Why is the rust "here" and not "there?"

[myk]

So I was checking on the Charger at the body shop, and noticed that they had just pulled the back window.  Now, I've had holes/rust through about a half inch or so before the window and the window channel, so I assumed that the channel and everything under and about it must be rusted to all hell-but it wasn't?   The window channel, which I figured would be the perfect place for rust to live and breath is completely rust-free.  The only rust to speak of on the dutchman/filler panel is just before the channel.  What I don't get is how there would be issues with corrosion on the flat portion of the deck panel but not in the window channel itself?  I'm assuming that the sealant or goop they used to hold the window in place protected the channel? 

Much to the bodyshop's dismay I told them to cut that s**t out!

[Kern Dog]

Cars can get rusty in wierd places.
My 70 Charger had a vinyl top, and as most, it was rusty under there when I peeled it off. I had to replace about 1/3 of the rear window channel. The dutchman was fine. The trunk floor was pitted in the middle but the extensions and quarters were perfect.
I've seen cars have rust on the tops of the fenders but have totally clean bottom edges. I've seen cars with rusty fenders and cowl but clean from the doors back, while others are clean in the front with a rusty backside. This hobby is full of surprises.

[Ghoste]

You just never know where unprotected metal and moisture are going to meet one another, and the moisture doesn't have to be standing water either. I'm sure there are spots where the dissimilar metals thing comes into play as well.

[Dino]

You had one of those elusive cars where the window installer knew what he was doing and that protected the channel, everything else was exposed and flat panels tend to rust from the inside out because back then they didn't properly prep those areas.  Did you look at the underside of the dutchman?  I'll bet it has seen better days.  Not having a rooted channel is a big bonus though,

[bill440rt]

Rust is common in the tops of fenders where the hood hinges are. The bodies were assembled when coming down the line before the primer/paint stages, so often the mating surfaces between these areas were never properly protected. Hence the rust. Plus with the tires kicking up water, debris, etc didn't help matters any.
Trunks are often rotted in the middle because it's the lowest point. Moisture just lays in there.

The flat (bottom) part of the window channel is often OK, it is usually covered by thick goo and there are multiple layers there. Water just collects in the corners so that is a common rot area, and the vertical part of the channel sometimes did not have this goo in spots. The underside of the dutchman panel was often unprotected, so rust formed quickly. Take a dive in your trunk & look upward, the primer on it is very thin & it's usually covered in surface rust.

[Brock Lee]

I have seen many that were protected by goop, but rotted beside the goop because sediment accumulated and held moisture.

[myk]

Made the mistake of dropping by the body shop today pretty late, so no one was there to answer any questions I had.  One of the things I wanted to ask is, what the heck is this white stuff on the front fender?

There are various spots all over the car that have it now.  What is it, and why would they be applying it to only parts of the car?  I noticed that the texture is very smooth, so I know it isn't primer and as I said the locations are randomly on the car.  Also, correct me if I'm wrong but shouldn't the entire car be taken down to metal before anything is applied to it, whether it be filler, primer, whatever?  Lastly, since I clearly know nothing about bodywork, what are the proper steps to repainting a car?  I have to ask this because they're not done cutting out some of the rust spots on the car but it looks as if someone's already trying to sand the body down.  I always assumed you had to strip the car to metal first, then repair any body panels, prime, and then paint?  Any input you guys can provide would be very helpful.  

[Dino]

That's bondo my friend.

Did you take your car to a collision shop?  They will do the quickest job possible, no way they're going to take everything down to the metal.  Only first rate resto shops will do that, and then still I'd be on them like a hawk.  I've had plenty customers in the past that would show up several times a week with a camera and they would pay extra to have the metal reworked, under no circumstances did they want bondo on their car.  Pricey undertaking I can tell you!

You'll have to decide now how you want to proceed, what the budget for paint is and all that.  Taking a car down to metal and using as little filler as possible is going to cost you a ton.

[NHCharger]

Did you take your car to a collision shop?  They will do the quickest job possible, no way they're going to take everything down to the metal. 

Another question I have is do they plan on removing any trim off your car before they paint it? I see they're already doing body work and the base of the antenna, wheel lip trim and side marker light are still on.

[Cooter]

Wow, Can't believe you took it to a bodyshop...

[Dino]

Did you take your car to a collision shop?  They will do the quickest job possible, no way they're going to take everything down to the metal. 

Another question I have is do they plan on removing any trim off your car before they paint it? I see they're already doing body work and the base of the antenna, wheel lip trim and side marker light are still on.

Yeah you're getting the Maaco special there it seems.  Did you guys agree on a low cost option?

[myk]

Ugh, man I don't know what's going on.  That's also part of what I don't understand.  They've taken off some parts of the car's trim but not all of it.  For example they've taken out my back window, obviously the trim that goes with it, removed my taillights, bumper, the back wheel well trim, fuel cap, etc. but then like you guys said they left the front stuff on there.  And....how do you continue to saw off and weld on parts of the sheet-metal when they're already starting to apply bondo/filer?  It seems to me as if different people who specialize in different areas of bodywork are working on the car at different times.  As I said I don't know how this works.  The place actually doesn't do collision work, it's all custom stuff.  Actually, model-year wise my car is the newest one there so it's all 60's/50's cars.  All the other cars in the shop are being completely stripped down so again, I need to talk to the owners and figure out what exactly they're doing.  

So as I understand it, most places, unless it's a top-level 'resto-shop, will NOT take a car down to bare metal?  I didn't think there was any other way to 'prep a car.  Collision shops "don't" do this?  I didn't discuss anything about low cost options.  Hell the estimate I got didn't feel low-cost to me...

[Dino]

Ugh, man I don't know what's going on.  That's also part of what I don't understand.  They've taken off some parts of the car's trim but not all of it.  For example they've taken out my back window, obviously the trim that goes with it, removed my taillights, bumper, the back wheel well trim, fuel cap, etc. but then like you guys said they left the front stuff on there.  And....how do you continue to saw off and weld on parts of the sheet-metal when they're already starting to apply bondo/filer?  It seems to me as if different people who specialize in different areas of bodywork are working on the car at different times.  As I said I don't know how this works.  The place actually doesn't do collision work, it's all custom stuff.  Actually, model-year wise my car is the newest one there so it's all 60's/50's cars.  All the other cars in the shop are being completely stripped down so again, I need to talk to the owners and figure out what exactly they're doing.  

So as I understand it, most places, unless it's a top-level 'resto-shop, will NOT take a car down to bare metal?  I didn't think there was any other way to 'prep a car.  Collision shops "don't" do this?  I didn't discuss anything about low cost options.  Hell the estimate I got didn't feel low-cost to me...

At least the shop 'knows' how to do it, only question remains is why the hell they're not doing it to your car.  Having a chat with these guys is in order, be calm, cool and collective but do express your discust.

Collision shops will only take a car down to metal where it is absolutely necessary.  If the old paint has some thickness left it will be the base to build on.  You have to consider that the body shop owner has no idea what is under the paint.  A good craftsman can work filler so it looks like there is nothing there, but for all he knows there's an inch of bondo under that shiny paint.  Instead of taking the risk to dig in he will build upon it.
A typical job in a collision shop is to replace all the busted parts with new which are primered, colored and topcoated.  And any ajoining panel will simply be scuffed to take the sheen off and will be partially colored and the fully topcoated.  Oh and these are the ethical shops, you do not want to know how the sleazebags do it.

Being a custom shop these folks should understand that you want a bunch of progress shots, have you asked him if this is a possibility?  You want pictures, a shiny paintjob doesn't mean jack if the base isn't right and it's good to have proof that yours isn't going to be like that.  Remember that his idea of perfect may coincide with your idea of barely acceptable.

[69finder]

You don't HAVE to take a car to bare metal.  Original paint and original primers are very tough and if you can get to them that's usually good enough.
You HAVE to go to metal if there is rust (well you don't have to, but the rust will come back fairly quickly depending on climate).

Usually the steps are;

1) DA whole car with 40-80 grit to metal where it's needed otherwise to solid flat paint.
2) Fix rust (welding).
3) Epoxy
4) Either 2K High Build or Poly Surfacer
5) BLOCKING (I left out grits because everyone does it their own way).

Seal, paint.

I left out 'bondo' because most cars will need some.  But when it goes on is debatable.  Some put it on metal (after welding), some put it on after epoxy.  And usually it's a cycle of filler, 2K, block, filler, 2K, block etc.  Until the car is flat.  Then Seal, Paint it.

[myk]

Ok thanks for the responses, guys.  Well, I did talk with one of the guys working there over the phone-couldn't make it in person because of work.  He tells me that those white spots are the original paint on the car that's coming up as they're sanding it down.  If that's the truth then boy do I feel stupid.  Also, I was told that taking a car down to metal is, as a previous poster stated, only necessary if there's rust removal going on or they're doing deep body work which is......not the price point that they were under impression I wanted to go with.  They also told me that old paint/primer are excellent foundations for new primer/paint.  "Sigh."  This is stressful man, even moreso since I don't understand body work...

[69finder]

Factory paint (usually) is the best.  They spent resources that we just don't have to make that paint last.  Stripping to metal removes metal.  It's fun to do, but really, I love just getting to factory paint/primer as new primer LOVES to stick to it.

I'm not up on how Chargers were prepped, but looking at my car personally, I have faith in their paint process.  Rest easy

[myk]

Factory paint (usually) is the best.  They spent resources that we just don't have to make that paint last.  Stripping to metal removes metal.  It's fun to do, but really, I love just getting to factory paint/primer as new primer LOVES to stick to it.

I'm not up on how Chargers were prepped, but looking at my car personally, I have faith in their paint process.  Rest easy

I'll try to, lol.  I will keep watching them on the rust spots though-I told them it has to be cut and welded and I won't accept anything less.  I really wish that by now they would have eliminated ALL the rust spots before any sanding work, but again it feels as if there are different people with different skill sets working on the car at different times.  Is it bad for the freshly welded metal to be sitting on the car, unprotected? 

Question: what does bondo/filler look like when it's cured on a car?  A friend of mine told me that primer is either white or grey, bondo/filler is either reddish/brownish but not white...

[bill440rt]

They gave you a line of bullshit. The big white area on your fender is body filler, without question. It is applied over the TOP of whatever is underneath to it, I can see it in the pattern of the surrounding feather-edged areas.
And, there is already existing body filler on the top of that fender as well, I can see it in the photo.

If done properly, there is NOTHING wrong with having a little filler on a car. It is almost sometimes necessary to get a body arrow-straight.

What doesn't all look that great is that they are applying filler over existing filler, meaning there is likely an already existing problem to the top of that fender to begin with. Your repair is only as good as what is underneath, so if it fails down the road it could be that whatever existing filler was not removed. This is on top of the other separate issue that no disassembly work has been done to your car (grille, trim, bumpers, etc). With any proper paint job it should be removed.

Hate to burst anyone's bubble, but it looks like you're getting the quickie special. Have you seen their work product before? Did you get any referrals??

[69finder]

I won't comment on what the shop is doing as it's hard to know just from pictures, I will leave that to the experts.

But I do know a little bit about the chemicals involved in body work and my metal skills are pretty decent (not great but ok).  Body filler can be lots of colours (red, white, green, yellow, blue etc).  It really depends.  So colour isn't the best way to tell. 

Second, body filler sticks really well (chemical adhesion) to it's own kind of filler (ie same brand).  It adheres really well mechanically as well (ie 40 or 80 grit scratches) ontop of other materials.  But ideally, if there is 'other unknown' filler on the car, you strip it right off.

Why?  Because some filler can really absorb water and pull it right to the metal.  That water trapped to the metal usually leads to rust.  Most times I see filler, I see rust under it.  So, yeah, filler needs to be stripped RIGHT to metal.  And then figure out why it was there, fix the metal etc.

I personally don't even use filler any more.  There is a product called Poly filler that kicks ass.  It's like a sprayable filler.  But it seems to apply better, hold better, sand better.  And I don't use 2K high build anymore either.  Just metal work, epoxy, poly, block, seal paint.   

[69finder]

What is the original paint code colour for your car?   Seems like an obvious way to tell if they're BS'n you!  If they are, I would CHANGE shops.  I hate liars on principle and it seems like you would worry about this type of thing (I would too!).

[myk]

The car was originally white.  I dunno guys.  I think they just looked at my burger joint uniform and decided my car and I weren't worth the amount of work that needs to be done, or I don't have the money or whatever.  The Lincoln Continental and the split window Vette parked by us seem to be getting truck loads of attention, though...  As for references?  I had none.  I asked the local auto-repair shops and the local car message forums but not one person could give me a recommendation for paint and body.  Cams? Gears? Exhaust? Electrical? Tuning?  Everyone has an opinion on where to go for that stuff but not body work.  Hell, one repair shop even told me to let the car rust to pieces because I'd never find anyone honorable.   One member here had a recommendation but I didn't see it until after the fact.    

[NHCharger]

 The Lincoln Continental and the split window Vette parked by us seem to be getting truck loads of attention,

Yeah that sounds about right. Seems that our Mopars are the red headed step children in the American car world.
As far as that white area being original paint?? That's tough to tell from just one pic. As Bill says if you look at the 2 o'clock position in the pic it appears they applied the new filler over old filler.
As far as leaving the old paint and going over it. . . . . Your going to get 1,000 different opinions on that.

[Dino]

That white filler was NOT what they found under the paint, that's bs. 

I have to agree with the others here Myk, I think you may want to consider pulling your car out.  I've worked in many bodyshops and I recognize what's going on.  I don't think you want your car done this way.

[Cooter]

Wow, I can't believe you still have it at that bodyshop Myk. Get it out of there. When will you guys learn. Bodyshops WILL NOT restore a car..All they do is quick, easy, paint jobs for quick easy money.

[bill440rt]

Myk, what is the goal with this car? What do you plan to do with it?

Is a show restoration what you want, or are you simply planning on driving the car & just want a paint job?
From the existing prep work photo you submitted & the work I can see done thus far, it looks like your getting your basic body shop paint job. There is a BIG difference in cost between a show finish & your basic quickie paint job.

What was discussed with the shop prior to them starting the work? Was a game plan ever laid out with them of what you expected?