help roof question?

[deanj309]

How difficult is it to replace roof structure.I would post a pic but can't load it.the pics are on my phone.mt roof structure from the speaker shelf support to the windshield is rotten it also need a new roof and roof structure. I have a doner roof from another car but the issue I'm having is......the car is at a body shop getting ready to have the work done.and the shop has never worked on any mopars (chevys only)-ell I stoped in the body shop to see how it was going and the body guy started telling me the process in witch he was going to replace the roof.....sooooo he wanted to cut the roof of at the bottom of the sail panelwere it meets the rear quarter and not at the factory seem and I told him not to but to remove it at the factory seem and he said well I figured id just do it my way and I said well that's fine if you want to ruin the car...am I wrong...I'm not a bodyman thou I'm doing most of the work minus roof but even I know it need to be removed at the seam of the roof .there is no reason to cut it at the place he wants to cut it at  .the work it needs is drivers side roof structure and rearwindow channel is shot and roof skin. ..not confident in the shop doing it anymore....opinions...welcome

[maxwellwedge]

If you aren't comfortable with the shop - yank it out today.

[Dino]

Agreed, if you don't feel comfortable, get your car outta there.

Did he tell you why he wanted to cut it lower?  If he cuts on the original seam will he be cutting into a rotten window channel?  He may just want to cut down to strong material but ultimately you need to feel good about what he's doing.  I can tell you that regardless of battle plan, he should tackle the original and vey poorly done seam no matter what.

Oh and no, it is not difficult to replace roof structure as long as you follow a few simple rules.  Just about as easy as replacing a floor pan.

[lexxman]

Agreed, if you don't feel comfortable, get your car outta there.

Did he tell you why he wanted to cut it lower?  If he cuts on the original seam will he be cutting into a rotten window channel?  He may just want to cut down to strong material but ultimately you need to feel good about what he's doing.  I can tell you that regardless of battle plan, he should tackle the original and vey poorly done seam no matter what.

Oh and no, it is not difficult to replace roof structure as long as you follow a few simple rules.  Just about as easy as replacing a floor pan.

[deanj309]

Dino what are the rules in replaceing the roof and structure?the the part he wants to cut into is sound norust.the bad is roof skin, rear window channel upper and lowerand driver side roof structure from speaker shelf support to windshield.no reason to go that far down,he said hefigured it was a good place to do it .I replaced the full floor and full trunk pan,trunk extentions .what do I need to do to do the roof.I'm all ears thx!and would rather keep my 3 grand

[Dino]

First of all, how much of the actual structure would you like to swap?  Just the entire driver's side or the entire thing?  A partial swap will always be easier since you retain many more points of reference.

The rules are simple. 
-Focus on getting the structure where it should be, the skin will fall into place perfectly as long as the frame is where it belongs. 
-Make sure the seam on the roof skin is not in the same location as the to be welded seam of the frame, that'll make it harder to make a nice weld on the frame.  When you cut the roof skin on the original seam, try to cut the frame a few inches higher.  When you weld the new frame in, you won't have to deal with the roof skin being too close to do a clean job.  You need space to make a nice clean weld.
-When cutting away frame above a window, you lose all points of reference.  You can imagine that if the new frame is not exactly where it belongs, you're going to get one heck of a headache when you find out your windshield, rear, or side windows no longer fit.   
-Key to this all is planning and taking a ton of measurements.  You know the saying, measure twice, cut once.  Make it your mantra.

First order of business is removing the roof skin but leaving the entire frame where it is.  Since nothing structural moves it's pretty straightforward.  how you remove the skin depends on what will happen to the frame.  If the entire structure is going bye bye then don't waste time drilling out the spot welds on the roof skin, simply cut the roof right next to the pinch welds.  Actually that's how I always remove metal, just cut around the welds, cleanup the last bits later, much easier.  DO NOT CUT SKIN AND FRAME AWAY AT THE SAME TIME!!!!!

When you remove structure that makes up part of a window opening you cannot simply rely on the 'landmarks' in the metal to line up perfectly, they may not.  These cars had pretty loose tolerances.  Make yourself a simple jig out of metal or wood even that fits perfectly inside the opening.  Not loose, not tight.  When you put your new structure on you can use the jig as a guide to make sure the opening is spot on.

If you have the space, a few cutters, clamps and a welder, you can do this yourself.  With every step you take you can snap some pictures and post them here and we'll help you finish this project.

Again, your goal is to get the new frame in place, the skin is just a skin, it'll slide in place without any hassle as long as the foundation is right.

One last thing.  If you end up cutting away the entire roof structure you risk bending the car, do not rely on closed doors to keep it all in place, they won't.  Before cutting away structure you need to put other in place.  Crossnbars connecting A and B pillars are a start but please comeback here to ask for advice when you're going that route.  Once the car bends, your wallet will be the sole property of the local chassis shop.

Do it right and do it once and do not rush.

[AirborneSilva]

As usual great knowledgeable explanation - thanks Dino   

[deanj309]

Hello.well to start the entire car has been striped. It is a rolling shell no doors,hood fender trunk lid ect. My question is...what would be the other route if the entire foof and structure was removed,what kind of bracing setup do I need to do.....because the shop is now talking about taking at the seam but taking it of in one chunk, but they were not talking about bracing it. I would like to know how this other process is done so I can go into the shop with a good understanding what they are trying to do or what they are not doing .thx for all the help

[Dino]

Hello.well to start the entire car has been striped. It is a rolling shell no doors,hood fender trunk lid ect. My question is...what would be the other route if the entire foof and structure was removed,what kind of bracing setup do I need to do.....because the shop is now talking about taking at the seam but taking it of in one chunk, but they were not talking about bracing it. I would like to know how this other process is done so I can go into the shop with a good understanding what they are trying to do or what they are not doing .thx for all the help

Please ask your bodyman to write up a gameplan so you know exactly how this job will be done.  He won't liek it, but he doesn't have to, you are the boss.

I am hoping that he wasn't clear because if he chops off the roof in one go, that's setting yourself up for possible failure.  I'm not saying it can't be done but it's like trying to paint the engine bay after you drop the engine in, it just doesn't make a whole lot of sense.

Not bracing is a serious matter, there is no way that car won't flex once they cut the structure off, period.  If your bodyman thinks that would be a good way to proceed then please take the following to heart:  GET YOUR CAR OUTTA THERE ASAP.  No joke.

The bracing you need is like any other bracing such as that you find in a house.  You find the point loads off the car, ie where much pressure is generated.  These are first and foremost the weakest links in the chassis, one of them is right in front of the b pillar.  If the roof structure gets removed and you try to put your doors back in, you will find that the door opening is now too small to fit  the door, it will hit the rear quarter.  First brace you pt in connects the A pillar to the B pillar.  One tsraight tube may be enough but two is better.  Use thich metal stock, round or square, doesn't matter as long as it is properly welded to the structure, no small tack welds here.  Let me repeat that, weld to the structure, the thickest, beefiest parts you can weld to.  If you weld to the thinner sheet metal it may move. Also connect ds A pillar to ps A pillar, same with B pillar OR criss cross ds A to ps B and ds B to ps A.  Whatever you do, you end up with the pullars connected to each other, you now have a strong structre and can proceed to remove the roof structure.  No need to do anything to the enngine compartment.  As far as the back of the car goes, you could weld a bar between the remainders of the inner sail panels but honestly, as long as the car is sitting on a firm base, it should hold up just fine.  On a spinning rotisserie you get all sorts of added stress in places you don't want it.  IT's better to have the shell sit on lots of jack stands or better yet a big boddy cart.  The more you divide the weight the better.

Google around for bracing, I'm sure you'll find tons of pictures.  Seriously, for a bodyman this is what?  a half hour job, if that?  He's a fool if he thinks he can simply cut off the roof and hope to end up with a straight car. 

It's your ride, you have the last word, always.  If you don't feel he'll do the job right then get your car out as soon as you can.  If you have some experience with tools and don't have two left hands then you can do this, we will help.  If not then find yourself someone who can do the job for you.

[deanj309]

Dino thx for all the help I will keep you and everyone posted on what happens on Monday thx!

[deanj309]

Dino.I can't load pics on the site because they are on my phone and I tride to resize it but also would not work.would it be to much to ask if I could email one to you and you could respond back here on the post what you think should happen to the car thx!

[Dino]

Dino.I can't load pics on the site because they are on my phone and I tride to resize it but also would not work.would it be to much to ask if I could email one to you and you could respond back here on the post what you think should happen to the car thx!

I'm on dialup so it would have to be pretty small.  Likely as small as what's needed to post here. 

Feel free to send me the pics but it may have to wait until tomorrow so I can open them at work where I have broadband.