Aligment camber issue. Update

[1969chargerrtse]

Why does my car have a positive camber to it?  The more I raise the car to a stock height, the more the top of the tires point outward.  The A frame cams are all the way inward, I just don't get it.
You can see in this picture how the camber is positive, the tires are angled outward.  If I lower the front the camber gets better.  I don't want to go to an alignment shop if I don't have to.  I did the toe in and straightend the wheel to center and it rides great, I just can't lift the car up as the wheels move outward as if you were lifting the K frame up with a jack.

[charger Downunder]

First thought i thought you are adjusting the cams the wrong way.
When i adjust my height i jack the front off the ground turn the adjusters evenly and lower the car take it for a quick drive to level it out.
How are the bushes.

[1969chargerrtse]

The bushings are fine. They are adjusted to bring the A frame as far inward to the motor as possible yet the tires still angled away from the center of the car. Right?

[gtx6970]

Let me make sure I read this right.

You raise the ft end of the car and the tire leans outward?



If you have both cams turned all the way in,( ft and rear - both sides )  either something is bent or something seriously wrong underneath

[1969chargerrtse]

Let me make sure I read this right.

You raise the ft end of the car and the tire leans outward?



If you have both cams turned all the way in,( ft and rear - both sides )  either something is bent or something seriously wrong underneath

Yep. That's why I started this thread. Just wanted to make sure I had it correct as I'm no alignment expert.  I see nothing bent.  Guess a trip to a alignment shop is all that's left.
The car drives straight and doesn't shake or shimmey. The tires are even wearing correct. But to my eye they look angled to a positive camber. Guess only a machine will have the correct answer.

[Tilar]

Is it possible you have the wrong spindles or something on it? I would think the higher you raise the car the further in at the top they would be.

[1969chargerrtse]

Is it possible you have the wrong spindles or something on it? I would think the higher you raise the car the further in at the top they would be.

I'm wondering about the A frame or Control arm.  The spindle shouldn't change anything?  If you lift any charger from the K frame the tires will pull outwards at the top. So as you lift your height you pull your A frames in to compensate, but in my case they are all the way in.
I think I have 70 spindles, I know I have 70 calipers, maybe the 70 spindles angle different?

[HPP]

If you lift any charger from the K frame the tires will pull outwards at the top.

Actually, this is only correct for most GM and Ford cars of the same era. On a mopar, the tires should do the exact opposite and should go to negative camber when the nose comes up. Look at any photos of mopars pulling wheelies at the strip and compare them to Camaros and Mustangs and you'll see what I mean. This is part of the mopar design and the reason mopars of the era handled so much better than their competition.

If yours is doing the opposite, then something is not set up correctly. Since your car is together and driving, it makes it difficult to diagnose. Even if you take it to a frame shop and have it checked, unless they have the origianl measurements to verify, they won't be able to confirm it is in spec, they can only say if it is square and plumb.

One possible answer may be the upper control arm bushings. Do you know if you have standard or the offset "problem solver" units? If you have the offset units and they are installed backwards, they can create this problem. If you have the standard bushings, then that gets us back to something not being in the proper place. If installed correctly, the offset bushings can help correct the problem, but it is a kind of band-aid for something that may be more serious.

It is a pain, but I'd pull an upper a arm to check the bushings, unless you put them together and are postive what bushing is in there. Also, your tires look a bit new to show any wear issues yet. I wouldn't depend on them telling you much yet because street tires are made of such hard compounds they won't show immediate wear patterns like a soft compound race tire will. If you have an infared thermometer, you could check the temp across the tread face immediatly after a short drive. Hot spots will show where the wear is going to be the greatest.

[1969chargerrtse]

You guys hit some great thoughts. I'm thinking it's a spindle issue. Found some Info on the net.  Gonna try to find part #s etc.

[HPP]

If your talking about the 3/8" taller spindles from a later model mopar, those aren't the issue. Those would actually create a situation where the upper arm would have a shorter effective length and you would have the opposite problem from what you have.

Assuming you have the correct control arms, then the location of the inner mounting positions is not correct.This could mean the frame rails where the upper mount go are twisted and pushing the pivot point out, or the k frame is bent and pulling the mounting points for the lower arm in.

Let me ask this, why did you raise the car up?

BTW, if you moved both upper control arm cams to point in, you've lost your caster as well.

[1969chargerrtse]

If your talking about the 3/8" taller spindles from a later model mopar, those aren't the issue. Those would actually create a situation where the upper arm would have a shorter effective length and you would have the opposite problem from what you have.

Assuming you have the correct control arms, then the location of the inner mounting positions is not correct.This could mean the frame rails where the upper mount go are twisted and pushing the pivot point out, or the k frame is bent and pulling the mounting points for the lower arm in.

Let me ask this, why did you raise the car up?

BTW, if you moved both upper control arm cams to point in, you've lost your caster as well.

I moved the car up trying to get closer to a normal factory look height, but when I lift up the camper goes positive.

[HPP]

Fair enough. FWIW, I believe the factory ride height spec is 1 7/8". That is measured at the t-bar socket (position A) and the bottom of the lower ball joint (position B). Subtract B from A and it should equal 1 7/8" plus or mins 1/8".

I'd still be interested in what bushings are in the upper contorl arms. Moog developed the Problem Solver offset bushings to specifically address this type of issue way back in the 70s. If they aren't causing the problem, they certainly could help fix it.

It might also be worthwhile to acquire a Field Service Manual and start checking frame reference points.

[1969chargerrtse]

Fair enough. FWIW, I believe the factory ride height spec is 1 7/8". That is measured at the t-bar socket (position A) and the bottom of the lower ball joint (position B). Subtract B from A and it should equal 1 7/8" plus or mins 1/8".

I'd still be interested in what bushings are in the upper contorl arms. Moog developed the Problem Solver offset bushings to specifically address this type of issue way back in the 70s. If they aren't causing the problem, they certainly could help fix it.

It might also be worthwhile to acquire a Field Service Manual and start checking frame reference points.

Thanks for the info. I'm gonna start with what spindles I have?  If they are correct 70 spindles I'll take a look at installing off set bushings and hope that helps. We'll get this figured out. The car is done, so this is next on my hit list. I could leave it as it drives and looks great. I just like things correct.

[charger Downunder]

I remember something about a washer that would space out the spindle or something like that some one was selling them,i cant remember if it would fix your problem but maybe a cheaper option.?

[HPP]

You certainly could do that. If you install a .125 thick, hardened washer between the ball joint and the spindle, it will change the camber angle to allow more negative adjustment. It does not, however, address the underlying issue of why there is excessive positive camber.

[1969chargerrtse]

Agree. Lots on my plate right now but I'll get to it.

[b5blue]

If your LOWER control arm bushings are shot they wear up and in, that would pull the bottom of the tire inwards. 

[1969chargerrtse]

If your LOWER control arm bushings are shot they wear up and in, that would pull the bottom of the tire inwards. 

I know but they are new and it's the same issue.  Thanks.

[1969chargerrtse]

I'm pretty sure I have incorrect spindles.  Here's a picture of mine, and I think of a 69 or 70.  They are not even close.   Mine goes straight up where as the other has a wave. Anyone have any 69/70 spindle shots for me to compare?  I can almost see how mine would lean the tire outward at top.
Or any 70 spindles for sale?  

[1969chargerrtse]

Found a 70 set.  Is 250.00 fair?

http://www.ebay.com/itm/260926410213?item=260926410213&viewitem=&vxp=mtr

[Charger-Bodie]

Arent those spindles (the ones on your car) the factory disc brake ones? The ones you have a link to are 70 up style disc brake spindles. Different than 69 disc brakes.


EDIT: Actually, I think maybe those look lile F-body spindles maybe.

[1969chargerrtse]

I need someone to post a picture of their 69 disk brake spindle. I have a sigle caliper so i don't know if its a 70 set up or Aspen etc...

[1969chargerrtse]

When lifted.

[gtx6970]

I have both the 69 drum brake spindles and a set  of the 69 B-body disc brake spindles on hand, so I can take a picture the 1st of the week

[1969chargerrtse]

I have both the 69 drum brake spindles and a set  of the 69 B-body disc brake spindles on hand, so I can take a picture the 1st of the week

That would be awesome. Thanks.   
Any chance if you know if 69 and 70 are the same?   I swear I bought pads for a 70 setup.