Proform Roller Rockers for RB engines?

[Charger4404spd]

Need opinions on these please. Mancini has them listed for $229.

[Chryco Psycho]

I have been using the PRW stainless rockers , are the proform alum ?

[Charger4404spd]

Yes

http://chucker54.stores.yahoo.net/manciniracing13.html

[oldkimmer]

.................Stay far away.....................kim..................

[Charger4404spd]

Yes have decided to go with Harland Sharps, thanks!

[mopar0166]

where did you get them from, and what heads did you put them on?  Just curious, im currently getting my list together for my 440 build

[mopar0166]

any opinion on these? 

http://store.440source.com/Aluminum-Roller-Rockers_shafts-16-Ratio-New/productinfo/200-1046/

[Charger4404spd]

where did you get them from, and what heads did you put them on?  Just curious, im currently getting my list together for my 440 build

Got the HS from racingjunk.com  
I will be putting them on a set of Eddy RPM heads.

[oldschool]

any opinion on these? 

http://store.440source.com/Aluminum-Roller-Rockers_shafts-16-Ratio-New/productinfo/200-1046/

[Chryco Psycho]

I agree pass on the 440 source ones

[mopar0166]

 I heard they were crap

[Highbanked Hauler]

 Without pulling the valve cover off I can't tell you what aluminum 1/6 roller rockers(they are gold in color) I have on my 440 that I recently bought  but from what I read here  aluminum rollers are  junk.  Is that so and what would be a good replacement  as I am looking for longevity ?

   Chryco, you have stainless rockers ?

[Chryco Psycho]

Yes I have stainless rockers , Comp makes them in 1.5 ratio only & PRW makes them in 1.5, 1.6 &1.7 ratio
Gold is typically Crane . not all Alum rockers are "junk" Harland seem to be strong enough I just dislike them from the point of view that it makes no sense to use a needle brg over a bushing on the rocker shaft , the shaft will wear faster & if the rocker fails the engine will be full of needle brgs to fish out , Crane are a decent product before they went out of business . For street builds I have avoided Alum for the most part , I have used a lot of the Iron non roller rockers & I have used probably 10 set of PRW Stainless rockers

[Challenger340]

I dunno what to say here....
other than to stress the importance of correct Valvetrain Geometry, and Valve Spring rate matched to the Cam profile, as to the direct correlation to ANY Rocker Arms longevity.
IMO,
just NO SUCH THING as pre-built "correct" pushrod length these days.

in other words,
You can RUIN the BEST Rockers out there very quickly with poor Geometry...
and,
You can make even the CHEAPEST Rockers survive just fine, under the HARSHEST conditions with good Geometry.

With the abundance of Aftermarket Heads, Block Rebuilding/Decking etc., going on with these 40 year old Blocks these Days, it is no wonder there are so many "stories" out there, as to "This" or "That" Rocker Arms being garbage....
when IMO,
faulting the Rockers without full disclosure of the complete installation including Spring Slew rate, Geometry and oiling, may be unfair ?

Over the last few years, as they return for Freshening, I have now switched most of my "mid-level", 550 to 850hp Engines using Standard Port Offsets over to the Harland Sharps, with VERY good success.
I simply cannot argue with the Dampening effect of the Aluminum on Spring Harmonics, and the HP increase due to reduced Friction with a needle bearing.

I am not worried one Iota in regards to any needle bearings being introduced into an Engine during a Rocker failure, because they are a CAGED Bearing !,
Have been since 2006 as far as I know ??
On the Harland SharpsYou can SMASH the Rocker in Half with a Hammer, and the Bearing stays Integral on the Shaft ??
At least it did when we destroyed one here as a test ??

[Highbanked Hauler]

   NOT being an engine person curiosity got the best of me so I pulled a valve cover off and the rockers on mine are Cranes with an adjustment screw at the push rod .



You can RUIN the BEST Rockers out there very quickly with poor Geometry...
You can make even the CHEAPEST Rockers survive just fine, under the HARSHEST conditions with good Geometry.

[Chryco Psycho]

The frictional loss is not metal on metal it is oil , the bushing inside a rocker should never touch the shaft , the smaller surface of the needle brg reduces the surface area to the point where the load can exceed to the strength of the oil film , thus causing wear on the shafts , the load is carried mostly by only 3-4 needle brgs & I have seen deep grooves worn into shafts as the brgs do not travel very far in relation to the lift of the valve . just my preference but I have not use rockers with needle brgs .
True that the valve train geometery & pushrod length is critical though

[Challenger340]

The frictional loss is not metal on metal it is oil , the bushing inside a rocker should never touch the shaft , the smaller surface of the needle brg reduces the surface area to the point where the load can exceed to the strength of the oil film , thus causing wear on the shafts , the load is carried mostly by only 3-4 needle brgs & I have seen deep grooves worn into shafts as the brgs do not travel very far in relation to the lift of the valve . just my preference but I have not use rockers with needle brgs .
True that the valve train geometery & pushrod length is critical though

I have not seen any "grooves" worn in the Rocker Shafts with Harland Sharp Rockers in my experience , and I certainly hope NOT to ever, or, I will be looking for a lubrication, or ValveSpring Slew Rate/Harmonics problem ??
to the contrary,
the Harland Sharps I have examined after 2 years have been "like new" condition on the Hardened Shafts...
and,
that was being employed under the harshest Race Roller Cam profile environment, of 330# seat pressure with 800# over the Nose at peak lift on 7500 rpm.

I believe, there is a reason most "High End" Rocker Arms like JESEL, CROWER, etc., etc., have all switched to Needle Bearings for Automotive Racing Valvetrain Components like Rocker Arm Trunions......but thats just me I guess, I GO with what works for me, same as anybody should.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Needle_roller_bearing

[Chryco Psycho]

Time is the key , a race engine doesn't see a lot of miles , even with extreme pressures & high rpm .
Longevity in a high milage street engine is different , same thing occurs in a U joint thousands of miles turning back & forth over a short travel will wear grooves into a hardened U joint just the same as a rocker shaft . OK a U joint is not fed a constant supply of oil but I have seen hardened rocker shafts worn from needle brg rockers .
As for reduced friction it still comes down to the oil between the metals , This study shows somewhere between no gain & 5-10% , the gains were seen driving the engine externally http://www.rigzone.com/jobs/search_job_results.asp?JobCategory=3 .Some of the gains would just be from the less oil feed required alone .

[Challenger340]

Time is the key , a race engine doesn't see a lot of miles , even with extreme pressures & high rpm .
Longevity in a high milage street engine is different , same thing occurs in a U joint thousands of miles turning back & forth over a short travel will wear grooves into a hardened U joint just the same as a rocker shaft . OK a U joint is not fed a constant supply of oil but I have seen hardened rocker shafts worn from needle brg rockers .
As for reduced friction it still comes down to the oil between the metals , This study shows somewhere between no gain & 5-10% , the gains were seen driving the engine externally http://www.rigzone.com/jobs/search_job_results.asp?JobCategory=3 .Some of the gains would just be from the less oil feed required alone .

Again, as I said earlier, I would suggest that if you have seen "grooves" worn in a Oil Pressure Fed Rocker Shaft System from needle bearings, the Technical term being "brinnelling",
IMO,
I believe there would have been a "harmonic" event also present, to break the Oil film...that facilitated the Shaft Damage ?
Given the Pressure lubrication, I do NOT believe a dedicated surface stress overload by itself, as the cause.

The same as the cyclic phasing of the U-Joint "Working Angle" example you mentioned, a perfect example in a driveshaft U-Joint, and the Technical term "brinnelling" of the hardened surface, symptomatic of poor lubrication..... further denigrating the surface failure under Harmonic influence.

But in the Rockers case...
IMO,
I believe any Rocker Shaft "grooves" are probably from Valve Spring Slew Rate/Harmonics NOT being controlled, incorrect Valve Spring setup ??

As for the "Time" and "longevity" factors to needle bearings under pressure lubrication in a Rocker Arm Trunion application, Hydraulic Roller Lifter Trunions(needle bearings) are now the Industry standard for all O.E.M. Manufacturers, which I believe speaks for itself.

No matter, IMO, this is neither the time, nor place for such a discussion....no wars wanted

If the above is what you believe, based upon your experience and education, then I would suggest you continue using whatever works for you,
and,
I will agree to disagree.

cheers

[firefighter3931]

From my experience the Harland Sharp rocker system is dead nuts reliable in all applications be it straight race or street/strip. Been using them for years. 

A guy I know has been using the same set of HS rockers/shafts over 15 years on everything from a flat tappet to a solid roller. Those rockers have well over 2000 1/4 mile passes on them as well as several thousand street miles. 



Ron