Daytona Assy ?

[TONY]

according to factory equipment and modification bulletin it mentions (#12) to repaint around the rear glass area

but as far as the front end components, painting isnt mentioned

were the fenders, hood and nose prepainted then installed as per the instructions?

of course we know many car got painted due to the poor paint matches so painting the whole car to match was not uncommon

but if what im surmising from the factory buletin is correct, doesnt that mean some cars could have been left with the repainted area around the rear glass, and a prepainted assembled fender/hood/nose assembly installed and delievered as such?

are there any documented known as left the dealer paint cars?

[hemi68charger]

I would think that since it mentions "surfaces", as in plural, it would account for all new sheetmetal; plug, fenders, scoops, hood, valance, etc...

From all the original Daytonas I've seen, there's been some instances of overspray. Soooooooo, my conclusion is all panels were not painted prior to arrival to Creative. Now, at Creative, there could have been a stock-pile of various painted panels....

Just my thoughts..........
T

[TONY]

thanks for replying

on the original daytonas youve seen, where did they exhibit overspray?

and i know the bulletin mentions "surfaces" but the bulletin is in order of jobs, and the painting order takes price prior to the front end sheetmetal being installed

one of the things im asking is,
were the fenders, hood and noses painted prior to assembly as the bulletin doesnt mention painting  AFTER the fenders/hood/nose is on the car?

[Aero426]

were the fenders, hood and noses painted prior to assembly as the bulletin doesnt mention painting  AFTER the fenders/hood/nose is on the car?

No.   Even though the checklist doesn't call it out, I don't see them painting complete panels off the car.

This was a slam the parts on and get them out the door operation.   Since the front clip needed paint, it would be installed on the car then painted and blended (if needed) with the rest of the body, just like the window plug.

Panel painting prior to installation would not eliminate the need to blend and you have the possibility of damaging paint on the install.  

I am not clear on if they did any jambing or cut in on the back side while off the car.    Good question.  

[TONY]

Doug

im not disagreeing, as i felt the front end was painted after installation,

i was going by the bulletin that doesnt mention paint after the rear glass area

was there a update to that bulletin stating the variance oroversight of the front end paint?

[Aero426]

Sorry for the short answer.  I added to my first reply.  

We tend to read into these documents looking for answers.    Look at it if you were presented with the problem.   What is the cost effective and quick way to get the job done with the skilled labor (or lack thereof) available?      The guys working on the cars probably laughed at the check list.   

[maxwellwedge]

They were painted with lacquer at Creative.

There is a pic of one at creative with the plug installed and not painted yet. The headlights were masked and original cars have paint on the headlight rings. The engine wiring harness by the bulkhead often got overspray as well as the horns, washer bottle etc.

The k-frame, sway bar and a bunch of other stuff show a bunch of overspray as well.


Here is a pic

[TONY]

Jim

for sure many were painted and had varying degrees of overspray under the hood area,

but im wondering are there any that didnt?

and the headlights could have been installed when the nose assembly was painted, but that doesnt mean that the nose was on the car

and the car that didnt have the window plug area painted yet, may just not have gotten to that point yet, that doesnt confirm or not if the nose was changed prior to or after the rear plug area was painted

im not arguing or really disagreeing with anyone,

im just playing devils advocate and looking for more of a concrete confirmed answer instead of probablies, could ofs and most likelys

thanks again

[UFO]

There must be some of Creative Ind. employees still around that remember how things were done.
Anyone try to track some of them down?

[maxwellwedge]

Happy New Years Tony.

Plenty of original examples with paint on the nose to body seal.

Have some pics somewhere.......

[nascarxx29]

There must be some of Creative Ind. employees still around that remember how things were done.
Anyone try to track some of them down?

I have tryed to track down past wingcar factory workers but no luck.I have  found people that worked for Chrysler went to drag strips .And recorded vins to void them from warranty on repair claims.And found a guy who distributed 69 daytonas to NJ and PA zone.I gave the name and PH# to the wingcar clubs.For a person to interview..The only near factory worker connection was my find on Hacketts Brass a creative Ind sub contractor
http://wwnboa.org/motw.htm

My original unrestored daytona had overspray paint on the headlight trim rings and on the adjustment screw.They masked off the headlights but overspray got on there and other places and underhood washer bottle etc.Another detail I found on my car many not seen or heard was the headlights doors had engraved SAE XX29 into the white plastic.Dave Patik studied my cars and many others and compiled his info into a restoration manual.But random workmanship dicates why one cars in unique to another.On another note they are still worker that had a connection to the aero cars .But havent found as this guy from Dallas

[Aero426]

That is Brent and Sherri's car being talked about in that old newsletter.   What date is it?

Both Ron and Bob McDaniel were at the Cotton Owens reunion in 2006.  

[moparstuart]

That is Brent and Sherri's car being talked about in that old newsletter.   What date is it?

Both Ron and Bob McDaniel were at the Cotton Owens reunion in 2006.  

I almost had that car bought a few month before brent and sherri aquired it  . Ernie Pyle the owner of the car also told me the car was previously owned by Cotton .   

[hemigeno]

Hey Tony      How's Mike coming along on the 'Tona?  I'm sure it'll be a fantastic car and I can't wait to see it this summer.

Line Item #25 from the instruction list you posted indicates the side marker reflectors were to be installed after finish paint, and the reflector task is listed after the front clip and nose components had been installed on the car.  I'd think that's a fairly decent indication of the engineers' intent, as there is no other reason to mention finish paint if the front components were to be painted prior to installation.  More importantly, the empirical evidence supports everything being painted in place.  All the original cars I've seen had overspray on seals which were fastened to both the nosecone and fenders... some more than others of course. 

In this case it's impossible to prove a negative hypothesis (i.e. that something didn't ever happen), but it'd be a bit of a stretch for me to buy into paint-then-install.  Then again, my opinion isn't worth any more than another person's.

[Mopurr]

So if you are looking for Ron McDaniel, he didn't work at Creative......his dad worked for Chrysler and he did to, at retirement he was in was in management/offices to put it simply or as much as you need to know pertaining to this.

Yes our car, yes I have talked to Ron and Dr. Wright.....(didn't know he was a Dr.....did you....) why in the world our car comes up in this thread?

Ron discussed nothing about cars at creative......so if he drove them there?, wasn't in the shop working on them.....

And once again......Cotton DID NOT own the car, I have talked to him about it, it is one of those things that gets jumbled up through the years.

More to the story yes, and no not discussing today!

[TONY]

hi Geno

its coming along, itll be done this spring for sure,

good point in ref to item #25,
but i initially assumed that the paint it was refering to was the rear area of the car,
its hard to figure as its not specific,
and also no mention of paint past item #12,
but what your saying makes sense too

and im not saying that the painted before installation of the front end happened, just looking for concrete that it didnt

i agree that all of the original cars ive looked at have had some degree of overspray, but ive seen some with very litte, and others with gobs

Malcoms orange daytona is doesnt show much underhood overspray at all, while all of the seals underneath do.

if the fenders werent painted at all on the outside prior to installation, then the upper portion of the inner fenderwells and everything mounted on them  would have tremendous amounts of overspray on them, and malcoms car doesnt exhibit that.
the rear data tag screw doesnt have paint on it, neither does the washer bottle, the bump stop rubbers on the fender, the vacum hoses, etc

which leads me to ask, were there masks that were supposed to be used to protect underhood areas while the new front sheetmetal was being painted?

and Geno, your opinion is definately valuable to me.
thank you

[nascarxx29]

So if you are looking for Ron McDaniel, he didn't work at Creative......his dad worked for Chrysler and he did to, at retirement he was in was in management/offices to put it simply or as much as you need to know pertaining to this.

Yes our car, yes I have talked to Ron and Dr. Wright.....(didn't know he was a Dr.....did you....) why in the world our car comes up in this thread?

Ron discussed nothing about cars at creative......so if he drove them there?, wasn't in the shop working on them.....

And once again......Cotton DID NOT own the car, I have talked to him about it, it is one of those things that gets jumbled up through the years.

More to the story yes, and no not discussing today!

why in the world our car comes up in this thread????As you know I reunited the XX29L9B356510 original buildsheet to its car.I was looking into the 732 car to see if it had the sheet for it or someone elses .And looked in a old newsletter and seen the Mc Daniel wing car employee connection.Im always on the look out for Chrysler /Creative personel for the wingcar club to contact

[Mopurr]

Then why not start a new thread instead of putting it in the middle of something else?

I had an email that you were putting info up on our car and I had to hunt to find it.......because it was not in it's own thread


And yes I know you got the build sheet back because I was the connection that put the owner in contact with you.

[Aero426]

which leads me to ask, were there masks that were supposed to be used to protect underhood areas while the new front sheetmetal was being painted?

They had to have some kind of provision for masks or even blankets to cover things up.   There was some discussion offline yesterday about the Malcom car and that the bottom side of the hood has erratic paint coverage, consistent with being sprayed while on the car.      No, I don't have concrete proof, but common sense tells me this is how it was done.

The checklist indicates a plan for how the cars were to be converted.   And then there was reality with how things were actually done in the shop from worker to worker.   We see those little variations from car to car.    I see this as a lot like the battery cable thread on Moparts.    I don't think there is one right answer for every detail.   

[nascarxx29]

Then why not start a new thread instead of putting it in the middle of something else?

I had an email that you were putting info up on our car and I had to hunt to find it.......because it was not in it's own thread


And yes



I know you got the build sheet back because I was the connection that put the owner in contact with you.

Great collaberate effort on both our parts never heard if he got it actually in his hands.I knew who had since the 509 daytona changed hands twice

I still have the name and number in my files from a Chrysler zone rep who distributed 69 daytonas to NJ and PA dealers

[nascarxx29]

Then theres stuff like this Creative Industries quality control paper. That as I say random workmanship.Each car is unique and its individual details #car 149 is shown with no air foil air scoops finish needing rub out .Over spray on seals and hood and on glass etc etc

[TONY]

Dave
please lets keep this on topic, so it stays educational in ref to daytonas assy process

Doug
a friend of mine has a couple of and has restored and researched 289 and 427 cobras in depth

and from listening to him, when cars are "hand built" off of a regular assembly line there are going to be many differences and variables, and i understand when the "human hands" factor comes into play its very hard to document except for original examples due to the "game plan" not being in concrete and possibly have been modified during the production run

like i said prior, im not saying anything is incorrect that has been posted here and i appreciate all of the input, im just trying to get a better grasp of how the paint and assy was done, but it seems there are great variables per almost every car and there isnt too much that can be said that is incorrect or correct.

some cars may have had much nicer "masking" then others and i guess there is going to be some degree of underhood and seal overspray on all of the daytonas but its degree may not be consistant for any 2 cars

[nascarxx29]

Just sharing the knowledge and whatever info I have Dave Patik has been around for a while a photographed unique 69 daytona details from back in the day to present.And showed me things I missed on my own car present..He has a restoration manual and judging sheets of what details judges look for

[FJ5WING]

Dave
please lets keep this on topic, so it stays educational in ref to daytonas assy process

Doug
a friend of mine has a couple of and has restored and researched 289 and 427 cobras in depth

[TONY]

sorry,
cobras are hand built cars and the same logic of cars being built by human hands can be applied to daytonas

[held1823]

sorry, cobras are hand built cars and the same logic of cars being built by human hands can be applied to daytonas

yes, and no. i doubt cobras were cobbled together in a mad rush to get them out the door. one car was built with pride in craftsmanship; the other with future warranty repairs a guarantee.

[Aero426]

sorry, cobras are hand built cars and the same logic of cars being built by human hands can be applied to daytonas

yes, and no. i doubt cobras were cobbled together in a mad rush to get them out the door. one car was built with pride in craftsmanship; the other with future warranty repairs a guarantee.

It's the running change thing you see on Cobras, and why is one car slightly different from another.   I get where Tony is going.   The human element here is everything.  

[Aero426]

Doug
a friend of mine has a couple of and has restored and researched 289 and 427 cobras in depth

and from listening to him, when cars are "hand built" off of a regular assembly line there are going to be many differences and variables, and i understand when the "human hands" factor comes into play its very hard to document except for original examples due to the "game plan" not being in concrete and possibly have been modified during the production run

like i said prior, im not saying anything is incorrect that has been posted here and i appreciate all of the input, im just trying to get a better grasp of how the paint and assy was done, but it seems there are great variables per almost every car and there isnt too much that can be said that is incorrect or correct.

some cars may have had much nicer "masking" then others and i guess there is going to be some degree of underhood and seal overspray on all of the daytonas but its degree may not be consistant for any 2 cars

Tony, I agree with you completely.    

It seems we may see trends, but few absolutes when it comes to documenting the way Daytonas were converted once they left Hamtramck.    

I am sure the guys who did the work at Creative would be laughing at our modern attempts at forensic science 40 years later.   I would bet that a primary concern of a Creative Industries worker was, "When is it time for my next beer?"

[held1823]

i understand, to some degree, the obsession with putting a daytona back to within the N'th degree of the way it came. but in the case of these cars, that would include the crappy, mismatched paint work that a large number of them came with. ours was completely repainted when it was two or three months old. to restore it "correctly", it would need the same horrendous paint that led to it needing repainted in 1969. anything else is technically incorrect for this particular car's "as delivered" state.

dad and i both worked at the chrysler plant that made the suspension components for these cars, with him doing so back in 1969. there was little attempt, then or ever, to make one inspection mark 100% identical to the next. dabs made with a fresh paint bottle at the beginning of the shift would look totally different than ones made 1000 parts later, by the same employee, at the end of the same shift. i've personally seen parts where a worker might paint the entire edge of a control arm, out of boredom. to restore the car which received that part correctly, it would have to have the same artistic touch, which would instantly throw up a red flag on a judges sheet at any show. yet, the judge would be wrong in this case.

suppose a daytona needed a ball joint replaced under warranty. the original one had a white marking, signifying it was made on first shift. the replacement part, however, might have a blue mark, having been assembled on third shift. the car could just as easily left the factory with one of each color. does a judging sheet account for this? these differing scenarios  are surely applicable to how things went at creative. the painter working his sixth 12-hour day of the week is not going to mask the last car with half of the enthusiam as he did the first one, back on monday. he simply wants to get home, to see the kids before their bedtime.

personally, i say to heck with recreating the overspray and paint marks. there is nothing "factory correct" about a huge white "X" on a rear end housing, when it should have been blue, according to the time stamp on it. that rear end might have been assembled at the end of a midnight shift, and rather than refill his blue paint bottle for the last six parts, the worker just grabbed the day shift guy's bottle of white paint, snickering at the thought of this anathema and its effect on the show judges a decade later.

[TONY]

great input!
i love to hear from people that "were there"

what and where was the plant you and your dad worked at?

i love to hear this stuff

cool

thank you

[pettybird]

sorry, cobras are hand built cars and the same logic of cars being built by human hands can be applied to daytonas

yes, and no. i doubt cobras were cobbled together in a mad rush to get them out the door. one car was built with pride in craftsmanship; the other with future warranty repairs a guarantee.

Eh...handbuilt by the British? 

I know the point you're trying to make but I have a friend with a real 427 AC cobra which is currently wearing no paint.  Each bolt-on body part is coded to the car because they were ALL hand fitted, and the parts wouldn't fit on another car!  There are also 13 individual pieces of aluminium (pronounced correctly) in each fender.  it looks like a quilt in the wheel well...

I'm not at all saying that people at Creative were any better than trained monkeys, though!

[TONY]

ok, ill take it a step further to help clarify

the conversion done to the cars at shelby varied

i wasnt refering to the original a/c build

[held1823]

what and where was the plant you and your dad worked at?

chrysler's machining and forge plant in new castle, indiana. most of chrysler's suspension components over the years came from there.
the brick building in this photo was the original maxwell assembly plant, and had several major expansions over the years, along with separate buildings for a hammer shop and a forge operation. at the time the plant was closed, there was roughly 1.4 million feet of floorspace. in the time since, nearly all of the original building has been demolished. i don't have a aerial overview of the plant near its end, but perhaps larry does? it was a pretty impressive spread, for a machine shop.

i was a third generation chrysler employee, and worked there long after the musclecar era, from 1996 until the plant was closed. dad worked there from 1967 until the plant closing. it's a shame employee "greenslips" for new cars purchases weren't around in 1969, or the daytona would have a really cool byline to go along with its history. my grandfather worked there from 1950 to 1981. dad's brother, and two of his three kids, also worked there.

this history strays from the original topic here, but does offer decades worth of first-hand insight into the variations found in the markings on the cars. there was definitely no rhyme to the reasoning, as i am sure was also the case at creative industries. knowing this, from experiencing it, there is simply no absolutely "correct" template to follow, when restoring any given car.

[maxwellwedge]

For me - the correct way to restore a car is put everything back on that was found on THAT car. Not go by other peoples originals or restorations.

Each car has its own personality/identity. That is the only way I do it - The car gets its personality back. Over 95% of the hobby does not seek that level (aka sickness) - factory warts and all.....and that's fine with me. To each their own.

[69_500]

For me - the correct way to restore a car is put everything back on that was found on THAT car. Not go by other peoples originals or restorations.

Each car has its own personality/identity. That is the only way I do it - The car gets its personality back. Over 95% of the hobby does not seek that level (aka sickness) - factory warts and all.....and that's fine with me. To each their own.

I would say its probably closer to 98% that doesn't like all the warts. But as for me, I'm all in on that stuff. I like it. Heck who am I kidding. I LOVE IT.

[held1823]

just watch. someone will eventually restore a daytona with one type of paint on the body and another type on the aero pieces, some of it correctly peeling off the window plug, all in the name of accuracy.  

as for each car having its own personality, dad once told me that his was a "hateful b*^#*, kind of like your mother"...

[69_500]

just watch. someone will eventually restore a daytona with one type of paint on the body and another type on the aero pieces, some of it correctly peeling off the window plug, all in the name of accuracy.  

as for each car having its own personality, dad once told me that his was a "hateful b*^#*, kind of like your mother"...

Careful or Geno will be striping his car back down to do just that.

[hemigeno]

just watch. someone will eventually restore a daytona with one type of paint on the body and another type on the aero pieces, some of it correctly peeling off the window plug, all in the name of accuracy.  

as for each car having its own personality, dad once told me that his was a "hateful b*^#*, kind of like your mother"...

Careful or Geno will be striping his car back down to do just that.

If we could still get lacquer paint, it would have already happened...

[Charger-Bodie]

just watch. someone will eventually restore a daytona with one type of paint on the body and another type on the aero pieces, some of it correctly peeling off the window plug, all in the name of accuracy.  

as for each car having its own personality, dad once told me that his was a "hateful b*^#*, kind of like your mother"...

Careful or Geno will be striping his car back down to do just that.

If we could still get lacquer paint, it would have already happened...

you can still get laquer paint.

[Davtona]

just watch. someone will eventually restore a daytona with one type of paint on the body and another type on the aero pieces, some of it correctly peeling off the window plug, all in the name of accuracy. 

as for each car having its own personality, dad once told me that his was a "hateful b*^#*, kind of like your mother"...

Careful or Geno will be striping his car back down to do just that.

If we could still get lacquer paint, it would have already happened...

you can still get laquer paint.

Wouldn't it be enamel or acyclic enamel that was used originally?? 

[maxwellwedge]

The factory used acrylic enamel. Creative used lacquer because it dried faster. So the cars have both on them.

[TONY]

lacquer, just like on the nose,scoops and wing on bird  

[moparstuart]

just watch. someone will eventually restore a daytona with one type of paint on the body and another type on the aero pieces, some of it correctly peeling off the window plug, all in the name of accuracy.  

as for each car having its own personality, dad once told me that his was a "hateful b*^#*, kind of like your mother"...

holy crap I just spit all over my keyboard   

[hemi68charger]

For me - the correct way to restore a car is put everything back on that was found on THAT car. Not go by other peoples originals or restorations.

Here here..........

[TONY]

For me - the correct way to restore a car is put everything back on that was found on THAT car. Not go by other peoples originals or restorations.

I totally agree, but sometimes you want to verify/confirm the original workmanship your looking at on a car (especially due to the original slip shod work and care or lack there of to fit + finish in ref to Daytonas), or cars that arent always that good of an untouched original example and therefore original examples need to be used as reference

[maxwellwedge]

Yes True - especially if your starting with a tough car.

[TONY]

even if the car isnt tough, its just hard to fathom all of the variances of overspray from mild to wild and in randomly different places

like i said earlier, its hard to say whats right or wrong because there is no set pattern

[moparstuart]

For me - the correct way to restore a car is put everything back on that was found on THAT car. Not go by other peoples originals or restorations.

Here here..........

It all depend on what your going to do with the car also , if you want a driver then this is really not the road to go .  Personally I like to see a few of these type cars , but i would never own one because I need to drive mine and drive the hell out of it if i want too.        

[FJ5WING]

I agree with Tony...especially if a car wasnt garaged as a second car from day 1. My car was a daily driven ride until 1977, since then has been driven less and less by the next three owners. I've found very little in the way of inspection markings. What I have found hasent fit the bill of accepted either...so now what? Do I use what I have and have to "fight" with someone everytime they tell me thats not right?

[hemigeno]

 

That's actually part of the problem...  We've replicated several characteristics observed on my car pre-restoration, and have had a difficult time convincing some folks that it should be that way.  Photos help some, but for the most part if it doesn't fit the mold of conventional restoration wisdom, it's an uphill battle.  DAMHIK