69 Charger in clay model design

[69 OUR/TEA]

Don't know if any of you have seen these before,a friend of mine has them and let me borrow them to check them out and post about them to see if any of you had seen them before.Sorry that I don't have a scanner,so the best I could do was take pics of them to post.
They are of the 69 Charger being molded out of clay at the Dodge studio,by the Styling Staff.Note the 68 marker lights,tail stripe,and two different sides of the grill.

[69 OUR/TEA]

1 more...

[tan top]

 don't think i have ever seen them before   ,  awesome stuff  ,

hood looks different to the production one ,  or it could be the light    the centre rib stops short  as it gets to the front 

thanks for sharing

[BigBlackDodge]

No backup lights and there's a 'Charger' script above the right side tail light.



BBD

[BigBlackDodge]

Also, in the background in the first and second pic, is that a Dart grill I see?


BBD

[Mikesmoparperformance]

No backup lights and there's a 'Charger' script above the right side tail light.



BBD

Yes indeed, very cool to see this 69 charger in clay!

[Just 6T9 CHGR]

Wow Paul those are very cool....get your bud to scan them!

[A383Wing]

Cool..I got the clay pictures of the 66 Charger here somewhere from back in 1963

Bryan

[69 OUR/TEA]

I'm glad the grill did'nt turn out like the one on the right......yuck !!!!!!!

[XS29L9Bxxxxxx]

Awesome pics, Thanks, Thanks, Thanks!!!! 

[resq302]

Wow, hard to believe all of that is clay.  I can see the grille area being clay but the bumpers, doors, etc?  Seems like an awful lot of work when they could have just used 68 pieces in its place since it didnt change that much.

[A383Wing]

I'm glad the grill did'nt turn out like the one on the right......yuck !!!!!!!

I think that's an illusion from the page and taking the picture...note roof, glass, and bumper are all at an "angle"

Bryan

[69 OUR/TEA]

I'm glad the grill did'nt turn out like the one on the right......yuck !!!!!!!

I think that's an illusion from the page and taking the picture...note roof, glass, and bumper are all at an "angle"

Bryan

No,even though I took the pic on an angle,I did that because my wall sconce light was glaring on the photo.The grill is different from side to side.The driv side has a wider silver bar around the inside, and the plastic square ribbing is larger.Look real close

[A383Wing]

the roof line and windshield are "crooked" also...

Bryan 

[jessejames]

Very cool!!!! Thanks for the post!

[Ghoste]

Those are very cool.  Have not seen those ones before.

[bill440rt]

Wow, Paul! Cool shots!! 

Even the tailights are shaped slightly different. The right side is "rounder". 

[chargerjy9]

Wow, hard to believe all of that is clay.  I can see the grille area being clay but the bumpers, doors, etc?  Seems like an awful lot of work when they could have just used 68 pieces in its place since it didnt change that much.

As a retired clay sculptor who worked in the Chrysler styling studios, I can tell you, that, that model is not entirely made of clay. the front clip (hood, grille and bumper, fenders) may be clay but from the front door edge back is a production car. (Note the glass and interior) the rear quarters and deck lid are probably sheet metal, except for the t/lite and rear bumper, those areas could be clay. If the whole model were clay the greenhouse (roof, front glass, side glass, etc)could not be see thru.

[Charger_Dart]

Great pic's. Thanks for sharing.

[gtx6970]

something tells me this is more than clay ,
Generally speaking clay mockups don't have full interiors

[Ghoste]

Just a final exterior trim model then?

[69 OUR/TEA]

Wow, hard to believe all of that is clay.  I can see the grille area being clay but the bumpers, doors, etc?  Seems like an awful lot of work when they could have just used 68 pieces in its place since it didnt change that much.

As a retired clay sculptor who worked in the Chrysler styling studios, I can tell you, that, that model is not entirely made of clay. the front clip (hood, grille and bumper, fenders) may be clay but from the front door edge back is a production car. (Note the glass and interior) the rear quarters and deck lid are probably sheet metal, except for the t/lite and rear bumper, those areas could be clay. If the whole model were clay the greenhouse (roof, front glass, side glass, etc)could not be see thru.

chargerjy9,I'm sure you did work on these,and you most certainly can be correct about them using just clay on the nose,but this particular car is in fact is an all clay model,obviously not the interior as you can see thru it.If you had these photos in your hand like I do and can closely inspect them,the entire car IS clay.You can see the bottom fender to rocker panel has no gap,the doors and trunk lid have a scrape to illude that there is a gap,there is not,you can see how crooked the edge is and see that there is black paint in the crack to give the illusion of a door/trunk jamb.Even the back bumper looks to be scraped around to appear it is hanging/bolted to the car.Rear corner valances have not body lines /gaps.No seams on the tailpanel to end caps,etc.No seam where the deck panel to sail panels of quarters,etc.With the photo in my hand,you can see the back bumper is also sculpted as you can see the scrape marks under whatever they put on to mimick chrome.
NTM,the four pipe stands under the car holding up the structure.

[69 OUR/TEA]

something tells me this is more than clay ,
Generally speaking clay mockups don't have full interiors

Not a full interior,again,if you guys had these pictures in your hands,you would see far more detail than what you can see of what I posted.The dash is all together diff than a reg production car,smooth,as the rear speaker shelf is all molded smooth.Take a close look at the front view and side veiw,you can see pipes holding up the roof section.I do beleive however that it is a real windshield,side glass/vent window assembly and back glass,as they already had that in stock from the 68's.I have other pics of 69 plymouths to,and you can see by the lower shots they have no leaf springs or rear in them ,just pipes holding up the structure.

[chargerjy9]

I'm sorry, I  don't want to pick a fight. but I worked there. I worked on dozens of full size clay models in my career. I am intimately familiar with how they were and are constructed. I know the process then and now. I should have stated this in my previous post, but because there are no door openings, hood or decklid openings, or coach joint seams between body parts, (0n close examination of your pics, you are correct.) the openings are described by a shallow groove that is painted black or black tape is inserted. That tells me that what the photos are, would have been a fiberglas model set on an aluminum ladder type frame. The pipes that you see inside the property are what was used to add strength to the A & C pillars to hold the roof up. they would also glas those pipes inside the body to give it rigidity. The other give away that this is not real is that there are no real rubber moldings above the side glass or windshield ( that I can see in the photos).They did not use real glass,( too heavy ), but used, instead, plexi that was heat formed.

The process to design a car in the clay stage is this:
full size clay, (windows, bumpers, grille bezels, etc.in clay, included,) many different proposals done on  the same platform until a consensus is reached. Once management bought off on a design, a see thru fiberglass model would be built from a mold off the clay. this could be dressed up and sent out to clinic to guage public reaction. this was done for the 68 model. they would then use the fiberglas model to do the minor front end and rear end changes that we see on the 69. Sometimes, they would use a real production car if the changes were minor, but building structure for the clay and attaching it were not always easy.

[Ghoste]

Would this be the same glass buck for 68 and 69 then?

[Troy]

Wow, hard to believe all of that is clay.  I can see the grille area being clay but the bumpers, doors, etc?  Seems like an awful lot of work when they could have just used 68 pieces in its place since it didnt change that much.

The one picture appears to have a date of 1-30-67 on it. The 68s weren't in production yet.

Troy

[69 OUR/TEA]

Wow, hard to believe all of that is clay.  I can see the grille area being clay but the bumpers, doors, etc?  Seems like an awful lot of work when they could have just used 68 pieces in its place since it didnt change that much.

The one picture appears to have a date of 1-30-67 on it. The 68s weren't in production yet.

Troy

True,the 68's were'nt out yet.

[1969chargerrtse]

Paul amazing pictures. Thanks. Chargerjy9 it's great to have someone like you on the site. Share more!!

I love how you can see a designers face through the rear glass.

Chris is right get these scanned and on the Hamtramck site with all the archive info.

http://www.hamtramck-historical.com/

[chargerjy9]

Would this be the same glass buck for 68 and 69 then?

yes, it could have been.
also, even though the 68's were not in production then ( as to the 1/30/67 date on the pic ). there certainly were body-in-whites around then. BIW is a prototype sheet metal body that is assembled to make sure everything goes together.  The 1/30/67 timeframe would be just about right to get that model tooled and ready for 69 production.
For WIW I have over 40 years in the business. some 8 years working as a die pattern maker and wood model maker. I worked for Chrysler and AMC in the styling studios as a clay modeler and I worked 5 years with Larry Shinoda ( designer of 63 split window Corvette and Boss Mustang , etc) doing heavy duty trucks and tractors for White Motors.  If ever any one  here needs insight as to the Styling Process, I am more than happy to relate my experiences.

[resq302]

 

[BigBlackDodge]

Would this be the same glass buck for 68 and 69 then?

yes, it could have been.
also, even though the 68's were not in production then ( as to the 1/30/67 date on the pic ). there certainly were body-in-whites around then. BIW is a prototype sheet metal body that is assembled to make sure everything goes together.  The 1/30/67 timeframe would be just about right to get that model tooled and ready for 69 production.
For WIW I have over 40 years in the business. some 8 years working as a die pattern maker and wood model maker. I worked for Chrysler and AMC in the styling studios as a clay modeler and I worked 5 years with Larry Shinoda ( designer of 63 split window Corvette and Boss Mustang , etc) doing heavy duty trucks and tractors for White Motors.  If ever any one  here needs insight as to the Styling Process, I am more than happy to relate my experiences.

Is that a special type floor the car is siting in? Some sort of work platform? Surface plate?

Thanks!


BBD

[gtx6970]

Would this be the same glass buck for 68 and 69 then?

yes, it could have been.
also, even though the 68's were not in production then ( as to the 1/30/67 date on the pic ). there certainly were body-in-whites around then. BIW is a prototype sheet metal body that is assembled to make sure everything goes together.  The 1/30/67 timeframe would be just about right to get that model tooled and ready for 69 production.

Thats what I was thinking , body in whites +/or pilot cars are ready LONG before production begins

[DC_1]

Would this be the same glass buck for 68 and 69 then?

yes, it could have been.
also, even though the 68's were not in production then ( as to the 1/30/67 date on the pic ). there certainly were body-in-whites around then. BIW is a prototype sheet metal body that is assembled to make sure everything goes together.  The 1/30/67 timeframe would be just about right to get that model tooled and ready for 69 production.
For WIW I have over 40 years in the business. some 8 years working as a die pattern maker and wood model maker. I worked for Chrysler and AMC in the styling studios as a clay modeler and I worked 5 years with Larry Shinoda ( designer of 63 split window Corvette and Boss Mustang , etc) doing heavy duty trucks and tractors for White Motors.  If ever any one  here needs insight as to the Styling Process, I am more than happy to relate my experiences.

Do you have any pics you can share of some of the things you worked on?

[chargerjy9]

Would this be the same glass buck for 68 and 69 then?

yes, it could have been.
also, even though the 68's were not in production then ( as to the 1/30/67 date on the pic ). there certainly were body-in-whites around then. BIW is a prototype sheet metal body that is assembled to make sure everything goes together.  The 1/30/67 timeframe would be just about right to get that model tooled and ready for 69 production.
For WIW I have over 40 years in the business. some 8 years working as a die pattern maker and wood model maker. I worked for Chrysler and AMC in the styling studios as a clay modeler and I worked 5 years with Larry Shinoda ( designer of 63 split window Corvette and Boss Mustang , etc) doing heavy duty trucks and tractors for White Motors.  If ever any one  here needs insight as to the Styling Process, I am more than happy to relate my experiences.

Is that a special type floor the car is siting in? Some sort of work platform? Surface plate?

Thanks!


BBD

yes, all of the above. the model sits on a surface plate on 4 pins called risers which are hgt adjustable, and will locate model at same postion whenever it is moved in and out. Around the car, all 4 sides is a rail which is level to the world and has measurement gradation marks so one can put in and take from the model surface points which describe the volume and shapes.
I have a couple of pics to share
#1 Crossfire in platform small car studio

#2 AMC 2010 Marlin scale model. some of my AMC pals and I did this 2 years ago for kicks. now we are working on a proposal for 2013 Nash Metrpolitan that will drop on to a Fiat 500 platform

[Magnumcharger]

A similar situation...

[Magnumcharger]

I fixed up your pictures....hope you don't mind!

[rarefish]

It looks like the entire ceiling in the studio is lighting....

[Brock Samson]

Thanks for sharing these awesome pics..  Thanks Robin for fixin 'em up! 

[Magnumcharger]

Cool..I got the clay pictures of the 66 Charger here somewhere from back in 1963

Bryan

This pic?

[A383Wing]

Cool..I got the clay pictures of the 66 Charger here somewhere from back in 1963

Bryan

This pic?

yea...those and I think one or 2 others....one from drivers front, and one showing interior with package shelf instead of cargo area

Bryan

[BigBlackDodge]

Somewhere there's a pic of the '68 with two different tail lights, the round ones and one that looks very coronet-ish.


BBD

[Ghoste]

There are also some pics of a Charger clay with a very drawn out more "Marlin-esque" looking fastback on it and dual fuel filler caps.

[SuperJim]

Very VERY interesting post here. A "thank you" to all participating and sharing. This is just very cool to see. More clay... more clay... more clay...

[chargerjy9]

It looks like the entire ceiling in the studio is lighting....

light is very important. yes the whole ceiling is lit. one needs to read the "hi lites".  light source reflecting off the clay surface shows dips and holes, high spots and tightness of convex and concave surfs. how the surface flows.  oh, I could go on and on......

[cdr]

Somewhere there's a pic of the '68 with two different tail lights, the round ones and one that looks very coronet-ish.


BBD

[cdr]

68 clay