'69 Charger - Caliper Options

[Shakey]

I have seen numerous topics regarding disc brake swaps for a '69 Charger however I am interested in knowing what caliper options were available on a '69 Charger R/T with power disc brakes up front.

I have read about "4 piston calipers" - were there other types available?  If so, please elaborate. 

If not, why are they always refered to as "4 piston calipers" and not just "'69 Charger calipers"? 

Were they a one year only option? 

Were they used on other cars? 

Were they unique looking?

Are part #'s or casting #'s stamped on the housing?  If so, what are/were they?

Are these also refered to as "Kelsey Hayes" calipers that of course, would go with the Kelsey Hayes rotors?

Would calipers be different from a small block to a big block car?

Does anyone have some photos of these calipers? If so, could you point out the unique features of these calipers or something that would make them easy to identify?

Why are so many folks concerned about disc brake swaps - why not just source factory parts (spindles, calpers, power brake booster & master cyliner and rotors) from a salvage yard or Mopar used part specialist?  I realize they could be difficult to locate and could be pricey but I have always considered brakes kinda important - wouldn't it be money well spent?

Thanks in advance folks.   

[Mike DC]

The factory stuff has been outta production for a long time.  I think they're finally making a lot of it right now, but up until recently you were lucky to find replacement rotors for a factory disc-brake car.  The aftermarket jumped in to fill the void.  I don't remember all the details of the factory setup anymore, but I know it basically just has the typical issues: 

--  It's made of obscure-ass parts. 

--  It was adequate for 1969 but you could put together a much better-stopping setup with newer stuff.  (Example: The factory setup's stopping power was compromised to clear 14" wheels, whereas these days 3/4 of the hobby runs 15" rims anyway.) 

--  These days it costs just as much money to collect everything for the factory setup as it would cost to just buy upgraded parts for everything.

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"4-piston calipers?"

That's a hi-po thing.  Even today, most of the cars & trucks on the road are using plain old single-piston iron calipers.  The multiple pistions are usually overkill on the street. Lots of brake setups also advertise "aluminum capliers" too, but the aluminum construction is mainly because multiple-piston calipers are so much bigger(heavier) than single-piston ones are to begin with.

For a street car, you probably don't really need all that stuff (and the front end is probably gonna have less unspring weight without it).  Once you've got enough braking power to easily lock up the tires at any reasonable speed, then adding anything beyond that is just buying you more fade-resistance.  The whole trend of putting front discs on old Mopars is because the factory front drum brakes are so bad they oughtta be illegal.  We all need the front disc conversions just to get the car "easily locking up the tires at any reasonable speed" and to get enough fade-resistance to safely drive the car. 

.

[Shakey]

I was hoping to source all of the correct brake system components.  My fender tag shows my car came from the factory with power disc brakes but I have found a few other surprises while restoring it such as an incorrect fuel sending unit.  This is why I was looking for detailed information on the factory correct calipers.

Anyone else have some more info on these?

[BigBlockSam]

i,ve heard alot of bad stuff about the original calipers. that they stick alot . i have discs on the front of my 68 r/t and never had a problem. Rene

[BrianShaughnessy]

I was hoping to source all of the correct brake system components.  My fender tag shows my car came from the factory with power disc brakes but I have found a few other surprises while restoring it such as an incorrect fuel sending unit.  This is why I was looking for detailed information on the factory correct calipers.

Anyone else have some more info on these?

Chances are it did come with factory 4 piston calipers from the factory  .......  BUT   do you know how much of a PITA it was to get replacment parts for disk brakes way back when without spending a fortune at the dealer for rotors and calipers?     I'm sure some cheapazz probably swapped out the set of hung up calipers for good old drum brakes that they knew how to work on just like the old days way back when.    It wasn't like going to the parts store and getting $15 pads, $15 calipers, and $45 rotors like it is now.   

I see sets of factory 4 piston calipers and the rest of the poop advertised on the classifieds,  moparts, ebay, etc. occassionally, etc.    Prepare to fork out a lot.

[41husk]

I have a set of 4 pistons I was going to put on my 68 but I decided to Change out the disc from a 73 Charger instead.  If you want the 4 pistons I will be happy to sell them to you but honestly unless your going for the concourse resto I would pull a system from a 3rd gen and use those.  If you interested PM me.  I payed over $450 for them 2 years ago and would send them to you for $400 + shipping.

[Shakey]

I was hoping to source all of the correct brake system components.  My fender tag shows my car came from the factory with power disc brakes but I have found a few other surprises while restoring it such as an incorrect fuel sending unit.  This is why I was looking for detailed information on the factory correct calipers.

Anyone else have some more info on these?

Chances are it did come with factory 4 piston calipers from the factory  .......  BUT   do you know how much of a PITA it was to get replacment parts for disk brakes way back when without spending a fortune at the dealer for rotors and calipers?     I'm sure some cheapazz probably swapped out the set of hung up calipers for good old drum brakes that they knew how to work on just like the old days way back when.    It wasn't like going to the parts store and getting $15 pads, $15 calipers, and $45 rotors like it is now.   

I see sets of factory 4 piston calipers and the rest of the poop advertised on the classifieds,  moparts, ebay, etc. occassionally, etc.    Prepare to fork out a lot.

My car does have a disc brake set up on it now.  I am just not 100% sure what is there.  I know for a fact that the master cylinder is not right.  I have one that the lid is held down with a nut and a clamp where I should have one with a bail wire folding over to keep the lid in place.  Also, my two lines come out of the master on the fender side where they should be coming out on the engine side.  Feel free to correct me if I am wrong anyone!

As far as the calipers go, I am not 100% about those.  I was hoping to get some feedback with photos of what to look for and what they look like so I could compare it to mine.  For all I know, I could have the proper set on there now.

As far as forkin' out dough, I feel that it would be money well spent however I don't want to pay too much.  I am not in a hurry just yet so I have time to shop.  I find I get better deals at salvage yards than I do on e-bay!  I know where a complete set up is now that is pretty reasonable and it includes a set of NOS rotors.  I need to know what I am buying first.

[Shakey]

I have a set of 4 pistons I was going to put on my 68 but I decided to Change out the disc from a 73 Charger instead.  If you want the 4 pistons I will be happy to sell them to you but honestly unless your going for the concourse resto I would pull a system from a 3rd gen and use those.  If you interested PM me.  I payed over $450 for them 2 years ago and would send them to you for $400 + shipping.

Why did you choose the 73 instead of the pricey '69's?  What makes the 3rd gen system better than the fourth/

Do your calipers look like the one in the photo below?

How does one easily identify the proper caliper?

Thanks in advance!

[41husk]

I went with the later model for performance and price.  I paid over $450 with shipping and looke all over for the pads when I found them they were $80 compared to $17.  Some of my Mechanic friends told me the 4 piston had problems with sticking and thats why they are not used now.  Like I said unless your going for the concourse car I would go with the cheaper 3rd gen set up.

[BrianShaughnessy]

That pic shows single piston slider calipers.      Definitely not the "correct" 4 piston setup but it's probably good enough.      The 4 pistons were probably swapped out like I said... I just didn't know you actually had disks  (my bad).    I've seen cars with drums up front more than once.

If you choose to do the factory 4 piston setup,  well...   guys with vettes used to send their old 4 pistons out to get stainless liners to help prevent the lockups.    Might be a good idea.

[moparjohn]

I'm going to swim against the tide .  I have the 4 piston calipers, they work great I have rebuilt the calipers myself and have a sorce for pads ($20.00 or so) The rotors will need replacement in time and they will be expensive ($200.00 each) I already have had the master cylnider  and booster rebuilt so thats a done deal (lifetime warranty) The calipers could have been built by Bendix or K/H
                                                                                                John

[Shakey]

I'm going to swim against the tide .  I have the 4 piston calipers, they work great I have rebuilt the calipers myself and have a sorce for pads ($20.00 or so) The rotors will need replacement in time and they will be expensive ($200.00 each) I already have had the master cylnider  and booster rebuilt so thats a done deal (lifetime warranty) The calipers could have been built by Bendix or K/H
                                                                                                John

John, how can you tell by looking at the caliper if it was a Bendix or Kelsey Hayes?  Were they both 4 psiton?  Will it make a difference what brake rotors you use?

Do you have any insight on the 2 piece rotors?  What is the story on those?

Thanks

[moparjohn]

Mine are Bendix and have the name cast into the caliper on the wheel side (outer) I belive they were both almost the same just 2 different suppliers. I only know of one rotor for it but others might fit?The two piece is listed in year one, expensive and 2-3 week for ship (they must order the through the manf. direct) and I know shipping will be high as well.

[69fuchs]

66-69 discs for b bodys were bendix 4 piston calipers.
The the early (small bolt pattern) a body discs were the kelsey hayes 4 piston calipers.

They are NOT the same caliper.

Both setups were known for having problems, some were used on amc, and ford products as well. 

The main complaints I have heard is leaky piston seals, and warped rotors.  I have one car with the bendix brakes, and the calipers are pitted in the piston bores. This can be fixed with stainless sleeves. 

A friend of mine just finished a restoration on a 69 hemi charger with bendix disc brakes, and he had to send the calipers in to be restored.  There are not many cores around.

The rotors are hard to come by, Mitchell motor parts is the only place I have seen them for sale in years-he may have bought out the goodmark inventory, that is the rumor.

[dodgecharger-fan]

So, is there a simple replacement for the 4-piston?
- or does it involve a complete conversion kit?

Everytime I see an ad, it's for a conversion from drums and when I ask if I can use the kit to upgrade and already front disc car, I get looked at sideways.

[dodgecharger-fan]

That pic shows single piston slider calipers.      Definitely not the "correct" 4 piston setup but it's probably good enough.      The 4 pistons were probably swapped out like I said... I just didn't know you actually had disks  (my bad).    I've seen cars with drums up front more than once.

If you choose to do the factory 4 piston setup,  well...   guys with vettes used to send their old 4 pistons out to get stainless liners to help prevent the lockups.    Might be a good idea.

So, it's safe to say that the spindles were changed as well, right?

I'm asking because I'm trying get my head around what can be done - besides going with the original 4-piston calipers.
Is there any other caliper that would work without changing out much else?

Thanks.

[Shakey]

That pic shows single piston slider calipers.      Definitely not the "correct" 4 piston setup but it's probably good enough.      The 4 pistons were probably swapped out like I said... I just didn't know you actually had disks  (my bad).    I've seen cars with drums up front more than once.

If you choose to do the factory 4 piston setup,  well...   guys with vettes used to send their old 4 pistons out to get stainless liners to help prevent the lockups.    Might be a good idea.

So, it's safe to say that the spindles were changed as well, right?

I'm asking because I'm trying get my head around what can be done - besides going with the original 4-piston calipers.
Is there any other caliper that would work without changing out much else?

Thanks.

I am still working on the rear end of my car.  Once I get to the front to rebuild the suspension I will clean up the spindles and look for a casting or part number.  I am not sure if they are original '69 Charger disc brake spindles or not.

Do you or anyone else here know where to look for a casting or part number on the spindles?

[resq302]

When I had my 69 disc spindles sand blasted, I don't remember seeing any casting numbers on them.  I could be wrong but I will double check the next time I am at my parents house.

[squeakfinder]

I have a set of 4 pistons I was going to put on my 68 but I decided to Change out the disc from a 73 Charger instead.  If you want the 4 pistons I will be happy to sell them to you but honestly unless your going for the concourse resto I would pull a system from a 3rd gen and use those.  If you interested PM me.  I payed over $450 for them 2 years ago and would send them to you for $400 + shipping.

Why did you choose the 73 instead of the pricey '69's?  What makes the 3rd gen system better than the fourth/

Do your calipers look like the one in the photo below?

How does one easily identify the proper caliper?

Thanks in advance!

I'm in the process of putting disc brake's on my 68 write now. I'm using a 75 Dart as a donor car. That set up you have looks to be the same. I'd call this an old school disc conversion, reason is those 73-75? a body disc brake set ups are getting hard to find.

[bull]

When I had my 69 disc spindles sand blasted, I don't remember seeing any casting numbers on them.  I could be wrong but I will double check the next time I am at my parents house.

I'm fairly sure they have part numbers because they were designated left and right, and that designation is part of the number IIRC.

I was under the impression that all '68 and '69 B-bodies with factory disc brakes came with the four piston calipers.

[is_it_EVER_done?]

Shakey:  What you have there are 4th gen, 11" disks. I see a few problems such as incorrect flex line routing (it should go down from the frame contact point, not straight out, which is dangerous from a possible failure standpoint), and the wear pattern on the rotor is bizarre in that it is wearing in the middle without much contact at the outer and inner edges? Also, the rotors are obviously warped since the wear pattern is not symmetrical. It's no wonder your not happy with your brake performance! Also, I'm assuming that the calipers are installed right as I cant see the bleeder screw (possible picture angle and resolution). Is it on the top?

Even if these problems did not exist, I doubt that you would be happier with the OEM Bendix 4 piston units. Do you already have the stock units/spindles? if not, I would suggest forgeting about them, and fix the setup you have.

Just for the sake of this discussion, the reason why the OEM iron 4 piston calipers are considered poor performers is that 1, They are iron with issues of poor castings, which makes them heavy, porous, and prone to rusting.  2, The brake fluid of the time was far more hygroscopic that it is today, and soaked up moisture like a sponge, which causes the pitting/seizing of individual pistons.  3, The rotors were two parts which essentially slows, or eliminates heat dissipation to the other parts, which causes the rotors to take the majority of the heat with resulting warping (which causes opposing piston calipers to grab/pulse instead of being able to absorb the constantly changing dimensions of the rotor.

The pitting/seizing issues can be solved with stainless liners and pistons, but you still have a slight differential in the expansion rates of stainless vs. iron components. And brake fluid, as well as seals are far better today than 40 years ago, so you don't have near the problem of moisture leaching. However the two part rotor (with the differing expansion rates) has never been addressed on early OEM systems, so the major inherent problem still exists.

The brake system you have now was developed to fix all these problems, and is going to be a better performing system than you can ever achieve from the stock "iron four piston" system. But you will need to fix your current problems.

Do you have 14 inch wheels? If not, you should upgrade to 12 inch rotors by buying rotors and the caliper adapters for them. If you want to keep your 11 inch system (which will still be better than an OEM system), you will need to have the rotors turned, and make sure that when you re-install them that you adjust the wheel bearings to zero play. I can't emphasize enough the importance of wheel bearing adjustment (to zero) on any disk system. Improper bearing adjustment can make even mega dollar brake systems perform below even a drum system!

As I have said a few times now (because it's essential), you need to address your brake line routing/rotor turning issues right away. Do that even if you plan on ultimately installing an OEM system because as it sits now, it's not only a poor performing system, it's genuinely dangerous.

[resq302]

Just for the sake of this discussion, the reason why the OEM iron 4 piston calipers are considered poor performers is that 1, They are iron with issues of poor castings, which makes them heavy, porous, and prone to rusting.  2, The brake fluid of the time was far more hygroscopic that it is today, and soaked up moisture like a sponge, which causes the pitting/seizing of individual pistons.  3, The rotors were two parts which essentially slows, or eliminates heat dissipation to the other parts, which causes the rotors to take the majority of the heat with resulting warping (which causes opposing piston calipers to grab/pulse instead of being able to absorb the constantly changing dimensions of the rotor.

The pitting/seizing issues can be solved with stainless liners and pistons, but you still have a slight differential in the expansion rates of stainless vs. iron components. And brake fluid, as well as seals are far better today than 40 years ago, so you don't have near the problem of moisture leaching. However the two part rotor (with the differing expansion rates) has never been addressed on early OEM systems, so the major inherent problem still exists.

Just  curious since I am restoring my car back to factory specs, if the brake fluid and rubber seals are superior today compared to yester-year, what would the problem be with using the 4 pistion Bendix calipers? 

Also, the repro rotors are now a one piece design which should help with the heat transfer disipation problem, no?

[is_it_EVER_done?]

If the replacement rotors are one piece, and you have restored calipers, you shouldn't have any problems at all.

[resq302]

SWEET!   

[Ghoste]

So you advocate rebuilding the original calipers with stainless sleeves as opposed to finding new ones out there someplace?

[is_it_EVER_done?]

Ghoste:  The problem I have always found to be universal with the OEM 4 piston calipers (Bendix, Kelsey-Hayes, Budd), is very poor casting quality, meaning very porous, and uneven density. Personally, I would never consider an OEM 4 piston setup regardless of new or rebuilt, but that's just me. If I WAS to use one, I would definitely go with a rebuilt (w/stainless liners) OEM 4 piston caliper over a NOS one (if NOS units even exists nowdays).

All you need to do is look at the SSBC systems that are available. They are also 4 piston units (iron on the base models), yet give excellent, trouble free performance. This shows that the OEM stuff was poorly manufactured, not inherently bad, and if one piece rotors are now available for the OEM system, it should (with rebuilt/re-lined calipers) perform just as well as the SSBC stuff if decent brake pads are available for the OEM calipers. Personally I am not a fan of any of the opposed piston systems (iron or aluminum) as I don't like the pedal pulsation that they give when driven hard (heated), but they still stop quite well.

Though this is off topic of your question and not directed at you, or anybody in particular, I have used, and/or adapted most (if not every) disk system available at one time or another, but I only use (4th gen) single piston sliding calipers w/phenolic pistons, HD 12 inch rotors, and tall (F,M,J type) spindles, on my own cars. However I probably drive my cars far more than anyone else, and beat the hell out of them frequently, and for performance street use I have found the stated set-up to be superior (due to experementation, not prejudice), However, even small drum systems can be suitable if your use/driving style and environment will safely allow it, BUT I believe that antique brakes should never be considered for high performance, or even general driving. In my opinion ancient brakes that have not been upgraded/maximized, and are only being used because they were "original" and are just as dangerous to others as driving drunk!

[Ghoste]

Well, I'm only considering oem because it's what my car came with.  Even at 200 bucks a pop for rotors and whatever it takes to get my calipers rebuilt, I'm many many dollars ahead of converting to a completely different setup.  Since the car doesn't get driven hard and frequently anymore it's a right choice in my case.

[resq302]

ghoste,

The parts for the 4 piston brakes are pretty expensive which is why most people switch to the single large piston slider type.  Rebuilt single piston sliders are relatively cheap and readily available.  The same goes for the same set up rotors.  The 4 piston calipers I have heard can cost like $200 a side to rebuild them and more if you get the stainless sleeves.  Your typical single piston slider type caliper (which I have on my charger now and converting back for originality purposes) can be got at most any auto parts store and might cost you $35 for a reman'd one. 

Granted, the later style single large piston slider caliper set up seems to be better not only in cost, but in performance also.  However, when originality counts........stock it is.

If you are not going for an original look (and chances are unless they know your specific car, they wont be able to tell) the later caliper set up should work fine.

Here is just a quick breakdown of what I had to pay for my set up to revert it back to stock:

Pair of 4 piston reman'd calipers -       $400
Pair of Rotors -                                $400
Machine cost to get hub cut down for
   calipers to clear repro rotors            $75
Brake Pads                                       $46
Bearings-Inner & Outer with seals        $65
Pair of Rubber flex brake line               $44
Used spindles and backing plates        $125
Steel brake line from caliper to
  flex brake hose                               $16
                                                 --------------
TOTAL                                          $1171

(getting your car back to factory specs....... PRICELESS)

Seriously though, if you are going back to the factory set up because of the cost factor, I would seriously weigh your options as the above price it cost me and what a later, better set up would be is basically the same, if not cheaper if you get it used.  Remember, the parts for the later set ups cost a lot less than what the original factory set up does.  With that being said, the repro rotors that I got (and from what I have heard is only available from one person now) had to be machined so the hub section would clear where the rotor mounts.  I have also heard, depending on the rim you are using, additional machining may be required on the snout part of the hub, however, with my stock magnum 500's, this extra machining was not needed.

Again, I am not trying to persuade you one way or the other but I just wanted to show you what you would be up against.  Oh, yeah, the 4 piston caliper set ups are also getting extremely hard to locate.

[Ghoste]

The four piston setup is already on my car though.  I am looking at the cost to replace rotors (the existing set are too thin to cut again) and calipers and pads.  I would get a rebuild kit for the existing rotors and do it myself and the rest of the brakes on my car are fairly new, so in my case, the cost factor goes in favor of the 4 piston.
Although if my intent were to keep the car forever or make a real driver out of it, I would likely switch over.