TERRIBLE OIL FAILURE ( WE GOT A WINNER!!! ) becomed on pushrod lenght discussion

[mhinders]

At this moment I'm fighting to keep the engine running, but it looks the carburetor is really out of adjustment... I'm toward to incorrect or damaged O rings ( TQ ) allong with too much height on floats... look my other thread about pinging.

Your engine seems to be very lean, and usually a higher float level should give a somewhat richer mixture.  I don't know the TQ though, maybe that one is different.
On my Holley I was experimenting a little with the float levels but I couldn't really see much difference (having no lambda sensor at the time).

But I agree with the others, trying to find the reason for the popped lifter should be your top prio right now. You could eventually find the reason without having the engine running. Think about what you have done to the valves, rockers and lifters.

[Nacho-RT74]

actually found the new fail... two pushrods bent... same side of engine, but diff ones than the one what just jumped out.

This is amazing! It was an instant reaction... reassembly, crank it and bend them. And I thought it was the carb.

true is that when I reassemblied after relocate the jumping lifter and pushrod, I tighten the adjusters 1/2 of turn just "trying to prevent" a new jump... well, didn't work and in fact it was worst.

replaced the bent pushrods, got back the given 1/2 turn and its iddling again, nicelly and quiet ( as far the new cam and mufflers allows LOL )

carb with the mods I made now needs some tune but thats another story.

YEEES I KNOOOOW, I have to figure out what is happening, BUT at this moment I have no clue

[FLG]

Nacho what was done with the heads? I wouldnt call it good until you figure out why the pushrods bent...assuming they werent bent before assembly?

Might have a valve or two sticking.

[Nacho-RT74]

heads are NOS unmilled... just ported and bigger SS valves. Being NOS of course guides are perfect.

Block has been deck ( badly decked but still decked ), but IN TOTAL, not more than 0.015 or 20. Pistons are at 0 or close to 0 deck. If we think, pistons were made to be on an undecked block 0.020 below the deck, thats what I assume the totall amount of the cut.

Composite gasket. If they were assemblied from factory with metal headgaskets, the 0.020 cut is back with the composite gaskets

Of course weren't bent when I reassemblied

Valves sticking... we thought on that ( a mechanic friend of mine and me ) but then, how is than a 4K RPMs as I have got max my engine has been working perfect ?

[FLG]

How about the springs are they binding?

[Charger-Bodie]

My Dad had a 440 that did this . He ended up replacing all the lifters and the pushrods and to my disbelif it cured it. I thought for sure it would have turned out to be a valve sticking or something.

[Nacho-RT74]

How about the springs are they binding?

Hughes 1106 binding with just 480/501 lift ? I don't think so. They are rated to bind at 680 lift

BTW They are advertised like 150 lbs at installed height. I tested some af they look to be more into the 110-120 rate. Maybe because I bought them with 4K miles on them at Carlisle 2008

[frederick]

What's the piston to valve clearance?

[71green go]

Nacho...you also mentioned in another thread that you reused the stock length pusrods...hoping the hydraulic valve lifters would make up the difference
Possible pushrods are just to long??

[Nacho-RT74]

stock pushrods in fact. The only change on stock geometry and parts are the PRW rockers, what could have some small height diff with stock rockers, but thinking on that, when I put them side by side ( PRW and stock )  I couldn't notice any major diff. If some, really pretty small

[justcruisin]

I used the PRW stainless rockers on my 440 rebuild. I had the block decked 0.025" and are using eddy heads, the factory push rods were too long, I used 9.200" 3/8 pushrods but in saying that PRW have changed the rocker slightly which allows for a longer push rod. Not sure which one you have, I suspect the newer version would allow for stock length push rods but that would depend on your deck height.

[Nacho-RT74]

ok, which AFFORDABLE round/round pushrods can I get to my car, shorter than the stocks ? I think will be better to change that, being the adjusters are fully threated out, and still in that way I have more preload than It should.

in fact, whats the stock lenght ? LOL

[FLG]

Nacho,

8.57 if im not mistaken

Smith brothers makes em, there quite affordable...ive got a set that im gonna get rid of but there for a 440 not 400 so are too long for your application.

[heyoldguy]

ok, which AFFORDABLE round/round pushrods can I get to my car, shorter than the stocks ? I think will be better to change that, being the adjusters are fully threated out, and still in that way I have more preload than It should.

in fact, whats the stock lenght ? LOL

Smith Brothers are great pushrods, BUT, you have a large selection of 5/16 or 3/8 pushrods with 5/16 ball ends available at Summit Racing for $45-$100 for a set of 16. First find out what length that you need! Even if you have to cut some old ones and tape them back together until you get the correct length.

[Nacho-RT74]

welll, being I have adjusters I think I can get an aprox measurement, no need to be AN EXACT one...

UNLESS there is some diff or performance advantage getting them at some specific measurement ?

I think not too short to keep adjuster not too much theated in. That would make a stronger assembly with more load supported by the rocker than the adjuster... don't ?

[firefighter3931]

welll, being I have adjusters I think I can get an aprox measurement, no need to be AN EXACT one...

UNLESS there is some diff or performance advantage getting them at some specific measurement ?

I think not too short to keep adjuster not too much theated in. That would make a stronger assembly with more load supported by the rocker than the adjuster... don't ?

There is a definate advantage to having the correct pushrod length....it's called proper geometry 

If too much adjuster threads are showing on the underside of the rocker you will have problems ! Oiling/lubrication, broken adjuster screws, bent pushrods. The valvetrain is under tremendous load so everything has to be right or you will have problems. 

It might be worthwhile posting a pic of your rocker arm setup installed in the car so we can see what you're dealing with. 


Ron

[Nacho-RT74]

It might be worthwhile posting a pic of your rocker arm setup installed in the car so we can see what you're dealing with. 


Ron

YES SR! ( LOL )



just right before get into the engine bay

[Nacho-RT74]

will that help or do you need them how they show RIGHT NOW ?

[BSB67]

will that help or do you need them how they show RIGHT NOW ?

Pictures of current conditions would help us see if there is something obvious.

Couple of comments:
1) Make sure you have adequate side clearance on the rockers.  I would not want any less than 0.010"  Too tight will hinder oil flow.  For the rocker where the PR fell out, check to see if any part of the rocker body is changing color i.e. turning blue from too much heat.  That will cause it too lock on the shaft.

2) I believe that those rocker push rod cups oil through the body of the rocker.  There is a small groove on the adjuster that needs to line up with the oil feed hole in the rocker body, so having the correct push rod length is very important.  If the PR is too short, it might physically work, but the PR cup wont get oil

[firefighter3931]

will that help or do you need them how they show RIGHT NOW ?

Pictures of current conditions would help us see if there is something obvious.

Couple of comments:
1) Make sure you have adequate side clearance on the rockers.  I would not want any less than 0.010"  Too tight will hinder oil flow.  For the rocker where the PR fell out, check to see if any part of the rocker body is changing color i.e. turning blue from too much heat.  That will cause it too lock on the shaft.

2) I believe that those rocker push rod cups oil through the body of the rocker.  There is a small groove on the adjuster that needs to line up with the oil feed hole in the rocker body, so having the correct push rod length is very important.  If the PR is too short, it might physically work, but the PR cup wont get oil

Just to add to the recommendations from above : Try and take a pic from the front of the head....we would like to see the underside of the rocker arm with the pushrod installed.



Ron

[Nacho-RT74]

ok... will try today.

Rockers move freelly but with smaller clearence that you mentioned between them. I assembled them in fact side by side. Oil goes inside the rocker on a groove bewteen shaft bushings, then gets the top part and goes outside through a hole on rocker. I don't remember have seen any kind of access of the oil to the adjuster

[BSB67]

ok... will try today.

Rockers move freelly but with smaller clearence that you mentioned between them. I assembled them in fact side by side. Oil goes inside the rocker on a groove bewteen shaft bushings, then gets the top part and goes outside through a hole on rocker. I don't remember have seen any kind of access of the oil to the adjuster

Of course they will move freely at ambient temperatures. 

Exactly what side clearance are you setting the rockers up at? You said " I assembled them in fact side by side."  Does this mean close to zero clearance?  This could very well be the problem.  Expansion alone could cause them to lock up.

Also depending on the details of the rocker and shaft design, if there is no side clearance, the oil will go directly from the oil hole in the bottom of the shaft directly to the oil hole at the top of the rocker, short circuiting the lubrication of the rocker/shaft.  Some of the oil needs to flow across the rocker and out the side clearance.

[Nacho-RT74]

I never mesured the clearence on sides for these but I could say maybe yes, close to zero clearence, maybe just couple of cents... need to note, the fails have been with engine still cold.

The bents rod happened when cranking after 2 days without even being cranked.

OK, these are the pics I took... sorry is the best I could do without dissasemble more. Compressor is in the middle. I removed driver side because it is the easier.

Last pic is from firewall

[John_Kunkel]

Pushrods are too long.

[Scaregrabber]

Basic question but I just have to ask. Did you set the valves and if so how did you set them? It looks like there is a possibility the valves were set when the lifters were "up" on the lobe.

Sheldon