Pro-touring Guys, whats more important thrust bearings or disc brakes?

[miller]

Hello,

Looking into disk brake kits, and what I have found is that all of the brake companies require green (roller) bearings for their kits. From what I have read green bearings have only about 1/3 of the side loading capability of the thrust bearings. So to build a pro touring charger, what is more important, turning capability or stopping capability?

Thank you for the advice,
Miller

[MSRacing89]

Remember a lot of these kits are designed with the intent of drag racing. i.e. Wilwood, etc.  Not for cornering.  I would suggest keeping the non-green in the car and building around it.  You do not want the float that they can create.

[Troy]

Dr Diff sells a rear kit that can utilize the original bearing setup. Most of the others require green bearings. I haven't heard of anyone killing their bearings yet while road racing. Maybe I'm out of the loop though. Possibly beating it hard at the track but definitely not any that are primarily street driven. Heck, most guys don't put 1,000 miles per year on their cars so you need to find people who actually drive these things often (and through turns).

Troy

[Musicman]

Dr Diff has everything... the brakes, the Timken bearings, the adjusters, the locking tabs, etc,etc,etc... everything you need in one place.
You can have the rear disc's though, I'll take drums over disc's any day of the week.

[BrianShaughnessy]

I've played with the Aerospace (ie: wilwood) and SSBC ( ie: gm eldorado calipers ) rear disks recently.   They are both flawed.   

If it was my dime I'd buy Dr. Diff setup.   

If I had the opportuinity again,  I'd just buy a dr. diff dana rear and use the ford housings / bearings and have the best of both worlds without the hassle.

[redmist]

Dr. Diff would have a lot more money in his pocket if he spent even one day building a decent website. I keep hearing about his "kits" but I go to his site and then just close it down.

Live in the now man!!!   

[Kern Dog]

When I built the Charger, I wanted it to handle well but in a moment of stupidity, I went with the ball bearing "green" type axle bearings. Now that I have a renewed interest in cornering, I'll probably go back to Timkens when these start to fail.
Oh, Dr Diff is a great guy to deal with, but I suspect that he is so busy with his Body shop and the side business of axle stuff, he has very little free time.

[Musicman]

Dr. Diff would have a lot more money in his pocket if he spent even one day building a decent website. I keep hearing about his "kits" but I go to his site and then just close it down.

Live in the now man!!!   

His site has improved quite a bit since my last visit.

[flyinlow]

I am not a pro touring guy, but I have put 20K + miles on my green bearings in the last 4 years. I do not baby them in corners, I drive with four people in the car sometimes. Still as smooth as new. The rear disk kit I used required green bearings. If I did it again I would look at Dr. Diff kits or just leave the drums on.

I think the tapered bearing are a good system, but 40 years ago, when these cars where daily drivers, the bearings failed occasionally. Most people never greased them. The reason I put the green bearings on to begin with is because one of the Timken bearings went bad. The adjuster threads where about gone and I was going to install rear disk down the road, so I installed the green bearing. 

[Steve P.]

Brian is on the track I would be kicking around. The big FORD bearing ends are taper bearings and can and are used with discs... No C-clips, green bearings or thrust block/bushing needed.. The axles bolt/unbolt the same as stock.... I will look deeper into any pros/cons when it comes time for mine, but for now I have green bearings and drums... Mine will be street driven some day, but in the past I never had a problem with green bearings drag and street use and that car made the trip from Virginia to RI to upstate NY without any issues at all...

[GT]

On my Dana 60, I went with the ford big ends/ bearings as mentioned above and 14" wilwoods.  Problem solved permanently    also a reason I went with the alterkation which has the mustang II style spindles.   These two options opens up the possibilities of multiple types of vendor disk brakes for our cars (and a lot cheaper than existing mopar aftermarket units that seem to carry a premium.)

I hate saying it, but the ford big ends are superior to the stock mopar tapered or green bearings.  But it's not a simple swap as the housing flanges are changed... 


That being said, call Dr. Diff

[thedodgeboys]

On my Dana 60, I went with the ford big ends/ bearings as mentioned above and 14" wilwoods.  Problem solved permanently    also a reason I went with the alterkation which has the mustang II style spindles.   These two options opens up the possibilities of multiple types of vendor disk brakes for our cars (and a lot cheaper than existing mopar aftermarket units that seem to carry a premium.)

I hate saying it, but the ford big ends are superior to the stock mopar tapered or green bearings.  But it's not a simple swap as the housing flanges are changed... 

I agree that is the best option hands down.

for what its worth; I have the moser green ends on my 8 3/4 with wilwood rear disks on my challenger that I autocross 6 to 8 times a summer, and drive about 6000 hard fun miles with her and no issues.

enjoy

[bill440rt]

I have the moser green ends on my 8 3/4 with wilwood rear disks on my challenger that I autocross 6 to 8 times a summer, and drive about 6000 hard fun miles with her and no issues.

enjoy

Good to know. I have the same on my Charger. Always hear horror stories, but supposedly the Moser snap-ring greens are supposed to be better than the regular flange type?

[Tom Q]

What's important is that you not heed some of the advice given on mopar forums, esp it worked for me me so it's ok regardless of the shortcomings.

Green bearings are a poor choice for any application esp if you plan on turning a corner.

Autocrossing on green bearings is nothing to be proud of.

[elacruze]

First of all, ask yourself if you need the 'stopping power' of rear discs. They aren't much if any stronger than drums unless you're roadracing or coastdown racing. If you want them for the looks, as stated Dr. Diff has what you need. I'm not at all in favor of green bearings, and I question their benefit even in a drag race effort.

[Chryco Psycho]

The real difference is not the first stop it is the 3rd , rear drums will fade & lose their stopping ability just like front drums do . Discs are still a far better system & do approx 30% of the work so  most street driven vehicles would hardly know the difference . there are some systems designed to work with both the tapered brgs & the disc so that is the route I would choose for the best of both worlds . I am not a fan of the Green brgs as they are a poorer design .

[flyinlow]

First of all, ask yourself if you need the 'stopping power' of rear discs. They aren't much if any stronger than drums unless you're roadracing or coastdown racing.

I will take all the stopping power I can afford.

[Rolling_Thunder]

I kept my tapered bearings - I do not believe the green bearings are the better choice for a road course...     That is not to say they won't work - but I just believe the tapered bearings are a better choice.

I like read drums - but I swapped to discs on my charger only because I was doing a front disc brake swap 

[flyinlow]

I have a spare Mosier green bearing, now I will have to cut it open and see how it designed to handle side loads. I assume it has many flat rollers with convex ends that push on the side of the axlebearing housing under side load. I always thought the down load on these rollers, 1000 lbs. per rear wheel plus the temporary increases in the G load hitting bumps ,was higher than the lateral G loads my Charger can produce, .80G on a good day. Only a few of the rollers on the top support the weight of the car , which could spike to several times the normal load hitting a chuck hole. All of the roller ends would share the side loads , never ex ceding .80 unless I slide sideways into a curb or other ledge.

If they are a quality bearing to begin with , I think they will work .

The tapered system requires the balancing side load from the opposite side at all times thru the center section with proper adjustment. Admittedly not that difficult to adjust.

[Rolling_Thunder]

I always just worry about green bearings looking like this       

This is a front bearing out of the last 4-speed I rebuilt.



Looks slightly worn to me

[thedodgeboys]

Has anybody actully had a properly installed and maintaind green bearing fail?
Not I know a guy who knew a guy that....  story but real world carnage?

Design wise the originals may handel more side load, i get that part.

Or is this all just hypothetical concern over not using parts on mopars that are not factory installed?

My challeng with the original design when adding rear disk is pad knock back from the axel moving from side to side.

I guess if someone is really serious they should just build a full floater rear end and not worry about what if

[BrianShaughnessy]

Has anybody actully had a properly installed and maintaind green bearing fail?

First set of snap ring greenies...  failed within a few thousand miles ... BUT the rear end didn't have the inner seals installed.   Somebody tried to tell me they shouldn't have failed as they're sealed but they didn't see the failed bearings.

But I made the mistake of using the fixed MP replacements.   Driver side didn't last long.  Replaced it with snap ring. 

I replaced the other side last year with the snap ring for the aerospace brakes.    Driver side was still OK.   The wilwood backing plate / e-brake setup requires snap ring versions.

I'll repeat it...  if I had to do it over I'd use ford ends / bearings and save the hassle of greenie failure or stock bearing adjustment.

[Kern Dog]

You guys KNOW that "Green" is a brand name, right?
GREEN bearings is the same as saying Kleenex tissue or Jiffy Pop popcorn.
Mopar Performance alse sells these types of bearings.

[BrianShaughnessy]

You guys KNOW that "Green" is a brand name, right?
GREEN bearings is the same as saying Kleenex tissue or Jiffy Pop popcorn.
Mopar Performance alse sells these types of bearings.

MP sells the fixed version...  not the preferred snap ring version. http://www.summitracing.com/parts/DCC-5249444/

[flyinlow]

Do you have more info on the Dr.Diff Ford bearings?

[BrianShaughnessy]

Do you have more info on the Dr.Diff Ford bearings?

It's not really a Dr. Diff thing.   He makes a living doing rear ends and parts.       Torino ends and bearings are something that needs to be planned in advance.    Utilize ford brakes, etc.

Hindsight is 20/20, blah blah.

[flyinlow]

I just could not find the info on his website. Are the ford bearings larger? Tappered or flat?

[BrianShaughnessy]

I just could not find the info on his website. Are the ford bearings larger? Tappered or flat?

You'd be better off looking around Moser / Stranger,  etc. websites.   

Ford bearings aka: Torino bearings are taper bearings.     Require torino housing ends on the rear.   They're larger AND tapered.    They have retainers on the axle much like the green bearings so they don't require adjustment blah blah like the stock mopar stuff and being tapered they run corners, etc.

[thedodgeboys]

I just could not find the info on his website. Are the ford bearings larger? Tappered or flat?

http://www.moserengineering.com/other-parts/housing-ends/big-ford-3-8-holes.html

http://www.moserengineering.com/other-parts/bearings.html?order=name&dir=asc&p=1

[flyinlow]

Thanks for the links.

So you use the Large ford bearings that match the Mopar axles (1.562) and fit the housing ends to my 8 3/4 tubes?

The ball bearings are more durable than a roller?

[Musicman]

I'm not a Ford guy so PLEASE CORRECT ME if I'm wrong, but I believe this is the Big Ford bearing under discussion here.

http://www.moserengineering.com/other-parts/bearings/part-9mtr-timken-tapered-roller-bearing.html

[thedodgeboys]

Thanks for the links.

So you use the Large ford bearings that match the Mopar axles (1.562) and fit the housing ends to my 8 3/4 tubes?

The ball bearings are more durable than a roller?

Im sure the guys at moser will get you all the correct parts to do it right.

[Bigtree]

Use Doctor Diffs kit (check his web-site), low prices and keep the taper-bearings the way Mopar intended!

[pro451bee]

Bear Iron sport works with Mopar tapered too.

[Brads70]

I went with a DrDiff Dana 60 with oversize tapered roller bearings and his rear disc kit. I saved a few bucks machining the caliper bracket and rotor myself.

[BrianShaughnessy]

Nice! 

[dangina]

Has anybody actully had a properly installed and maintaind green bearing fail?

First set of snap ring greenies...  failed within a few thousand miles ... BUT the rear end didn't have the inner seals installed.   Somebody tried to tell me they shouldn't have failed as they're sealed but they didn't see the failed bearings.

But I made the mistake of using the fixed MP replacements.   Driver side didn't last long.  Replaced it with snap ring. 

I replaced the other side last year with the snap ring for the aerospace brakes.    Driver side was still OK.   The wilwood backing plate / e-brake setup requires snap ring versions.

I'll repeat it...  if I had to do it over I'd use ford ends / bearings and save the hassle of greenie failure or stock bearing adjustment.


can you use the ford bearings with the wilwoods?

[BrianShaughnessy]

Has anybody actully had a properly installed and maintaind green bearing fail?

First set of snap ring greenies...  failed within a few thousand miles ... BUT the rear end didn't have the inner seals installed.   Somebody tried to tell me they shouldn't have failed as they're sealed but they didn't see the failed bearings.

But I made the mistake of using the fixed MP replacements.   Driver side didn't last long.  Replaced it with snap ring. 

I replaced the other side last year with the snap ring for the aerospace brakes.    Driver side was still OK.   The wilwood backing plate / e-brake setup requires snap ring versions.

I'll repeat it...  if I had to do it over I'd use ford ends / bearings and save the hassle of greenie failure or stock bearing adjustment.

can you use the ford bearings with the wilwoods?

"Probably" takes a different wilwood kit but haven't looked into it. 

Again... ford bearings require axle housing ends changed and axle modifications....   

[green69rt]

Tried to go to the doctordiff site and got a no show.   Is he still in business??  Also nothing on ebay that I could find.

[BrianShaughnessy]

Tried to go to the doctordiff site and got a no show.   Is he still in business??  Also nothing on ebay that I could find.

http://www.doctordiff.com/

Works for me 

[green69rt]

Ok, now it works, the wonders of the internet.

[dangina]

I wonder why they haven't found a way to use these tapered wheel bearings that are the same as in my toyota - they are the cats ass - it takes me under 15 min to swap out the pumpkin and axles when I need to, no adjusting or anything, just pull out the axles, slap the new ones in. pic: