Tesla Motor's $40,000.00 Battery Repair

[CAPER]

http://jalopnik.com/5887265/tesla-motors-devastating-design-problem

[Troy]

If you continually run your car out of gas you will destroy the fuel pump. If you drive with deflated tires you'll likely have a blowout - or at least severe tire wear. If you regularly park on a steep hill and only using the automatic transmission to keep from rolling you'll eventually snap the parking pawl and cause internal damage. You can't make a car idiot proof. Rich idiots tend to have big mouths though. Seriously, the one story was about a car shipped to Japan before the owner realized they have a different power grid. How is that the car company's fault?

The battery in the Tesla is pretty unique so I figured it would be expensive. That's a lot of money though!

The new AGM and gel car batteries suffer the same fate. However, you can generally charge them by running a full battery in series between the charger and dead battery. As far as I know, this isn't covered by warranty either.

Troy

[Mike DC]

       

It sounds to me like Tesla is handling the immediate problem without a lot of common sense.  I can think of some things to do about it right off the top of my head.  


Tesla should cover the cost of replacing the batteries.  Sticking the customers with that kind of bill is going to kill the brand IMHO.  Just the knowledge of that risk is enough to put off too many buyers from ever considering buying a Tesla.  

Replacing the batteries won't cost Tesla too much as long as the problem remains pretty rare.  They should give the customer just enough of a "deductible" cost to keep them from getting careless about it.  Maybe $5-10K out-of-pocket would do it.   Maybe allow each buyer one cheap replacement (at that $5-10K level) and then every additional battery after that costs them a lot more.    

------------------------------------------------


Tesla shouldn't be GPS-ing cars and chasing down dying batteries without the customers' knowledge.  What idiot thought that up?  This battery situation calls for the opposite approach if anything.  

Tesla should be openly telling the customers that they will remotely-monitor the cars to protect them.  Hell, this service could be SOLD to customers for a small monthly fee.   For a bigger monthly fee, the customer could pay Tesla for "coverage" where the factory dispatches some guys to go chase down the car and charge the battery.  (If the factory fails to do it, then the customer is off the hook for the battery cost as part of the deal.)


If Tesla can't handle a problem like this then I don't think they're competent enough to be a major automaker.

[bull]

Seriously, the one story was about a car shipped to Japan before the owner realized they have a different power grid. How is that the car company's fault?

Troy

I think the company should be somewhat culpable in that situation, assuming they knew the car was headed for Japan. They should be a little more adept at knowing where/how the car will be used. A friend of mine from here in Oregon tried to buy a Ram pickup from a dealer in Idaho and they were smart enough to figure out that the Idaho DEQ standards were not as strict at Oregon's and had he bought it he would have been saddled with a lot of major hassles. I guess the dealer could have ignored the fact, or just not bothered to look into it, but that's what I would call crappy customer service and it doesn't bode well when trying to sell cars.

That "brick" syndrome is ALL Tesla's fault. It should not even be possible to ruin a $32k battery set by fully discharging it. They could at least equip the car with a safeguard volt/amp meter that completely kills all parsitic draw once it reaches a certain level of discharge. If a Tesla mechanic called me and told me he wanted $40k to fix my car I would tell him, congratulations, you now own a Tesla. And that would be the last dime the company ever got from me. Seems Tesla understated the importance of this "bricking" feature too, according to the article.

"With such a large price tag for a bricked vehicle, it would be reasonable to expect Tesla to go to great lengths to ensure their customers were fully aware of the severity of battery discharge. Instead it seems that Tesla, while working to make it clear their vehicles should always be left plugged in, also appears to have focused on trying not to spook their current and future customers about the potentially severe ramifications of complete battery discharge."

[Troy]

I guess I'm just mean. How come when some rich dufus with no driving skills spins and crashes a Viper/Corvette/Lamborghini/sport bike on its maiden voyage it gets a big laugh but the same fool can "brick" his Tesla and get compassion? The roadster is a $100k car sold to people as a status symbol. If they can't be bothered to take the required precautions then maybe they should rethink their transportation needs. If I were to buy one the closest repair facility is Chicago - about 5 hours from me in Cincinnati. There's not anything "routine" about the maintenance. These are things the buyer knows up front (or should if they pay any attention at all).

On the other hand, Tesla should have predicted that half these people would never drive the cars. Although, I bet their clients aren't the type of people who appreciate a salesman hammering them with care and feeding instructions. Heck, most probably had someone else pick it up for them. My friend has a Porsche 911 that he drives about 10 miles per year. The annual check up runs just over $5k. A "tune-up" on a Ferrari is in the $10-20k range. My boss paid just over $10k for a transmission rebuild in his $50k Jaguar with 30k miles. If you have the means to purchase a $100k car that you never drive then you can afford a $40k battery *when you do something dumb*. I believe the charging station alone is $10k.

How many people here leave their classic car parked all winter without disconnecting the battery or using a trickle charger? Why? Because hopping into a dead car on the first nice day of spring is a real drag. Last week a friend of mine had a problem with the automatic locks on their car - they couldn't get out! Had to climb through the sunroof. Imagine if every single system on the car was dependent on electricity. It couldn't even turn on to tell you it was dead. My cell phone does the same thing. If I let it discharge fully more than a few times it will never recover. A replacement battery is $20 more than I paid for the phone.

As for tracking the cars and notifying the owners, I don't agree. Without a contract specifying that you will do it you're leaving yourself open to a lawsuit from the next idiot who doesn't get a notification before his car dies. Build it in and sell it as a service like OnStar.

Tesla is in unenviable position where if they are too stern with their warnings they will scare off customers but if they are too nonchalant then they are perceived as not doing enough. Last time I checked they had sold 100% of their cars and had a sizable waiting list. I'd go with whatever approach will sustain that.

Troy

[elacruze]

It's no secret that most of the world uses 240vac. Tesla should have dual voltage chargers, since the cost is nearly nil to do so.

However, it's the owner's responsibility to know what he has; if he chooses to be completely ignorant about his car he better have a personal valet.

No sympathy here.

[Chad L. Magee]

I think it would bequeath Tesla motors to build a solar charger (trickle) into the body somewhere to prevent most total discharge situations for these cars.  That could be done relatively cheaply and would be a cost effective way to stop the bad PR.  Granted, owners should understand what they are doing to their batteries if they discharge them too long.  That is just common sense.....

[Ghoste]

Common sense isnt though.

[Troy]

I think it would bequeath Tesla motors to build a solar charger (trickle) into the body somewhere to prevent most total discharge situations for these cars.  That could be done relatively cheaply and would be a cost effective way to stop the bad PR.  Granted, owners should understand what they are doing to their batteries if they discharge them too long.  That is just common sense.....

Nice idea but... who parks a Tesla roadster outside long enough to drain the battery?

Troy

[Ghoste]

If you lack the sense to keep it from going brick, would you have enough sense to not leave where a solar charger would work?

[Chad L. Magee]

True...  Sunlight is something that they usually do not see enough of......

[bull]

Really? You guys don't think Tesla is at all responsible for this? Would any of you design and create a $32,000 charging system for anything that had no built-in failsafe?

[elacruze]

Really? You guys don't think Tesla is at all responsible for this? Would any of you design and create a $32,000 charging system for anything that had no built-in failsafe?

Sorry, not at all.

I think there's something in gas engine owners manuals that says don't let them sit around too long without taking care of the gas...

longer of course but nevertheless ignorance costs. How much isn't the issue.

[Troy]

Really? You guys don't think Tesla is at all responsible for this? Would any of you design and create a $32,000 charging system for anything that had no built-in failsafe?

The car is a limited production proof-of-concept that stretches the limits of electrical vehicle technology. At 0-60 in under 4 seconds and a range of almost 250 miles there have to be some compromises. At the time there may have been no better way to meet the requirements but if they started over today they may have gone a different route. Keeping the customer informed is their duty but where do you draw the line? Do they need to send along a live-in tech just to keep an eye on things?

I build software for a living and you wouldn't believe how much time and effort is spent on protecting the users from themselves. At some point you lose all usability due to the warning messages ("Are you sure you want to delete all sales history?") and have to *assume* the user has some basic level of competence. Failing that, we make sure to back up all data every 30-60 minutes...

For the record, Tesla has a service center in Tokyo.

Troy

[bull]

If the internal combustion engine were a relatively new invention, and running one of them out of gas cost the owner $32,000 (not counting an extra $6k+ in labor to replace it), I bet there would be a BFD made about how to take care of them until people figured it out. At any rate, I bet Tesla is going to get sued over this deal. And the way consumer law works in relation to jury liability trials (presumably in California) they will probably lose.

Really? You guys don't think Tesla is at all responsible for this? Would any of you design and create a $32,000 charging system for anything that had no built-in failsafe?

The car is a limited production proof-of-concept that stretches the limits of electrical vehicle technology. At 0-60 in under 4 seconds and a range of almost 250 miles there have to be some compromises. At the time there may have been no better way to meet the requirements but if they started over today they may have gone a different route. Keeping the customer informed is their duty but where do you draw the line? Do they need to send along a live-in tech just to keep an eye on things?

I build software for a living and you wouldn't believe how much time and effort is spent on protecting the users from themselves. At some point you lose all usability due to the warning messages ("Are you sure you want to delete all sales history?") and have to *assume* the user has some basic level of competence. Failing that, we make sure to back up all data every 30-60 minutes...

For the record, Tesla has a service center in Tokyo.

Troy

Compromises that can cost you $40k? That's a bit much. I understand your software analogy but I think most people would gladly pay a few extra bucks for a safeguard that would avoid something equally catastrophic. If one of your programs could destroy a hard drive if the battery went below 2% you'd probably, and understandably, have some pissed off customers. Even if there was a brief disclaimer hidden in your literature.

[Rolling_Thunder]

Totally the fault of the owner. Just like if you run a car without oil and then expect a free replacement engine.

It is not the fault of Tesla because the owners are dumb and do not maintain a machine.

[bull]

Well, remind me to never buy anything you guys built.

[bull]

Totally the fault of the owner. Just like if you run a car without oil and then expect a free replacement engine.

It is not the fault of Tesla because the owners are dumb and do not maintain a machine.

Since the advent of rechargeable batteries it's become obvious that you run them down and you charge them back up. When in your life have you ever heard of a rechargeable battery that totally croaks the first time it drops to 0%? Such a thing defies conventional logic, don't you think? And if someone was dumb enough to create such a thing, how much dumber would it be to create such a thing that costs $32,000 to replace and has no failsafe? It's not as if we're talking about a $23 cordless phone battery or a $60 cordless drill battery, neither of which turn into door stops if they get to 0%, do they? I've never heard of such a thing. I'd certainly be pissed if I found out the hard way that my $32,000 Tesla battery pack couldn't perform the same perfunctory recharge task as my cell phone battery.

[Silver R/T]

boy, $40K can buy a lot of gas....

[Mike DC]

  
Any sympathy that I had for Tesla went out the window when they didn't build the car to automatically shut off the parasitic drains on the battery past a certain power level.  They didn't even take that basic little step to buy a little more time before the battery is dead.  That degree of designer idiocy reads like something out of a Dilbert comic.    


Do they owe customers a replacement battery for a cheap cost?  No.  

But they would be wise to deal with this problem SOMEHOW without charging customers $40K if they want to stay in business.

 

[Fred]

boy, $40K can buy a lot of gas....

It sure can...............keep me happy for about 6 months 

[1969chargerrtse]

That's one of the safe guards put into the electric/gas Chevy Volt.  If the battery pack wears down the car automatically starts to recharger it.  They thought of everything.  
Just another reason for Ghost to love the car. 

[Ghoste]

Why would Ghoste care about automatic recharging in an object he has no intention of purchasing.  Maybe in a decade if the technology becomes viable I will look at it.  This bs with the Tesla is more proof of why electric cars aren't there yet.  

[Troy]

Totally the fault of the owner. Just like if you run a car without oil and then expect a free replacement engine.

It is not the fault of Tesla because the owners are dumb and do not maintain a machine.

Since the advent of rechargeable batteries it's become obvious that you run them down and you charge them back up. When in your life have you ever heard of a rechargeable battery that totally croaks the first time it drops to 0%? Such a thing defies conventional logic, don't you think? And if someone was dumb enough to create such a thing, how much dumber would it be to create such a thing that costs $32,000 to replace and has no failsafe? It's not as if we're talking about a $23 cordless phone battery or a $60 cordless drill battery, neither of which turn into door stops if they get to 0%, do they? I've never heard of such a thing. I'd certainly be pissed if I found out the hard way that my $32,000 Tesla battery pack couldn't perform the same perfunctory recharge task as my cell phone battery.

Go to the auto parts store, buy an AGM/Gel battery for your car, discharge it, and then try to recharge (without following the steps I listed earlier). Enjoy your new $200 doorstop!

Most rechargeable batteries in devices have a "memory". The earliest ones were really bad about not allowing a full charge if you didn't charge them properly initially (ie the battery would think it was fully charged when it was really at 30%). The new chargers have electronics to "fix" this - or, in reality, to "fix" the fact that the owner doesn't charge it correctly. Even so, have you noticed your cell phone or cordless drill seems to need recharged more often as it gets older?

The software I work on runs accounting, manufacturing, and warehousing/inventory so a dead hard drive is the least expensive thing that can get screwed up! Think about the cost of accidentally cutting a large piece of titanium alloy to the wrong size - and then shipping it to the customer who is on a deadline. A co-worker once helped design and build a robot operated storage system for biological samples (ie stuff you don't want to handle in person). There were rows of drawers with numbered samples and the robot would travel to the location, open the drawers, remove (or replace) the sample, and then return to the "home" location where the sample could be tested. The robot performed exactly to specs and everyone was ecstatic. However, the first time the power went out the operator hard booted the system before checking to see if all the drawers were closed. As the robot set about it's next task (not knowing anything about what it had done previously) there was a pretty spectacular collision which cost about $250k to fix. Yes, the next version included fail safes - but only because the operator couldn't be counted on to follow procedures.

If every product was designed perfectly from the start the world would be a better place. At best I think most totally new designs are 80-90% of that. Manufacturers will generally keep improving as flaws are found (see versions/patches/updates in software). Some designs aren't perfected at any point before they reach the end of their lifespan (space shuttle?). In the car world there are lots of examples of this. Look at how well our cars are sealed compared to the new versions. Compare the engine wear of a modern car to one 30-40 years old. At one point in time people assumed they'd need a new engine by 100k miles but now that's when the first recommended maintenance happens.

That's one of the safe guards put into the electric/gas Chevy Volt.  If the battery pack wears down the car automatically starts to recharger it.  They thought of everything. 
Just another reason for Ghost to love the car. 

Seriously? It starts the gas engine to recharge the battery? What happens when it runs out of gas after doing this for a month or so?

Troy

[1969chargerrtse]

Totally the fault of the owner. Just like if you run a car without oil and then expect a free replacement engine.

It is not the fault of Tesla because the owners are dumb and do not maintain a machine.

Since the advent of rechargeable batteries it's become obvious that you run them down and you charge them back up. When in your life have you ever heard of a rechargeable battery that totally croaks the first time it drops to 0%? Such a thing defies conventional logic, don't you think? And if someone was dumb enough to create such a thing, how much dumber would it be to create such a thing that costs $32,000 to replace and has no failsafe? It's not as if we're talking about a $23 cordless phone battery or a $60 cordless drill battery, neither of which turn into door stops if they get to 0%, do they? I've never heard of such a thing. I'd certainly be pissed if I found out the hard way that my $32,000 Tesla battery pack couldn't perform the same perfunctory recharge task as my cell phone battery.

Go to the auto parts store, buy an AGM/Gel battery for your car, discharge it, and then try to recharge (without following the steps I listed earlier). Enjoy your new $200 doorstop!

Most rechargeable batteries in devices have a "memory". The earliest ones were really bad about not allowing a full charge if you didn't charge them properly initially (ie the battery would think it was fully charged when it was really at 30%). The new chargers have electronics to "fix" this - or, in reality, to "fix" the fact that the owner doesn't charge it correctly. Even so, have you noticed your cell phone or cordless drill seems to need recharged more often as it gets older?

The software I work on runs accounting, manufacturing, and warehousing/inventory so a dead hard drive is the least expensive thing that can get screwed up! Think about the cost of accidentally cutting a large piece of titanium alloy to the wrong size - and then shipping it to the customer who is on a deadline. A co-worker once helped design and build a robot operated storage system for biological samples (ie stuff you don't want to handle in person). There were rows of drawers with numbered samples and the robot would travel to the location, open the drawers, remove (or replace) the sample, and then return to the "home" location where the sample could be tested. The robot performed exactly to specs and everyone was ecstatic. However, the first time the power went out the operator hard booted the system before checking to see if all the drawers were closed. As the robot set about it's next task (not knowing anything about what it had done previously) there was a pretty spectacular collision which cost about $250k to fix. Yes, the next version included fail safes - but only because the operator couldn't be counted on to follow procedures.

If every product was designed perfectly from the start the world would be a better place. At best I think most totally new designs are 80-90% of that. Manufacturers will generally keep improving as flaws are found (see versions/patches/updates in software). Some designs aren't perfected at any point before they reach the end of their lifespan (space shuttle?). In the car world there are lots of examples of this. Look at how well our cars are sealed compared to the new versions. Compare the engine wear of a modern car to one 30-40 years old. At one point in time people assumed they'd need a new engine by 100k miles but now that's when the first recommended maintenance happens.

That's one of the safe guards put into the electric/gas Chevy Volt.  If the battery pack wears down the car automatically starts to recharger it.  They thought of everything.  
Just another reason for Ghost to love the car.  

Seriously? It starts the gas engine to recharge the battery? What happens when it runs out of gas after doing this for a month or so?

Troy

You probably use a dimes worth of gas, and the car probably calls you to tell you its low on battery or gas the way they designed the thing.  That's what I read way back when the were first building it.