Ignition timing question

[WH23G3G]

This is about my Plymouth. It's been sitting up for about two years outside, so I'm sure the gas is not the best. But 2 years ago when I first got it, the first thing I did was have the fuel tank checked, cleaned, and repaired. The shop said it was amazingly clean inside and it's original. I also put a new sock and float on the sending unit and 5 gallons of fresh gas. However, that was the 2 years ago. Since then I fixed all the oil leaks, put new water pump, rebuilt radiator, and all the externals. I also put in a new distributor, cap, rotor, plugs, wires, and rebuilt carb. So I believe I've got the ignition timing right or close to it. It will fire up and run for a second or two until the starting fluid or gas burns off. It flamed a little but sucked down because I had someone hold the gas down while we tried to start it. It does shoot a nice shot of gas when you push the pedal in. It's getting spark of course. But I was wondering if the timing was off a little would it still start like this and run for that second or two that the gas is burning but off enough to not keep it running?   

[myk]

I would say that if your timing is too advanced it either won't start or it would be very difficult to start.  If the distributor was 180* off then it wouldn't start and/or backfire.  The best thing to do is retard the timing; it's been about 5 years since I set my own timing so I can't recall if it's clockwise or counterclockwise to retard the timing.  I'd like to guess you're having fuel delivery issues.  You didn't mention if you changed the fuel filter or not, either.  How's your fuel pump?  Did you change that too?  You've got  to verify if you're getting fuel flow and at the right volume.  There's a test for that but, damn if I could only find my shop manual.

I have a buddy who tries to start up his '55 Crown 'Vic every 5 years or so, and he always goes through the same thing you're doing right now: starter fluid, pouring gas into the 'carb, trying like crazy to start the thing.  Maybe the car's just stuck in a deep sleep...

[c00nhunterjoe]

Lifters may be blead down, floats or needle and seat sticking, or all of the above and then some.

[myk]

It's easier just to keep these things running regularly...

[b5blue]

What motor? What "new" dist.? 2 year old gas? Check for fuel pressure? 

[WH23G3G]

It's got a 170 Slant Six. I rebuilt the Holley 1920 on it a few weeks ago and put in a new accelerator pump. This is the one that doesn't have the spring assisted choke or vacuum diaphragm. I put in a reman distributor which came with new points installed. The engine/forward light harness is fresh from Year One. The fuel pump pressure is good. The fuel is definitely getting to the carb. The filter is new. and new fuel pump to carb line. I believe the timing is just off some. It sure would help if I could get the ignition key to work. I'm trying to fix that issue first.

[myk]

You could just jump the starter relay or attach a push-button switch to the starter relay while you try to sort all of this out...

[b5blue]

1st check for fuel, is it pumping gas? Verify spark? Next I'd suspect the rebuilt dist. as I had 2 from A1Cardone that were total POS out of the box.   

[myk]

He says he's verified both...

[b5blue]

My bad!
  Check the shaft of the dist. for wobble. Check the mech. and vac. advance function, action should be smooth and return nicely. Both A1Cardone dist. I had failed one or all of these tests. If any fail return it. If they pass check/reset the points and timing. Re check firing order. Check voltage at coil.  In tuning ALWAYS set ignition perfectly before adjusting carb. Modern fuel absorbs water/moisture and I had a less than 8 month old new carter fuel pump crap out, less than 500 miles on it, it sat for 6 months while I worked on the car without running it. In thinking that could not be the issue as it was new, I wasted 2 weekends cranking the crap out of my car and drove myself nuts! You can't "over verify" anything when you don't know why it will not start.

[WH23G3G]

Well I verified the the ignition switch is getting power from the switch to the bulkhead connector. And from the bulkhead connector to the relay. So the yellow wire is getting power when the key is turned to start. The center stud on the relay has power. The solenoid terminal on the relay does not have power. When we turn the key to start the yellow has power, the battery stud on the relay has power, but the solenoid terminal on the relay does not have power. That's the little wire going from the relay to the starter. It's a brand new made wire, soldered too. Is that suppose to have power when you turn the key to start? So what does that mean? I need to get that fixed before I can even do the timing. 

[b5blue]

Check the NSSS (Neutral Start Safety Switch.) on your transmission. I think it supplies ground to the start relay's coil on all cars. A brown wire, (I think) by grounding that terminal it would start cranking regardless of shifters position so be careful as it could start in gear and crank while running also! First try wiggling the shifter around in park or neutral a lot while holding the key in crank position.    (I had an old car that would not crank unless you kinda lifted the shifter while doing this, the linkage was worn out.)

[WH23G3G]

I've already tried running a jumper from the ground connection on the relay to ground bypassing the NSS. It didn't change anything. Today while holding the key in the run position I again probed every wire I could think might have something to do with the engine starting with the key. Everything from the ignition key switch to the firewall bulkhead connector is getting power from inside and on the outside of the firewall bulkhead to the relay. I even checked the ignition key switch itself and it's getting power to all connections. The only time the test light didn't light up was when the key was turned to run and I probed the small solenoid wire from the starter to the relay. It's a brand new wire too. While I was checking all that I probed the gauge cluster connector to see if my oil pressure light was getting power and it's not getting power at the gauge cluster. But I peeled all the black tape back from there to the bulkhead connector and I don't see anywhere the gray wire is broken. I don't want to remove this dash harness. I want to figure out why I can't start this with the key. What else is there to check? I'm on my 2nd relay too.

[b5blue]

Will it crank jumping the relay? (Bypassing it) It could be starter or starter cable....

[WH23G3G]

Yes that's the only way I can get it to crank is by bypassing the realy. I had my father turn the key to start and I checked for power on the relay. The wire from the relay solenoid terminal showed now power. But it was getting battery power from the starter. So I thought maybe the solenoid on the starter could be bad. I guess it's easy enough to remove to test.

[firefighter3931]

The relay is bad...swap in a new one 


Ron

[WH23G3G]

That's what I did. Nothing ever changed and I did all the same tests and was told to swap out the relay. It didn't fix. Is it possible I could have 2 bad relays that soon?

[b5blue]

Ground the NSS terminal and use a +12V jumper to force it to trigger. Post a pic of what you have. 

[WH23G3G]

So I disconnect the NSS wire at the relay and at a jumper wire going to ground? Where do I apply the 12v jumper wire? Will I need another battery source or can I jump it off the battery in the car? It will be the weekend before I can mess with it. The car is at another location.