Removing my 383 engine for class. Needs tips. (Update 03/18/2012 ALL DONE!)

[Supercharged Riot]

**I have never done this before**

Engine: 383 (casting # unknown)
Transmission: A833 (4 speed)
Rear End: Dana 60

Hey guys.

The situation:
I'm taking an engine rebuilding class.
I got a deadline to get the engine out of the car in 1 week or else I fall behind in class and forced to drop the class.
The car is at home, but I was told I can get the car to class only for 1 day to remove the engine.
It cannot stay over night. No exceptions.


What I have done so far:
Radiator removed
I drained the coolant
I drained the motor oil.


What I think I should do next:
I think I'm supposed to clear out the engine bay so that I don't risk damaging my parts
Can I just unbolt the A833 from the engine and remove the engine alone and keep the A833 in the car?? or should I take out the transmission with it? (I don't have space to store the transmission outside of the car)

Drain the transmission oil (I dunno where or how. is it easy?)
Drain the brake fluid
Remove the steering wheel components
Remove all electrical wires
Detach the headers (might be tricky taking the engine out with headers attached?)
Detach


I need your professional suggestions since I'm in a time crunch to keep up with class and I really want to start working on the engine.
Is there a general check-off list procedure for the order of things to remove?

Thanks alot

[RallyeMike]

What I think I should do next:
I think I'm supposed to clear out the engine bay so that I don't risk damaging my parts Not really, though you should remove the radiator.
Can I just unbolt the A833 from the engine and remove the engine alone and keep the A833 in the car?? or should I take out the transmission with it? (I don't have space to store the transmission outside of the car) Either way will work.

Drain the transmission oil (I dunno where or how. is it easy?) There is no drain plug. It will come out the tailshaft if you decide to take the trans out with the engine.
Drain the brake fluid Why? No need.
Remove the steering wheel components Why? No need.
Remove all electrical wires. Just unplug everything off the engine and lay it back out of the way. No need to remove everything.
Detach the headers (might be tricky taking the engine out with headers attached?) You have to detach the headers at the head flange minimum. Probably at the collector too.

Based on these questions, if you really are in a crunch, I would find an experienced volunteer to help you. Its way easier with two people anyway, though one can certainly do it.

[resq302]

Remove all of the accessory stuff like the alternator, A/C compressor, radiator, power steering pump and lines, fan, water pump pulley, master pulley, carb, and any other excess lines that will be in your way (like electrical wires, heater hoses, vacuum hoses, etc.) 

You can take the trans out with the engine attached or unbolt it from the bell housing.  Either way, it can be done, its personal preference.  If you do decide to remove the trans with the engine, there is a drain bolt on the lower side of the trans.  Should be lower and more centered than where the fill is.

As for the headers, you might have to unbolt them from the head and also undo them at the collector.  I am not 100% sure on this as I have never had a car with headers.

[Troy]

Don't mess with the steering or brakes.

Basically removing the engine in one of these cars is pretty simple. Remove the air cleaner and fan so you can get to everything else. Disconnect everything that is attached to the engine on one end and the car on the other (fuel line, battery ground, electrical connections, throttle cable, vacuum lines, etc.). Make sure you mark everything you remove and save the hardware individually (sandwich bags with labels are a good idea). Pictures can help when it's time to put it all back together. The exhaust is probably easiest to remove at the header collector to pipe connection - but you may still need to remove the headers to get the engine all the way out (some have the steering linkage bound up in there). You'll have more room to maneuver (especially when pulling the trans) if you remove the pulleys, belts, and accessories from the front. Leave the balancer on (big disc that the lower puller is bolted to).

If you have nowhere to put the transmission then leave it in the car - or it will easily fit in the trunk once disconnected. Some of the bolts on the bell housing can be a pain to remove while in the car but it's still less effort than removing it all. You'll need a way to support it though! The engine typically holds up the front end. You'll need disconnect the clutch fork linkage to take pressure off the throwout bearing. Then slide the engine forward several inches to clear the input shaft. Roughly the process is to raise the engine and trans a bit, slide the engine forward without allowing the trans to drop or bind, and then raise straight up once they are separated.

If you remove the trans as an assembly you need to disconnect the drive shaft (undo the rear universal joint and slide it backwards). You'll also have to disconnect all the clutch linkage, remove the shifter (or at least the handle), and disconnect the wiring. If you have a console it will have to come out to access the shifter. You'll need a good way to tilt the whole deal as it won't go straight out. I use a "load leveler" and will sometimes raise the back of the car with a jack so the engine/trans doesn't have to be tilted excessively.

Even though you've drained the coolant there will likely still be some in the engine passages. You'll likely make a mess when tilting/swinging the engine while trying to get it out.

Troy

[elacruze]

It's really as easy as it sounds, you just have to stick with it.

First, pay very close attention to details. If you forget to disconnect one wire or fuel line you'll pull it out and be sorry.

I'd leave the trans in the car. Disconnect the driveshaft from the rear axle, leave the nose in the trans. Get some 4x4s and towels to block the trans when it comes out-it's heavy, if you're not a bullmoose you'll probably need a floor jack.

Most times you can take the headers off the heads and get the motor out without a lot of drama.

An engine hook with the crank to adjust fore/aft height is a great help, otherwise you'll at least scratch something and have more work. Be very careful not to snag the harmonic damper on the radiator core support-depending on your bellhousing, the clearance between the firewall and core support is pretty tight.

Prepare whatever you're going to set the engine on beforehand so you can get it off the hook as soon as possible.

[Rolling_Thunder]

Supercharged -    

Follow the steps:

1. Remove supercharger and intake manifold (store in safe location)
2. Remove hood of the car
3. Drain and remove radiator & disconnect heater hoses if equipped. Also disconnect power steering lines if equipped.
4. Crawl under car and remove the driveshaft, and drain the transmission (small drain plug on the bottom side of it), Also disconnect 4-speed linkage at the frame rail by removing the ball stud from the bracket - allowing you to remove the "Z" bar. Disconnect reverse light wiring and speedo cable. Remove the transmission cross member
5. Go into the car and remove the shift boot ring and boot, remove the shifter handle.
6. Engine bay - disconnect and label all wiring from the engine - does not need to be completely removed from engine bay - just disconnected from the engine and "peeled back" out of the way. Drain the engine oil while doing this.
7. Bolt on a chain for the engine hoist to grab - I highly recommend an engine tilter that will allow you to pivot the engine on the way in and out (harbor freight sells a decent one)
8. Remove the motor mount bolts and unbolt the headers. Then disconnect the fuel line.
9. Move the engine hoist into position and remove the engine / transmission combo by hoisting.
10. Once removed from the car, separate the transmission / bellhousing from the engine and store under the car.

That's what I can think of off the top of my head...     

[Supercharged Riot]

Excellent help as always guys ! Thanks for giving me the procedure. I'll post pics. It's time for me to start working on my car this year 

[Rolling_Thunder]

Hey Riot - you're local to southern Ca aren't you? If you need a hand this coming week shoot me a PM - Be willing to come give you a hand.   

[Supercharged Riot]

02/27/2012

All labeled up

The following has been removed thus far:
Spark plugs
Alternator
Blower belt & brackets
Pulleys
Engine temperature sensor
Radiator

[resq302]

Power steering pump would either need to be disconnected from the engine and moved to the side or have the hoses disconnected in order to get the engine out.  What I did when I pulled my engine was just unbolt it from the engine and move it off to the side.  (less messy)

[elacruze]

Labels, lots of labels. I like your attention to detail.

[404NOTFOUND]

And don't forget safety. When you rush, you f*** up. Once you get that engine high in the air, there should be no reason to put your hands between the bottom of the engine and the car. Make sure the floor is swept under the engine hoist so it rolls easily and evenly and move it slowly. If you are working in a large shop, you can even push back the now much lighter car instead while the engine hangs motionless. Watch for anything you might have forgotten to disconnect. Personally, I've done this different ways. I prefer to disconnect the headers and leave the transmission in the car. When it's time to put the engine back in and you are reconnecting the engine to the transmission, remember what they taught you in health class. "Never force it, it slides right in"

[Supercharged Riot]

02/29/2012

Progress from last night. I removed the following:

Hilborn Air Scoop
Carburetors
Throttle cable connection to the carburetors
Power steering pump






I got a couple questions:

1) I am leaving the transmission in the car. I will only pull the engine out. Do I still need to drain my transmission? Will the transmission fluid leak if I disconnect the engine from it?

2) I ran into a problem when I took a look at my rear exhaust system (see pictures below). The nut & bolt that holds it in place in the rear of the car are WELDED!!!?? Is there a way to break the bolt without some torch? I am trying to get it off before I get it towed to class this Friday. Ideas will be greatly appreciated.

3) Do I need to remove the starter also? It looks hard to get to with my hears in the way. (I cannot remove the hears right now either. Not enough room while the engine is still sitting in the engine bay).




yes. this one is also welded too.

[nvrbdn]

id cut the bolt with a hand grinder. no, you wont lose fluid from removing the engine, but once the engine is loose and out, the front of the tranny should be supported up. when im removing an engine, i take styrofoam and push the bolts into it and mark on it where each group of bolts comes from. you can do the same with zip lock bags. i just like the styrofoam. the starter needs to come out cuz its bolted to the trans housing but lines up with the flywheel that comes out with the motor. the exhaust manifold should come off.even if you have to take out the motormount bolts and lift up a few inches before you take out the transmission bolts.but if you have manifold instead of hedders,you should be able to get the starter out from the bottom. you also have to take out the torque convertor bolts underneath.

[nvrbdn]

ok, you have hedders as i see in the pic. un bolt the hedder from the head. un bolt the motor mounts. keep the trans mounting bolts in and lift the engine till the hedder can be removed from the studs and let it slide down a little. the motor should be able to be lowered back down on the motor mounts so you can get to the starter. the hedders can just sit there while the motor is removed. make sure you have removed the collector bolts so the hedder is free to move around. the passenger side is easier to deal with.

[Supercharged Riot]

I have an manual A833 four speed transmission! same suggestion applies?

[nvrbdn]

nope if its a 4 speed, read troys post on the trans, but the starter still comes off with the hedders being removed the same way. the clutch and pressure plate will come out with the motor so no torque convertor bolts.

[Supercharged Riot]

02/29/2012

Nothing new to report on my mission to prep engine removal.
I only removed one thing tonight:

6-71 Blower

Should I take off my blower intake manifold? or should I keep it on so that the engine hoist has something to hold on to?


Farewell my friend. I don't think this will be on my car again.

[404NOTFOUND]

You can send that part to me to save you the trouble of reinstalling it.

[Troy]

I'd take the manifold off and bolt your lifting chain directly to the heads. Use good bolts!

Yes, the starter has to come off. Your trans won't leak from the front (normally at least) but you should support the front end in some way (I stack short pieces of 2x4 that I have laying around).

You probably don't have to disconnect the rear of the exhaust. Your headers (if you leave them attached) won't allow it to drop much in front any way. If you do want to take them off then cut the bolts. If you don't have a good grinder or air tools this could be time-consuming though and I don't believe it's necessary at this time.

Troy

[resq302]

When I had my engine out, I ended up wrapping a chain around the torsion bars to hold the trans up so it did not drop and damage the trans mount.  Probably could have even gotten away with putting a piece of 2x4 between the torsion bars and the trans to hold it in place too if I had one big enough.

[charger_fan_4ever]

Since your engine bay is all painted why not drop the k member/suspension/wheels and all out the bottom ? Once out unbolt the engine mounts and yank the motor then put the k member and suspension back up in place. I'd hate to scratch up the paint going out the top.

[Supercharged Riot]

Just taking a minute to post my progress tonight....

I took Troy & nvrbdn's advice and got a hand grinder with a cutting edge from Harbor Freight.
From a novice to a pro, Thanks Troy & nvrbdn! It worked out great.
My exhaust system is now free! (see pics below)

I can at least remove the exhaust system on the passenger side so that I have one less thing to worry about

I have another question. My A833 is kind of propped up with I think it called the transmission cross member (see pics below)
It doesn't look like this will keep the transmission in the car by itself am I correct?

I have to get AAA to tow my car back home, so I need a suggestion about whether I should pull the transmission out with the engine.
Otherwise, I'll just ask my teacher, but I thought I'd ask you guys first since some of you know Chargers better than I do.

I'm getting the engine removed in class (I'm using their engine hoist) and I have to take my Charger home the same day by the end of class.





I used this affordable tool to cut through the welds on the nut & bolt that held my exhaust system in a permanent position.




Now both can be screwed out with ease

[Supercharged Riot]

ok, you have hedders as i see in the pic. un bolt the hedder from the head. un bolt the motor mounts. keep the trans mounting bolts in and lift the engine till the hedder can be removed from the studs and let it slide down a little. the motor should be able to be lowered back down on the motor mounts so you can get to the starter. the hedders can just sit there while the motor is removed. make sure you have removed the collector bolts so the hedder is free to move around. the passenger side is easier to deal with.

I will use this advice. Thanks!

[nvrbdn]

if you are removing the trans, you have to disconnect the shift lever from the trans. drop the drive shaft. there will be four bolts on the rear end to remove to take the drive shaft down.unbolt the trans from the cross member, take down the cross member, then unbolt the trans from the bell housing. there will be four bolts for the trans. slide the trans back. it will be a little heavy if your laying on your back, so a jack might help support it. then take the clutch fork out of the bell housing and the clutch, pressure plate and bell housing can go out with the motor, or you can remove them while your under the car now. its up to you.

[Supercharged Riot]

if you are removing the trans, you have to disconnect the shift lever from the trans. drop the drive shaft. there will be four bolts on the rear end to remove to take the drive shaft down.unbolt the trans from the cross member, take down the cross member, then unbolt the trans from the bell housing. there will be four bolts for the trans. slide the trans back. it will be a little heavy if your laying on your back, so a jack might help support it. then take the clutch fork out of the bell housing and the clutch, pressure plate and bell housing can go out with the motor, or you can remove them while your under the car now. its up to you.

I was actually going to ask about the drive shaft next.
Once I unbolt the 4 bolts (towards the rear of the car), can I easily pull the drive shaft from the A833 transmission (front part)?


So I unbolt these 4 bolts, the back half of the drive shaft drops and....


...I just pull the drive shaft from the tail end of the transmission? or is there something else holding this in? (I'll bet draining the transmission fluid would be a good idea at this point also. Isn't there some kind of rubber plug I can buy to seal off the tail end of the transmission to prevent transmission fluid from spilling out of the tail end?

[Troy]

If you have to move the car after pulling the engine you should probably remove the trans as well. The trans cross member at the rear will only hold up the tail - the front will be hanging out in space once the engine is disconnected. Same for the engine - if you remove the trans then the rear of the engine has no support. I wouldn't try to transport the car in either situation. Also, rolling the car will spin the rear axles, diff, drive shaft, and trans output shaft which could cause the trans to shift around. You could chain it to the torsion bars as mentioned but, whatever you do, make sure it's secure before hitting the road. Again, I think it would be safer - although more work - to pull the trans and stick it in the trunk.

Be careful with AAA as they aren't supposed to move disassembled cars (it is an "emergency service" after all). I got away with it a few times when I was younger but I think it's because the tow truck drivers looked the other way.

Troy

[Troy]

if you are removing the trans, you have to disconnect the shift lever from the trans. drop the drive shaft. there will be four bolts on the rear end to remove to take the drive shaft down.unbolt the trans from the cross member, take down the cross member, then unbolt the trans from the bell housing. there will be four bolts for the trans. slide the trans back. it will be a little heavy if your laying on your back, so a jack might help support it. then take the clutch fork out of the bell housing and the clutch, pressure plate and bell housing can go out with the motor, or you can remove them while your under the car now. its up to you.

I was actually going to ask about the drive shaft next.
Once I unbolt the 4 bolts (towards the rear of the car), can I easily pull the drive shaft from the A833 transmission (front part)?


So I unbolt these 4 bolts, the back half of the drive shaft drops and....


...I just pull the drive shaft from the tail end of the transmission? or is there something else holding this in? (I'll bet draining the transmission fluid would be a good idea at this point also. Isn't there some kind of rubber plug I can buy to seal off the tail end of the transmission to prevent transmission fluid from spilling out of the tail end?

Honestly, I'm not sure the 833 will leak out the tail. Mine ever have. At least not noticeably. An automatic will pour fluid out the back end.

Be careful with the universal joint (the thing at the end of the drive shaft with those 4 bolts). The bolts hold down some straps that wrap around the bearing caps. You'll probably have to apply some pressure to the caps to get them out of the rear end (just slide the drive shaft forward with even pressure). Be careful as the caps can come loose which, not only makes a mess (full of grease) but you can lose or shift the needle bearings inside. Once the shaft is disconnected from the rear end, drop it down a little and slide it backwards out of the transmission. After the shaft out it's a good idea to secure these caps or at least secure a plastic bag around the end of the assembly so no parts go missing.

Troy

[nvrbdn]

right you are troy. its a good idea to have masking tape and when the drive shaft is loose from the rear end, wrap a couple laps of tape around the u joint caps. and again as said, if you remove the drive shaft, shift lever, and clutch linkage from the bell house, the trans could come out with the motor at the school and trans, bell housing, clutch  and pressure plate can go in the trunk. that way the motor and trans can be supported on the way to the school.

[Supercharged Riot]

I got a couple questions.

1) should I remove the drive shaft before or after I tow the charger? I'm a lol worried the engine might not be stable with out the drive shaft installed
2) can I just swap in a 440 into my a833? Or is it more complicated than that?

[Rolling_Thunder]

Driveshaft has no bearing on engine stability.

You can swap a 440 in to your car without problem - bellhousing, transmission, etc will all work with a 440.

[nvrbdn]

i always remove the drive shaft if im towing a vehicle.

[Troy]

Well don't build the 383 and then swap in a 440! Yes, a 440 will go right in there - same motor mounts, bell housing, clutch, etc. However, the 440 came with a stronger version of the 833 than the 383. When you get it apart count the splines on the input shaft (a 383 came with 23 and the 440 came with 18).

You can remove the drive shaft before towing or not (but I don't). It shouldn't matter with the stick shift (unless it happens to fall into gear). More than likely they'll pick it up from the rear (especially if you ask) or, hopefully, they'll have a rollback.

Troy

[Rolling_Thunder]

Troy - i thought most 440s came with the 23 spline 4-speed - some came through with an 18 spline ? 

[resq302]

Troy - i thought most 440s came with the 23 spline 4-speed - some came through with an 18 spline ? 

Nope, ALL 440s came with the 18 spline trans.  Same with the hemi's.

[Cooter]

I have yet to break even a 23 spline 833 with a 440....Don't need the 18 spline. Especisally when a blown 440 ain't gonna hook in a 50 acre field.

[Troy]

Troy - i thought most 440s came with the 23 spline 4-speed - some came through with an 18 spline ? 

That's why "Hemi 4-speed" is a misnomer - it came behind 440s and Hemis. The 23 spline was for 383s and small blocks. The primary difference is the input shaft. If you're not hooking up it won't matter which one you use.

Troy

[Rolling_Thunder]

Ah - learn something new every day.   

I have never broken a 23 spline either. I don't think there is a strength consideration

[Troy]

There are people who swear an 8 3/4 rear can handle anything too. Mopar put 18 spline transmissions and Dana rear ends behind the 440 and Hemi for a reason (avoiding warranty repairs).

The reason I said to check is because this car may very well have an 18 spline already. Who knows what happened in the last 40 years?

Troy

[Supercharged Riot]

Thanks  for the answers guys. I'm just seeing what my options are. I just read that there isn't much fuel economy difference between 440's and 383's. And if 440' s are compatible enough. I might as well upgrade to a 440.

I wanna build an engine that has somewhere around 400 - 500hp

[Troy]

Thanks  for the answers guys. I'm just seeing what my options are. I just read that there isn't much fuel economy difference between 440's and 383's. And if 440' s are compatible enough. I might as well upgrade to a 440.

I wanna build an engine that has somewhere around 400 - 500hp

With headers, a decent intake, and a cam a stock 440 will easily be in that range. No need to build one! A later 440 with low compression may need pistons to bring it back up to early specs but a good rebuild will include them any way. The 383 can get there too - but the 440 will have more torque no matter what and it will cost about the same (other than the fact that you have a 383 and would need to purchase the 440). Horsepower keeps you moving after torque gets you moving.

Have you ever been in a car with 500 horsepower?

Troy

[Supercharged Riot]

Well I removed the bolts from the rear end of the drive shaft.
I marked the installed  position of my drive shaft already with a sharpe marker
The drive shaft has no room to move forward or backward, so I'm assuming I gotta use some soft hammer to loosen the drive shaft up.
Correct me if i'm wrong


Oh yeah that bottom piece cannot come out because no room.

[Supercharged Riot]

Nevermind.
Using a soft hammer worked after all 


Drive shaft disconnected from the rear end

[matrout76]

wrap electrical tape around the u-joint caps to keep them from falling off and losing the needle bearings.

[Supercharged Riot]

The engine us finally out fellas.
Thanks for all the advice.
All of it helped.
Now i gotta clean up organize my parts and start dismantling my engine this week.
I'll make an update on my build thread later and post more pics.

[Rolling_Thunder]

mmmmmm  build thread....       

[Supercharged Riot]

Here are the last pics
Not much during the removal because I was very busy getting work done.


Tow truck came late. And I was late for class....I was cranky when he finally showed up 2.5 hrs after I called.


Getting engine removed.


Engine out



I wasn't allowed to keep my car at school so it was a lot of pressure to get everything done by the end of class AND my tow guy came late.
I barely got the job done.
This is my car hanging out with me outside after class waiting for another tow guy to take Valerie and I home...

Thanks everyone!

[Troy]

Nice job! Sometimes it's good to have a deadline because you keep moving. Other times it's bad because you get in a hurry and break stuff (or forget to document where something came from).

Troy

[Ghoste]

Nice to see the pics and good to hear it all went well.  You'll have to keep us updated on the next phase too.

[Back N Black]

Nice fatties on the back! is the car tubbed?

[Supercharged Riot]

Yeah my rear wheel wells are tubbed. It looks a lot worse when you look underneath, but I'll get into details on my car's thread later.
It only looks good from 15 ft. away.