The Origins of the Daytona Charger Thread

[nascarxx29]

Another detail that involves the origins of the 69 500 and 69 daytona.Is the number of produced.Which is always in discussion.I have here this muscle car enthusiast magazine that did a overall coverage of the last unsold 69 daytona reported by Frank Badalson from Dressler motors in VA.They show a clear copy of the Manafactures Statement of Origin.For this 69 daytona motor vehicle from the factory .For a car that is yet to be titled in any state .Till its bought from the dealer .This one has never been sold or the MSO surrendered after 34 years or so .And has the XS in both places on it.and Not the XX.Which is a factory mistake. Or they used these XS29 numbers needed to fabricate numbers of cars they needed .By combining the XS and XX vins.Either scenario it causes a incorrect number amount discrepency for the cars to be accounted  by

[69_500]

Seems to be a lot of 500's and Daytona's with XS on the title, or insurance cards from the past and the such. Also a lot of 500's with XS in the fender tag, at least everyone I've seen built before November 14th anyways.

[chargervert]

That Charger 500 Hemi car,was one of the two magazine test cars,there was an automatic,and a four speed,both were red,with a white stripe,and black interiors. Chrysler,gave tthe test car to Cotton Owens,after it was stolen,and recovered,missing its drivetrain! Cotton used the car to test fit the Daytona nosecone for the racecars. When the car was restored,it was sold from Cottons shop,with no fenders,and no engine,and trans.I believe that the car was fitted with 70 fenders,and the original 69 fenders,were probably used on one of the 500 race cars!

[nascarxx29]

I got the road test of a red hemi 69 500 on VHS .That Bud Lindenman did on that automatic car.By some twist of fate it seems if this is accurate by the accounts reported .Both cars were hemi chargers the 68 to the #88 car and the other 69 hemi 500 that made the sacrifice .By being stolen.That paved the way for the daytona development

[nascarxx29]

While looking up on 434780 .I had this 2 page WW newsletter submitted daytona vin list by GG as of 11-89 .It has 468330 and 500564 as recorded daytonas.Also a friend of mine currently has one of the daytonas owned by a chrysler exec.It is a very well optioned out car.To believe it I had to get a copy of its buildsheet from him.Im also still looking for further info on the 287 daytona

[69_500]

Was the car that Cotton Owens had an AT car or a 4 speed? I was under the assumption it was a 4 speed, but I could be wrong. I haven't ever seen the car up close, and only saw a few photo's of it, I don't recall any showing the inside of the car.

If it is an automatic it would be interesting to see if it was the car in the Bud Lindenman Video, because I was always under the impression that car was stolen before it was off the dealership lot. Unless the dealership allowed the magazine to test drive it. I just had always figured it to be another car.

[chargervert]

I believe that the Cotton Owens 500,was the four speed car,and was stolen,and recovered without its engine,and trans! If I remember the story correctly,the car was given,to one of the journalists to test the next day,and was stolen,from the street in Detroit,where he had parked it the night before. The automatic car was tested for the Car,and Track show,and if I remember correctly, they called it the best Hemicar, they had tested to date!There wasn't much they didn't like about the car!There was some impressive footage of the car doing full blown four wheel drifts under hard acceleration! They were ahead of there time with the drifting!

[69_500]

Hmmmm, well I'm still trying to get some verification as to if the Cotton's car was an AT or a 4 speed. I remember it being in a magazine not too long ago, but can't seem to find it in my stack of magazines.

If it is a 4 speed, then I'm pretty sure that I know what car was the AT car they tested.

[Ghoste]

I'm pretty sure it was Mopar Action and you're right, it wasn't very long ago.  This summer just past?

[65post]

The Cotton Owens 500 - Power windows-6 way bucket seat and a 4-speed. MCG Feb 04.

[69_500]

Thanks for the post there 65. I'll try to dig up the magazine today.

[hemigeno]

OK, here's a slightly different twist I dug up today in a book written by an author whom I know has done a fair amount of research into the development of the Daytona.  Just because he's done a lot of research doesn't make it true, but here's what he says:

He (John Pointer, test engineer at the Chelsea Proving Grounds) used a Charger that had been raced by Bobby Isaac in the 1968 Firecracker 400, one of three Chargers that had been channeled 2 inches to lower the Charger's overall height.  Predictably, NASCAR frowned on such bodywork and the car never raced again.  The car was, in one sense, useless on the Grand National circuit, but it was a perfectly useable testbed, so Pointer chose this car as the development mule.  Work on the nose began in January 1969.  By the time of the Daytona 500 that year, Pointer had the first crude prototype completed, and he gave a Polaroid snapshot of the car to (Dale) Reeker before he took off to the Daytona race.
     "I sold it to Bob McCurry on the way back from Daytona where we got tromped by the Ford guys," Reeker said.  "It was a pretty crude-looking device, but if you got back far enough it was a pretty mean-looking automobile.  McCurry seized the thing as something he wanted to do."

Whether the author of this book got the drivers mixed up (you can see Al Unser's name above the door on the #6 car) or not, he does confirm that one of these modified and outlawed Chargers was used for developing the Daytona's nose.  It was probably used for testing the Charger500 modifications too, but that's just an educated guess based on the fact that the pictures from Cotton Owens shows the car having been fitted with Charger500 mods.  Al Unser only drove the #6 car for Cotton Owens at Riverside ('68) and the 1968 Daytona 500 (where he finished 4th, the highest-finishing Dodge).  It would not have been a '69 Charger500 at the time, but a '68 Charger entry.

I wonder if the lowered cars were outlawed after the '68 Daytona 500 rather than the July '68 Firecracker 400 - otherwise, why would Al Unser's name still be on a car that he never drove after that year's Daytona 500?  Interestingly enough, the next time Cotton's #6 car was entered in a race, it was at Richmond, (the second race after Daytona) with Charlie Glotzbach as the driver. They raced a '67 Charger that time...  Hmmm... Maybe their '68 Chargers were all lowered, and they didn't have time to get a new '68 Charger ready for the track so they went with the previous years' model??

At any rate, there's a pretty good chance the #6 Unser car (the one in the picture) was used as the Daytona (and I think, for the Charger500's too) mule/test car.  Definitely being used for testing by somebody.

I'm trying to round up even more documents, as I found a source who says he has a few documents related to this subject.  Hope to find out more real soon...

[3--Daytona]

Hemigeno;;;;A suggestion for Daytona facts;;;contact  Doug S,   of Daytona Superbird Club. He might be able to tell you what you want to know himself,(he is big race fan) If he cant answer your questions,, He could get you in touch with George Wallace. He is the man that Richard  Petty called a human computer,, he is also the guy who rode with  B, Baker at 200 MPH holding on to the roll bars reading instruments. He is a very nice, walking encyclopedia of the Daytona.
                                                                   3--Daytona

[hemigeno]

Jim,

Thanks for the heads-up.  I bug Doug quite regularly already, sent him two emails earlier this afternoon as a matter of fact.  I was hoping some folks like him and others who know about the development history will weigh in sooner or later.  While I already know a fair amount about the subject, there's always more to learn.  This "history" topic was also dragging down some other threads, so I thought we could start one to talk about the subject.

Do you think we could chip in and buy George Wallace a computer, so he could join in??   

I hope to meet Mr. Wallace sometime - Charlie Glotzbach said he was fearless, couldn't make him flinch, even being inches from the wall at Daytona...  Maybe I'll meet him at Talladega in '09, unless there's a big meet he attends between now and then.

[nascarxx29]

When they interviewed the former engineers.As both wing car club have done its recorded on VHS tape or in a newsletter.Maybe some of the questions we asked.Can find some answers in those archives

[69_500]

Interesting reading there Gene.

I was watching the interview with Charlie again today, and was listening to him talk about Wallace riding along with him. Sitting on the floor reading his gauges, and holding on to the roll bar. I don't know if I'd be that trusting of anyone else's driving.

[chargervert]

I read that Charlie went 243 MPH in the # 88 mule @ the Chrysler proving ground 5 mile track! that was the fastest speed I ever heard for a wingcar! The Daytona was also the first car to break 200 MPH in any form of organized racing!

[69_500]

That is what he said when we were at the Monster Mopar in St. Louis this year. I believe it was a shade under 243, but was within .20 or something of it. I believe they have that speed posted on the Winged Warriors site somewhere, maybe it is in the trivia section.

[hemigeno]

While looking up on 434780 .I had this 2 page WW newsletter submitted daytona vin list by GG as of 11-89 .It has 468330 and 500564 as recorded daytonas.Also a friend of mine currently has one of the daytonas owned by a chrysler exec.It is a very well optioned out car.To believe it I had to get a copy of its buildsheet from him.Im also still looking for further info on the 287 daytona

Dave,

I did some more thinking about those very-high VIN's you pointed out.  The most logical explanation for 500564 is that it was misread and/or misreported by someone.  There is already a XX29L9B400564, #479 on the Shipping List.  It would not be a hard thing at all for the first digit of the Sequential Production Number to be off.  400564 was already on the list from before, so it is/was a known car.  Someone probably saw the car at a show and just wrote down or remembered the VIN as 500564.  That's my best guess.  Maybe Chris or someone else can tell us if there were Hamtramck cars into the 500xxx's, but it always seemed really high to me.

I don't know about 468330 though.  Nothing jumps out at me as being a transcription error.  Strangely enough, I do not have a single Daytona in my spreadsheet with the number 3 in the fourth digit spot (xxx3xx)  ---  not a single car...

[nascarxx29]

Thats the list and numbers from 89 that are listed on it .I sent you.I can see a typo occuring.Ive written down and recorded cars .And trusted my memory when asked and have been close and one number off

[nascarxx29]

Hemi Geno here is the numbers from a old 70-s newsletter


[Auto 342] [4 speed 161] [Auto 440-4 375 HP 294] [4 Speed 440-4 375 HP 139] [Auto 426-8 425 HP 48] [4 Speed 426-8 425 HP 22] Giving a total of #503 though he have a serial number list with #501 car but the list has some errors as same car by vin at different dealers

[hemigeno]

Yep, seen all those totals before.

I still disagree with the total number of cars that everyone lists.  Unless there are VIN's out there that are not recorded on the Shipping List, I can only account for 499 cars. 

That total even includes Dale Reeker's 287970 car which is outside the normal Daytona production range.  I seriously wonder if that car even has A11 on its fender tag.  It may indeed have been converted into a Daytona by Creative, but it was built at Hamtramck after the C500 production stopped and before the Daytona was greenlighted as a 69 model year offering.  In other words, when Hamtramck built 287970 there wasn't an active Sales Code A11.  IMHO it's still a Daytona if Creative did the conversion, but I'll also bet the fender tag (and maybe the VIN?) says or did say XS29.  Of course, a Product Planner (top brass) like Mr. Reeker probably had the clout to have something re-tagged.  There's almost certainly a story with that 287970 car.

[69_500]

I'll have to go back and look, but I think I have a picture of that cars VIN and fender tag. Its not on my computer, but in a pile of old photo's my dad took back in the late 70's and early 80's. If I find it I'll post what I find.

[nascarxx29]

Ive heard it might be a SE but its suppose to be F6 green 4 speed car.From what Ive read

[69_500]

I hadn't ever heard of it being an SE, I believe that one of the first shipped Daytona's was reported as being an SE.