The Origins of the Daytona Charger Thread

[hemigeno]

Rather than cluttering up some other threads with this issue, maybe we can kick around some ideas and post some things that support and explain a little more about the 1969 Charger Daytona's origins and history.

[6pkrunner]

Going back pre-Charger 500 and such?

[hemigeno]

Whatever's of interest, and the Daytona certainly has a huge tie-in with the 69 C500.

 

[69_500]

Hmmm, the origins of the Daytona.

Well the nose cone was origionally tried and fitted to an existing C500. Which was Cotton Owens C500, which was also a car that was in California and was stolen off of the dealers lot new. Car then had the motor yanked, and body left in a parking lot. Body was then sold to Cotton Owens I believe, and then he loaned it back to Chrysler to test fit the nose cones to the Daytona's on. Then the car went back to cotton owens, who eventually sold it to another individual, who still owns the car and has it restored.

Is that what you were looking for? Something along those lines? Or were you more interested in the nascar history? Which I personally love the Daytona't but they weren't really necessary for Chrysler to be competitive in NASCAR. As the first race for the 500, it was the fastest car on the track that day but lost the race in the pits.

[hotrod98]

When you say that they fitted the nose to the 500, was it with the 69 fenders or the 70 fenders? I've always been a little hazy on the early attempts to install that nose. I vaguely remember there being a big problem at the very beginning of that whole conversion process. I was a stock car junkie back then and always bought every stock car magazine that I could get my hands on and I remember reading something about the conversion problems. I probably still have that magazine with that article somewhere in all of those boxes of magazines in the attic.

[69_500]

As far as the fenders go I'm not positive but I'm going to say it was 1970 fenders. I belive they realized the nose wouldn't mount up to a 69 fender from the mock ups they had tried before.

[nascarxx29]

I recall reading that a 69 hemi charger 500 from Ca That was stolen and found sitting on crates .In the watts section of CA.Was taken back and became the #88 dodge daytona research car.I still have that book and or magazine somewere I read that in

Fenco (Autozone)PN# M1475 (rebuilt) is for a 1970 B Body disc/drum power application with lines "inboard" (engine side) if that helps you?


NAPA also uses the 10-1475 part number for it's line of Truestop master cylinders, they are listed as "NEW"...again lines are inboard (engine side)

[69_500]

So you think the test fit car was the #88 car? Isn't the #88 car a known car now? I had heard that it was a stolen 500 also, but that the car was later recovered and sold to Cotton Owens. I believe there was an article about it in MCG last year.

[69Charger500]

The #88 car was found and is owned by a friend of mine from work.  I recall he mentioned it was stolen early in it's life, as seems to be the fate of many of the aero cars.  Mine was stolen 3 times from the original owner between '69 and '71; the third time, right from his driveway in the daytime...

[BigBlockSam]

 

[nascarxx29]

Greg K got the# 88 car from racer Don white

[Ghoste]

If you are talking about the origins of the Daytona, is it pertinent at this point in your thread to bring up the fastbacks?  I would argue they were Chryslers first NASCAR entries with an eye to aerodynamics and they never had to chance to be really battle tested.
1966 went to David Pearson but Ford sat out most of the year.  There was the business with the 1st gens lifting off at 180mph but even after they retrofitted the spoiler to the decklid, Pearson had his mind made up and hated the car.  Even though Chrysler promoted the Charger as Pearsons ride, am I not correct that most of his 66 season was won in a Coronet?
Sam McQuaig and Don White had better luck with the fastback I believe.
BTW, how many have seen the video of the guest speakers at the last Wing Car Reunion and Rathgeb (I think it was him, a while since I last watched it)was talking about spoiler testing with Don White?
They kept adding a little bit to the decklid of the fastback and he kept insisting it wasn't making any difference so they finally gave up and took it off.  When he came back in, he was madder than hell because they were trying to kill him.

[DC_1]

I found this to be an interesting read on some Nascar history and the 500s and Daytonas

Source is the TDC web site

**Inactive Link Removed**   PAGE 1

**Inactive Link Removed**   PAGE 2

**Inactive Link Removed**  PAGE 4

[69_500]

Ah so if you bring up 66 and 67 cars with a wing? anyone going to post a picture of the Charger that had a Daytona wing on it that was at quite a few shows a year or so ago?

The first generation Chargers were doing quite well on the track, the 68's with the sunk in grille and recessed rear window were the ones that demanded a modification. The 68's were fine on the smaller tracks and road courses, but not very fogiving on the superspeedways.

[Ghoste]

I took a lot of pics and video of that car.  I actually thought it was a very interesting exercise along the lines of soemthing they'd dream up at Dayclona.
I, of course, only meant the lip spoiler on the back of the 1st gen decklid.  There is a fairly small frontal area on those cars too in spite of it's massive appearance.  I'm not sure if it's a smaller window than the 2nd gen or not but that recessed grille more than made up for any styling gains based on area.  IIRC, the 66-67 frontal area is around 21 sq.ft.

[69_500]

Yeah I knew what you meant, I was only stretching.

I think that if Ford hadn't come out with the Talladega, or mercury with the Cyclone Spoiler II then we would never have seen a Daytona. Because the 500 would have pretty much dominated the other cars on the superspeedways. However it was a pretty neck and neck between those 3 cars, the Daytona was just the icing on the cake.

I for one am glad they built them because to me the Daytona is still the most beautiful car ever produced.

[BigBlockSam]

Daytona is still the most beautiful car ever produced 

  and the superbird

[73rallye440magnum]

I read that originally they were testing with a 9 inch nose cone, but then eventually changed that to 18. The rear wing was originally quite a bit shorter but due to the deck lid needing to be openable (is that a word?) on the street versions they made it higher to what it is today, which ended up adding quite a bit more downforce at high speeds, kind of like the tail on an airplane. The vents on top of the fenders were added because the tires rubbed the fenders at high speeds. I think the first time they tested one at the Chrysler proving grounds in michigan it ran 249mph.

[69_500]

As far as the rear spoiler is concerned, I believe it was stated that they could have produced just as much downforce if the spoiler was only 6 inches tall, but there wouldn't be any way to open the trunk then. So they raised it to allow access to the trunk.

The whole scoops on the front fenders has always baffled me. Heard stories from years ago about how some believed them to be there to allow the brakes to cool off on the track. Heard others about how they were there for tire clearance. Now on the race versions I think they might have achieved both, but then someone needs to explain why even the street  versions have a hole in the top of the feder under the scoop with a mesh over it? What is its purpose? Can't be for tire clearance as the hole is covered by steel mesh, and the hole isn't as big as the scopp. So if it isn't for tire clearance, then why even cut a hole in a street version?


I have a video interview with Charlie Glotzbach that I offer on DVD where we discusses going 243 mph at the 5 mile oval in Michigan in a Daytona when they were testing it.

[hemigeno]

The reason the hole is there on the street version is the very fact that they needed/wanted it on the race version.  Chrysler was afraid that if they put the scoop on the street car with no hole, NASCAR wouldn't allow them to have the cutout on the race version.  So, they put that little hole (about 4" diameter, if I remember right) and screen on the street cars whereas the race cars had almost the whole area beneath the scoop cut out.  If you look at a Daytona at a carshow sometime and see a sponge stuffed in each scoop, they're trying to keep rocks and crud from flying up out of the wheelwell onto the fender.  Chrysler got a little more brave on the Superbird, and took the chance that NASCAR wouldn't say anything about the lack of a hole on the street cars, so the 'Bird's fenders have no holes (maybe too many street Daytona owners complained??)

I don't know if I buy Chrysler's rationale about tire clearance.  It's possible that's the case, but why didn't they just put a bump in the fender?  It would have allowed the same tire movement.  I personally think there's a tie-in with the evacuation of air from the wheelwell that allows the front end of the car to be lower to the track.  The official "corporate" explanation is tire clearance though.

[moparguy01]

i read the same thing about them finding the spoiler was the same at 6inches high or 3 feet high, so they asked the high ups and he opened the truck and said right there.

thats what i had read, but that was along time ago and i cant remember where it was.

[hemigeno]

I found this discussion/webpage from Aerowarriors.com (credit goes to Ken Noffsinger) a few years ago:

The Scoop on The Scoops

[nascarxx29]

Will look and see what I have to share .I do have that SAE engineer book on the daytona and racing programs and stacks of racing press pictures .From the me who raced daytona press kit.etc.As earlier mentioned the rear spoiler was effective at cetain levels.But was raised to raise trunk to wing clearance.a certain racer had doubted the tall daytona spoiler effectiveness.And either took it off or flipped the center around .And his backend got air born at speed.I thought the scoops and holes on the fenders bleed out air going under the car.That made it handle better at high speeds

[nascarxx29]

This#88 daytona has early wingcars origins history.The number #88 research daytona .And its origins .Are The early history of the machine is a fascinition as its speed.Originally the car was a (68 charger).Said by Frank Wylie retired director of public relations for dodge division.He states we loaned that car to a magazine in los angeles for testing.It was stolen striipped of everything.and the car was found in the Watts section of LA.That car was taken back to Nichels engineering in Highland IN and converted into what is known as the prototype dodge daytona .The other car that 69 500 mentioned was the cotton owens car that was first to be fitted with the wingcar body parts.It was not this car.But the other one of Cotton Owens.And also 69 500 Brian Hargrove owned your dads 69 hemi vinyl top 500 in Aug 1976 .Before Pete H

[69_500]

So it was a 68 Charger that was converted huh? News to me.

thanks for the update.