one of the heads has to come off to remove it and I wasn't going for that again....
So, I cleaned up the area, migged a couple of ugly welds across the crack to keep it from growing or opening up again and covered the whole seam with my new best friend JB Weld. Then I bolted the intake back on for hopefully now the last time!

[70Sbird]

It's been a couple hundred more miles and so far so good!
I have not added any oil (even with the leak) since the last oil change, now about 800 miles ago and the dipstick still shows full
The car runs great and I even took it to a local shop's Dyno Day for a bit of a power check and shakedown!
The 'Bird made 324HP and 389 ft/lbs of torque on a known "conservative" Dyno.
Doing the math based on a few other cars that made pulls with previous dyno sheets and more data, I believe that the crank HP is somewhere in the neighborhood of 400 HP and torque is near 500 ft./lbs.
AND IT'S NOT USING OIL ANYMORE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Talladega here I come!

[70Sbird]

You should drive it to Milwaukee Sunday morning. 
[/quote]

Doug,
If I didnt have a prior committment Sunday at noon, I would make the trip!

[Mytur Binsdirti]

Old cars; even when you use all new parts, it's always something.  We are all gluttons for punishment.

[Dave Kanofsky]

Congrat's Scott!
Sorry to hear the trials it has put you through.

Glad it's all good now.

[Arnie Cunningham]

 

[hemi68charger]

Old cars; even when you use all new parts, it's always something.  We are all gluttons for punishment.

I couldn't agree with Mark more...... We are all gluttons...... But, it puts a smile on our faces when we "solve' the problem or make something look better.

Scott, very glad things are better now for you.... 

[Aero426]

Old cars; even when you use all new parts, it's always something.  We are all gluttons for punishment.

Seems like a lot of the time, the "new" parts are the problem.    With genuine factory suuport gone for decades, I hear more and more about unreliable, defective replacement parts. 

[70Sbird]

Old cars; even when you use all new parts, it's always something.  We are all gluttons for punishment.

Seems like a lot of the time, the "new" parts are the problem.    With genuine factory suuport gone for decades, I hear more and more about unreliable, defective replacement parts. 

This is becoming more and more common. As the market for these parts for "older" vehicles shrinks it seems like the quality of what parts are available "off the shelf" is waning. Remind me to tell you sometime about the upper radiator hose I bought from O'Reilly's it took 4 visits to finally get something acceptable!

[Mopar John]

Scott,
I hope to see you with the Superbird at Talladega!
MJ