Clacking lifters

[Paul G]

About a year ago I started noticing a little lifter clatter at start up. It would clack a little then go away within a minute. I checked around and it seemed like it was not uncommon to clack at start up. Now the clatter is not going away. The lifter clatter is constant, mostly at idle, seems like it goes way when RPM go up, although it is hard to tell over the headers. I went in and adjusted the rockers a while back, they are Crane Gold adjustable rocker arms. Made no difference.

Are they getting enough oil? Oil pressure is around 30 PSI at idle, 60 at cruise. Can they totally collapse on me and grenade the engine?   

[c00nhunterjoe]

Hydraulic or solid cam? 

Whose manufacture?

You said you adjusted the rockers? What were the tolerances before you adjusted them and what did you set them to?

Are you running zddp additives in your oil?

[Budnicks]

If they are hydraulic lifters, Is the pre-load set correctly ??,  it could be just a colasped lifter also... maybe too thick of oil not getting to the parts quick enough when cold... Does it go away after it's warm ??,  Do the adjuster screws ball section on the Crane rockers have any signs of wear ??, or maybe even wore out, either the push rod cup or the adjuster screw... How many threads of the rockers adjuster are sticking out of the bottom of the rockers ??, there shouldn't be more than 3-4 threads max or it will have oil stavation problems at the cup & adjuster area {I had that happen before}, if you need more than that amount of threads sticking out to get the proper pre-load on the lifters, "you may need to go to a longer push-rods" or just add "lash caps on top of the valves"... good luck with the noise, just a couple of thoughts...

[Paul G]

Hydraulic or solid cam? 

Hydraulic cam.

Whose manufacture?

No idea who made them, I didnt build the engine.

You said you adjusted the rockers? What were the tolerances before you adjusted them and what did you set them to?

I followed a procedure that has you put the lifter at base circle and back off the adjustment, wait for the lifter spring to seat aginst the lock, tighten down till you feel resistance on the push rod, then go 1/2 to 1 full turn more and lock the adjustment down. Did it to all 16 a while back.

Are you running zddp additives in your oil?

I use Valvoline Racing 20w50 since I have had the car. No telling what the prev owner used?

[Paul G]

Does it go away after it's warm ??
No. It used to go away after a minute or less, not any more.

Do the adjuster screws ball section on the Crane rockers have any signs of wear ??, or maybe even wore out.
Very few miles on the engine since rebuild. They didnt show any wear last time I was in there. Clean looking inside the valve cover. No sludge, still looks freshly built even though it has been 11 years ago.

How many threads of the rockers adjuster are sticking out of the bottom of the rockers ??, there shouldn't be more than 3-4 threads max or it will have oil stavation problems at the cup & adjuster area {I had that happen before}, if you need more than that amount of threads sticking out to get the proper pre-load on the lifters, "you may need to go to a longer push-rods" or just add "lash caps on top of the valves"... good luck with the noise, just a couple of thoughts...

I will check those things out during the week.

I am wondering if I got a set of cheap Chinese lifters in there. I have been reading about poor quality stuff hitting the market. Were they around 11 years ago?

How do the lifters get oiled? Does splash oil just settle down in to the lifter from the top?

[c00nhunterjoe]

How long have you been driving on the valvoline oil? It does not have enough zinc and phosphorous and WILL wipe the cam. You may need to pull the intake and inspect for damage.

[Budnicks]

The lifters are part of the main oil system it gets fed from the oil pump & pick up in the pan, then thru the block to the lifters... The push rods & rockers are fed oil thru the rocker shafts to the rockers then to the push rod cups/adjuster ball tips & rollers....  

[Paul G]

How long have you been driving on the valvoline oil? It does not have enough zinc and phosphorous and WILL wipe the cam. You may need to pull the intake and inspect for damage.

I have been using it for two years. I have some pics from the intake swap I did last year. Less than 1000 miles ago. I can see a wear pattern on the lobes. Is that normal for an engine with less than 6000 miles on it? Or, is that from lack of proper lubricant? Keep in mind this isnt Grandmas grocery getter any more. those 6000 miles have been fun filled miles for the owners. Me and the other guy.

[firefighter3931]

I have some pics from the intake swap I did last year. Less than 1000 miles ago. I can see a wear pattern on the lobes. Is that normal for an engine with less than 6000 miles on it? Or, is that from lack of proper lubricant? Keep in mind this isnt Grandmas grocery getter any more. those 6000 miles have been fun filled miles for the owners. Me and the other guy.

That looks like a normal wear pattern to me Paul.  I'd pull the valvecovers to see if you have excessive play in the valvetrain which might indicate a bad cam lobe(s) or mushroomed lifters. If the pushrods seem snug then it's probably bad (partially collapsed) lifters.

In any case you need to run a good oil with an EP additive. The VR1 is descent but it wouldn't hurt to use something like ZZDP+ to boost the additive package. 

Did you see 471 Magnum's thread on the wiped cam ?

http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,89312.0.html



Ron

[c00nhunterjoe]

Those rockers sure are pretty! A lot can happen in a thousand miles. I still say an inspection is due. I agree, start with pulling the valve covers and go from there.

[Paul G]

That broken lifter really scares me. Valve covers will come off this week and do another adjustment check, count the threads, etc. I have had the intake off three times now. Here is a stupid question. Does the intake to head gasket have to be replaced every time I pull the intake?

[c00nhunterjoe]

Don't just jump into the adjustment. Set each cylinder up but check them first. Look for any play, see if you can wigle the rocker on the shaft or move the roller. 

Ideally you probably should replace the valley pan since it does crush when you install it but I have reused mine many, many times without leaks. I use ford's 7.3 diesel silicone as well. Its the best silicone made and its un affected by fuel and oil. A bit pricey but well worth it.

[firefighter3931]

As Joe suggested check each valve individually and make sure the lifter is on the base circle (heel) of the lobe. You're looking for vertical movement or something that would suggest that there's a loosening of the pre-load. 

I allways use new intake gaskets.....leaks are a PITA 



Ron

[471_Magnum]

No valley pan. It's a small block.

[Paul G]

As Joe suggested check each valve individually and make sure the lifter is on the base circle (heel) of the lobe. You're looking for vertical movement or something that would suggest that there's a loosening of the pre-load. 

I allways use new intake gaskets.....leaks are a PITA 



Ron

Is it normal to be able to push the push rod back in to the lifter? Last time when I adjusted the rockers I was able to push the push rod back in to the lifter on some of them. Just assumed they had bled down or something like that.

[c00nhunterjoe]

If you can grab the rocker and collapse the likfter then they are bad

[Paul G]

If you can grab the rocker and collapse the likfter then they are bad

Sounds like the intake is coming off again! Man I am starting to hate that job. Can I just install new lifters on the existing cam? Do I have to do a cam break in?

[Challenger340]

I've been trying to cover off on this problem in a few posts, lotta crap offshore chinese hydraulic lifter bodies out there the last few years, being reboxed in EVERYBODY's boxes...right from CompCams on down to Lunati, engle, and you name who...just plain shiatty valving internally.
ONLY hydraulic lifters to buy,
IMO,
are GENUINE Topline Johnson Hylift, AMERICAN MADE in Muskegon Mi, by contacting them directlty.

I've gotten pretty good at recognizing the chinese stuff visually, or, if you prefer for yourself, you can dis-assemble and find the offending chink crap by dis-assembling and noting the "check-Ball" style valving...
instead of....
a "wafer style" that actually WORKS and doesn't bleed down manufactured by Johnson.

[firefighter3931]

If you can grab the rocker and collapse the likfter then they are bad

Sounds like the intake is coming off again! Man I am starting to hate that job. Can I just install new lifters on the existing cam? Do I have to do a cam break in?

Yes, you can install new lifters on an older cam but you still have to break them in ; 2000-2500 for 20 minutes.  


Ron

[c00nhunterjoe]

Or swap to mechanical and never look back.....   

[dodgedarren]

Is Royal Purple good oil to run with hydrolic lifters??

[Paul G]

I found Topline's website, will order from them unless...... on Summit's website they have a Rhoads lifter which sounds interesting. Are they more of the same off shore junk? Or something to not bother with? They say they reduce lift and duration at lower RPM which increases low rpm torque, but get it all back at 3500. Whats up with them?

"Rhoads Original hydraulic flat tappet variable duration lifters are famous for increasing low-end torque, engine vacuum, and idle quality on engines equipped with performance hydraulic cams, while maintaining maximum top-end power. Better fuel economy and improved emissions quality are often reported by customers with Rhoads lifters. The unique construction of Rhoads Original hydraulic lifters reduces lift and duration at idle by approximately .010 in. to .020 in. Duration is reduced by approximately 10 to 15 degrees. Total lift and duration are restored at approximately 3,500 rpm. Original Rhoads lifters are also anti-pump-up for higher rpm revs. Typical vacuum increases range between 1 and 3 in. Rhoads lifters can be used with either adjustable or non-adjustable valvetrains. Original Rhoads lifters, with their legendary "ticking" at idle, sound similar to solid lifters. These Rhoads Original series lifters are designed for use with high performance street, marine, or racing applications."

[Paul G]

And I got to "get r dun" by April 12th!

[471_Magnum]

I just received a set from Topline. Excellent pricing. 4 bucks for the standard lifter. 5.39 for the race.

[Challenger340]

I found Topline's website, will order from them unless...... on Summit's website they have a Rhoads lifter which sounds interesting. Are they more of the same off shore junk? Or something to not bother with? They say they reduce lift and duration at lower RPM which increases low rpm torque, but get it all back at 3500. Whats up with them?

"Rhoads Original hydraulic flat tappet variable duration lifters are famous for increasing low-end torque, engine vacuum, and idle quality on engines equipped with performance hydraulic cams, while maintaining maximum top-end power. Better fuel economy and improved emissions quality are often reported by customers with Rhoads lifters. The unique construction of Rhoads Original hydraulic lifters reduces lift and duration at idle by approximately .010 in. to .020 in. Duration is reduced by approximately 10 to 15 degrees. Total lift and duration are restored at approximately 3,500 rpm. Original Rhoads lifters are also anti-pump-up for higher rpm revs. Typical vacuum increases range between 1 and 3 in. Rhoads lifters can be used with either adjustable or non-adjustable valvetrains. Original Rhoads lifters, with their legendary "ticking" at idle, sound similar to solid lifters. These Rhoads Original series lifters are designed for use with high performance street, marine, or racing applications."

I don't believe a damn thing I read on the internet anymore.......bunch of horsepituee IMO, pure & simple !

Here is a fine example.....from an otherwise fine Cam Company like Lunati....

Go to the Lunati website, and read up in the BB Mopar section, about how WONDERFUL their "Micro-Trol" Hydraulic Lifters are for High rpm, blah, blah, valvetrain stability, blah blah, anti pump up, blah blah....
THEN
phone Lunati and actually ask them about their wonderful "Micro-Trol" super Lifters for BB Mopar applications....
the short answer(if pressed or if anybody is honest that day without being caught lying)
is that Lunati.....actually.... DO NOT have any such product for a BB Mopar..... and are simply RE-BOXING the offshore Chinese crap from EATON in Lunati Boxes.
True story...go check for yourself.

IMO,
quit believing all that "salesmans bluster", which is the legal term that absolves sellers back into the realm of "Buyer beware", and just go buy a Lifter THAT works...being the Topline Johnson...
and forget wonder claims from Rhoads or anybody else...it is afterall...a frigging HYDRAULIC Lifter for crissakes.