Tubular K Member

[Memphis Mopar]

XV level 1 kit is up tp 2250.00 now unless there is some sort of discount?

[Musicman]

Funny that no one has mentioned Hotchkis yet 

Personally, I have yet to see a system that I like 100%... Each system has it's own good points and bad. It's almost like the guys designing these things have tunnel vision. They seem to be fixated on just one aspect of a design and ignore the rest. This guys design addresses this issue, and that guys design addresses that issue, etc,etc... it seems as though no one is looking at the big picture.

Close but no Cigar

[Budnicks]

Musicman "Personally, I have yet to see a system that I like 100%... Each system has it's own good points and bad. It's almost like the guys designing these things have tunnel vision. They seem to be fixated on just one aspect of a design and ignore the rest. This guys design addresses this issue, and that guys design addresses that issue, etc,etc... it seems as though no one is looking at the big picture".

Close but no Cigar                                                                              Hotchkis looks like good stuff !!, I personally haven't used them, except the rear Leafs & torsion bars on an old RR,  but have seen a few sets of adj. upper control arms & front & rear sway bars on friends cars, they seemed to like them....

[Budnicks]

I have never used or seen in person the XV Motorsports stage 1 or 2 stuff {that I know of}, it looks pretty nice... I may look into them in the future, how are they to deal with ??, will they do custom jobs also ??, to my specs. etc ??...

[Musicman]

Hotchkis looks like good stuff !!... have seen a few sets of adj. upper control arms & front & rear sway bars on friends cars, they seemed to like them....

Hotchkis relocated the upper control arms, which in my opinion is one of the best features of the Hotchkis system. I believe XV is the only other vendor that followed suite here. I like the Hotchkis stuff as well... I think it's incredibly over priced, I mean really, do you have to charge $300 for a set of hiem joints and a couple pieces of threaded bar stock. It is a nice bump up from stock though, and about half the price of the other guy.... and you don't have to run gay wheels on your car.

My car handles pretty well as is, so if you want me to spend $5000 - $8000 in upgrades from the other guy to make it handle better. Then it better handle like a frigg'n go-cart when it's done, not just a little better or marginally better... it better be $5000-$8000 better, and I don't see that happening.

At the moment I believe XV is most famous for having the worst customer service on the planet.

[HPP]

XV level 1 kit is up tp 2250.00 now unless there is some sort of discount?

Your right. It had been sometimes since I checked with them and it seems their prices have jumped up like everyone elses. Still, at $2250, it is easily a grand cheaper than just an Alterkation front end kit and still maintains everything in a stock configuration, which is important to some people.

Funny that no one has mentioned Hotchkis yet 

Personally, I have yet to see a system that I like 100%... Each system has it's own good points and bad. It's almost like the guys designing these things have tunnel vision. They seem to be fixated on just one aspect of a design and ignore the rest. This guys design addresses this issue, and that guys design addresses that issue, etc,etc... it seems as though no one is looking at the big picture.

I purposely avoided Hotchkis because they do not offer a tubular cross member and they do not offer an all inclusive package. You still have to piece their kits together to get everything they offer. 

Reagarding having only big picture aspect of design, would you really want to see simply one approach that is copied by everyone? Whats the point in that? Each addresses deficiencies in unique ways that they feel are best. XV does it with increased wheel rates and matched shock rates. Hotchkis does it through geometry revision. Tubular frame offerings take another approach with weight and geometry. I personally see nothing wrong with a variety of approaches as each addresses uniquly different aspects of performance and how they acheive. They offer differing advantages as not all of us value the same approach even though we may all want similar results. This is a good thing.

My car handles pretty well as is, so if you want me to spend $5000 - $8000 in upgrades from the other guy to make it handle better. Then it better handle like a frigg'n go-cart when it's done, not just a little better or marginally better... it better be $5000-$8000 better, and I don't see that happening.

This is a classic example of diminishing returns that is lost on a lot of car builders. To simplify it, you can improve you car's ability from 75% to 90% with lets say $3000. To get to 96% requires an additional $3000. To get to 98% requires an additional $3000. To get to 99% requires an additional $3000. Say to make a 99% capable car is going to cost you $12,000. If you are only a 96% driver, why spend the extra? Because as human beings, we tend to be vain in our ability, or simply want to differentiate ourselves from others. Mopar owners even more so. That isn't to say that buying a full tilt tubular custom system is a waste for everyone, but for a lot of driver's it is. That still doesn't mean that they can't spend their money that way if they choose. Like pointed out above, the ability to choice how to outfit my car and how to spend my money on it is a choice I prefer to have, even if there is not a end all be all "one" system out there. If you are a capable enough designer and driver that you can set up your car to be at 98% capability and you did it for half the cost, that is great! Just relaize not everyone else may be able to nor desire to match you in that ability. Like it or not, there are a lot of checkbook hot rodders in today's world. That's just the way it is.

At the moment I believe XV is most famous for having the worst customer service on the planet.

I've heard a lot of this the past year or two. I've only ever bought a couple of pieces form them and they arrived within a week of order, but I've read many more horror stories. I think they may have exceeded the phone company for their level of or lack therein, of customer service.

[Musicman]

This is a classic example of diminishing returns that is lost on a lot of car builders. To simplify it, you can improve you car's ability from 75% to 90% with lets say $3000. To get to 96% requires an additional $3000. To get to 98% requires an additional $3000. To get to 99% requires an additional $3000.

I think you've hit the nail right on the head there. 

Like it or not, there are a lot of checkbook hot rodders in today's world. That's just the way it is.

... and apparently they are the targeted audience (consumer) 

[thedodgeboys]

It's been said many times

How fast do you want to go depends on how much you want to spend...

How good do you want it to Handel....

Hotchkis has the TVS kits that include everything.

[Musicman]

Hotchkis has the TVS kits that include everything.

Well not everything... No Torsion bars, no shocks, no fast ratio idler & pitman arm, no greasable pivot shafts or bushings, no lower ball joints, no shackles... but that's OK too, it lets you decide just how carried away you want to get with some items. On the flip side of that too of course, Hotchkis does offer everything they have individually for those who may only want part of the system. You do have a choice...

[Budnicks]

Hotchkis looks like good stuff !!... have seen a few sets of adj. upper control arms & front & rear sway bars on friends cars, they seemed to like them....

Hotchkis relocated the upper control arms, which in my opinion is one of the best features of the Hotchkis system. I believe XV is the only other vendor that followed suite here. I like the Hotchkis stuff as well... I think it's incredibly over priced, I mean really, do you have to charge $300 for a set of hiem joints and a couple pieces of threaded bar stock. It is a nice bump up from stock though, and about half the price of the other guy.... and you don't have to run gay wheels on your car.

My car handles pretty well as is, so if you want me to spend $5000 - $8000 in upgrades from the other guy to make it handle better. Then it better handle like a frigg'n go-cart when it's done, not just a little better or marginally better... it better be $5000-$8000 better, and I don't see that happening.

At the moment I believe XV is most famous for having the worst customer service on the planet.

Thanks for the responce...

[Bobs69]

Does anyone know of a manufacturer of an affordable K member for a 69 Charger

Magnum Force and the like all want $3000.00+ for theirs, ridiculous

Bowtie and Ovals can get the for $1000 and less. Seems like mopars are being punished for being superior

With all of us here, and the talent, and frugal nature..................could we not all buy say an alter K tion kit and copy the damned thing and share plans?  Or maybe someone would like to quietly .........................share/sell.

[Budnicks]

I have built a couple, years ago now, when none was making anything for suspension for Mopars in general... It's a hell of allot of work starting from scratch, especially if you don't have the proper tubing benders & dies or a jig built already, it would be much easier to copy someones who already did all the engineering for you already or build a jig off you original K-Frame 1st... It's not for the novice to build one from scratch, the time spent on the 1st one might be worth it by the 4th or 5th one built/fabricated if you could get someone to pay for the time & materials cost & worth... I say go for it if your an adventurist, it will take a minimum of probably 40+hrs a good knowledge of suspension dynamics & $300-$500 in parts/tubing fro both the K-Frame & A-Arms or control arms, depending on materials used, without a rack & pinion box another $500 minimum for rear steer {like stock type B-Bodies boxes} & $250 for a Pinto/Mustang II rack with no tie rod ends, or spindles, or bearing, then there are brakes, new stuff $250 minimum for anything decent, then depending on if you want a front or rear steer or use coil overs $300+ or stock style torsion bars $200+, then heim or poly rod ends for the A-Arms or control arms $200+ easily for middle of the road suspension quality rod ends, then universal joints & steering shafts maybe $100+ for the steering adaption to a either manual steering column or a power steering column {they are different lengths}, from start to finish the 1st unit, probably could trim the cost a bunch by the 4th or 5th unit, if you can get the parts at a discount buying in bulk... As you can see it adds up pretty fast unless you can get a storming deals on parts... I see $1500-$1600 easily & upwards of $2000 depending on components chosen, much higher if you use a hot dog sway bay or hot dog big brakes, then $2500-$3000,that's if you know what your doing....

[Supercharged Riot]

I'll just buy the damn thing what the hell. Life is short and you only live once.
I do want better handling and I want to make better room for bigger brakes and wheels.
And I'll even post pics. 
I havent seen B-body installs in action so far.

[HPP]

It's been said many times

How fast do you want to go depends on how much you want to spend...

How good do you want it to Handel....

Exactly. Lateral accelleration cost just like linear accelleration costs. If you want to take the time to learn all about the dynamics and how you can alter them to create or buy less expensive parts and integrate those into your vehicle, you can build a considerably improved handling package for significantly less than you can buy an off the shelf unit. However, if you aren't willing to pay in time, then you have to pay in cash to buy the knowledge someone else put in to the manufacturing and collection of the parts in the package you want to use.

With all of us here, and the talent, and frugal nature..................could we not all buy say an alter K tion kit and copy the damned thing and share plans?  Or maybe someone would like to quietly .........................share/sell.

Aside from the fact that this is copy infringement, someone has already done something like that.  Control Freaks makes a round tube version of the square tube Alterkation. Guess what, they aren't a whole lot cheaper.

Aside from the tubing and knowledge to put this all together, we've got basic economic forces at work here. If you create a part, there simply is not enough demand for the part in the Mopar market to drive the cost down to levels on par with those offered by vendors for GM parts. If you want to buy cheap parts, you have to switch brand loyalty to a make that offers cheaper parts. Otherwise, you have to pay to play. That payment can come in cash, time, or experience, but you have to pay with at least one of them in almost every aspect of car construction. Maximizing suspension performace is not a whole lot different than maximizing engine output. If you were going to run your car in a Quick 16 class, you wouldn't buy your engine from a local hone and gasket kit rebuilder. You would either learn all about performance engine design, component sleection, and pay for dyno time to do it yourself or you would call up a reputable builder and order a bullet to meet your needs. Suspensions and chassis work the same way.

[Calif240]

One of the main issues with B-Bodies is that the weight is so far forward from the center of gravity of the car. Anything that can shift the center of gravity back to align with the geometric center will help improve handling. That being said, anything to reduce the weight off the front should help considerably. I'm looking at having a K-Frame fabricated from tubular steel that is a replica of the old frame as far as mounting points and bolts. That way, there is no ruining of the car. With the new K-Frame bolted in, a system like the Hotchkis TVS could go in (bolted in at the same points and correcting the geometry). Now the car has 80+ pounds shaved off of the front, plus a more geometrically optimal suspension system. All for $3500-$4000. I'm still researching this option, so maybe there's something Im missing. However, I haven't been able to find any major draw-backs of this plan. You guys that are much more experienced than me can probably think of a better option, so let us newbies know...

[HPP]

Simply substituting the original K frame for a similarly configured tubular K frame won't net you 80#. 15-20 would be more like it. Alterkation drops 80# because they eliminate or replace everything under the car that carries big weight, t-bars, control arms, steering box, plus the K frame. Yes, it is always beneficial to drop weight and especially to drop weight off the nose.

[pandamarie]

I just installed Magnum Forces tubular front suspension on my Daytona clone, came with 2" drop spindles mustang 2 spindles, Put wilwood 4 piston disc on those  and its all direct bolt on, gives tons of room with the rack and pinion for any engine you want with any oil pan, very well designed set up, the coil overs really stiffen up the suspension. Just waiting for the money to add their sway bar which will also add more support to the front frame section. I got the extra heavy duty package with the over sized hiem joints. Plenty of adjustability for as much camber as you feel like running.
No mater which tubular suspension you go with make sure you reinforce the shock towers, I added extra plate on the bottom to box it in and also reinforced the top then will be tying it all into the front bars to the cage to give as much bracing as I can get.

[Musicman]

Did you use their Forward Strut kit to reinforce the shock towers, or did you just make something up yourself. That's one of those things with the Magnum Force Kit... if your using the K-Member, you might as well finish the job with the strut kit and bushed motor plate, since it all goes hand in hand. 

[Supercharged Riot]

I just installed Magnum Forces tubular front suspension on my Daytona clone, came with 2" drop spindles mustang 2 spindles, Put wilwood 4 piston disc on those  and its all direct bolt on, gives tons of room with the rack and pinion for any engine you want with any oil pan, very well designed set up, the coil overs really stiffen up the suspension. Just waiting for the money to add their sway bar which will also add more support to the front frame section. I got the extra heavy duty package with the over sized hiem joints. Plenty of adjustability for as much camber as you feel like running.
No mater which tubular suspension you go with make sure you reinforce the shock towers, I added extra plate on the bottom to box it in and also reinforced the top then will be tying it all into the front bars to the cage to give as much bracing as I can get.

Got any pics of your setup intalled?

[Kern Dog]

Anything that can shift the center of gravity back to align with the geometric center will help improve handling. That being said, anything to reduce the weight off the front should help considerably.  I'm still researching this option, so maybe there's something Im missing. However, I haven't been able to find any major draw-backs of this plan.

If reducing and/or shifting weight to the MIDDLE is your concern, then why change to a FRONT steered system?
There is a thread on another forum regarding the RMS AlterKtion kit. There are good and bad points to this kit, but I have to side with Mopar Action magazine's Rick Ehrenberg. He is a strong proponent of maximizing the factory  setup, and he gives sound advice regarding why he feels that way. The stock fore/aft torsion bar design is a masterpiece in engineering. The suspension "spring" loads are transmitted to the lateral Torsion bar crossmsmber, allowing the lower control arms to be lighter than in a coil type suspension. This keeps weight low and to the middle. The rear mounted steering gear, while quite a pisser for exhaust clearance, also helps weight balance compared to front steer designs. I have yet to see anyone mount a rack and pinion setup to steer from behind front wheel centerline.
The aftermarket stuff looks cool. It SEEMS like a great idea after looking at a 40 year old, greasy k member and tie rods. I'm getting to a point where I understand that NEW tech isn't always better than the old stuff. These coil over setups may weigh less, but I'm bothered that these kits put stresses entirely on the 40 year old frame rails. The stock setup spread the load equally between the torsion bar crossmember AND the frame rails. Bump steer and turning radius is often worse with these kits. Ever heard of "Unisteer"?
Rick Ehrenberg ruffles peoples feathers sometimes, but I often agree with his logic.

[HPP]

Ehhh, don't get too wound up on the front steer weight difference, it isn't that huge. Sure putting a rack in front of the tire center line appears to be a bad thing from the weigh location position. But its overall weight is less than a steering box and related linkage all behind the center line so the net benefit is a positive weight loss on the nose of the car. Its location also has a very negligible impact on polar moment of inertia as well. You'll see more benefit from moving you battery than worrying about the rack location. I'd consider this a nit in the schem of things.

Now, that isn't to say that an aftermarket set up is all that and a bag of chips. IMO, the biggest advantages of tubular set ups is 1) the loss of weight and 2) the ability to rapidly change spring rates and ride height 3) component clearance. Since I'd venture a guess to say most classic mopar users rarely use their car in venues where they are concerned about and NEED to make a 50 to 100# spring rate difference, then advantage 2 is really no advantage. Components have been made for decades to fit within the confines of the stock set up so added clearance is mearly a nicety. The weigh loss thing is a tangible that benefits eveyr aspect of driving, so it is a real benefit, but, considering you loose 80# for $4500, that means that weight loss cost you $56 a pound to acheive. By way of comparison, taking 50# off your hood for $400 only costs you $8 a pound, so there are better ways of achieving weight lose.

IMO, while many of these aftermarket suspension do have some geometric improvements, these changes are not radical and can be duplicated with the stock layout if you take the time to understand them and adjust them, however, the biggest increase in handling performace with an aftermarket systems seems to come from having a better trained peson making selections of spring and shock rates that produce a more balanced feel to the car. Many layman simply stuff whatever suspension components the think is the hot set up underneath their ride and then complain about NVH or poor performance without understanding the why and wherfores in the balance. In that regard suspension set up is no different than engine building. Can anyone figure it out, yes, with some effort, but the results are often better for most people when they buy from a trained and seasoned builder.

[dkn1997]

One of the main issues with B-Bodies is that the weight is so far forward from the center of gravity of the car. Anything that can shift the center of gravity back to align with the geometric center will help improve handling. That being said, anything to reduce the weight off the front should help considerably. I'm looking at having a K-Frame fabricated from tubular steel that is a replica of the old frame as far as mounting points and bolts. That way, there is no ruining of the car. With the new K-Frame bolted in, a system like the Hotchkis TVS could go in (bolted in at the same points and correcting the geometry). Now the car has 80+ pounds shaved off of the front, plus a more geometrically optimal suspension system. All for $3500-$4000. I'm still researching this option, so maybe there's something Im missing. However, I haven't been able to find any major draw-backs of this plan. You guys that are much more experienced than me can probably think of a better option, so let us newbies know...

How do you get 80lb weight savings when a stock K member doesn't even weigh 80lbs to start with? 
I had a 68K floating around here for a while...even with strut rods still on it, it didn't weigh 80lbs.  I remember because I stored it on a shelf 6' up in my shed and I was easily able to get it up there myself. 

[Kern Dog]

It is more than the K member itself. The IRON steering chuck is a factor as well.

[71charger_fan]

If you like the stock torsion bar layout as I do, the CAP unit is a nice piece. Everything stays the same as factory except there's less weight. The CAP system is still around, they just sold out to QA1.

[dkn1997]

It is more than the K member itself. The IRON steering chuck is a factor as well.

True, but when I read his post it sounded like he thought that going from a factory K member to tube steel was going to save all this weight.  And He was talking about mounting a hotchkis TVS on it, no rack.