Repro wing car metal nose tech ?

[nascarxx29]

In my recent winged warrior newsletter theres this statement in the ad. From Jack Mc Gaughey.A nascar metal fabricator out of GA.And it says( DUE TO VARIATIONS IN FENDERS .I NEED YOUR CAR TO CORRECTLY FIT NOSE CONE..And I have heard this statement before from only one other vendor many years back and I wondered why that is as.My thoughts are on this if you copy a original nos cone or a good survivor one for your mold.Then every nose copy will be the same as the back in the day factory production run of those nose cones.And they tend to be around $6000-$7000.And you have a additional expense to have a car shipped to GA.I would think the factory mass production assembled fenders would have been in some kind of a holding jig before becoming welded up.And run alike

[BigBlockSam]

 

[Old Moparz]

It's probably due to the fact that after so many years these cars have been hit, rusted, sagged, taken apart, restored & just wore out due to the conditions that vary with each car. Also, some people have less tolerance for a part that may not look as tight fitting as they could. The factory did build junk at times, & the quality control always suffered. Most cars that are restored are done so to look better, & have better parts than new. A lot become show cars that aren't daily drivers anymore.

If Jack Mc Gaughey can fabricate a part to fit perfect, why not? It won't take any more on his part to do it right as opposed to doing it almost right. He charges quite a bit for these noses, & whether it's worth the price or not to someone, for that kind of money, it should be perfect. That, & he may also want to have a very happy customer to refer him to another person. For someone in my postion, I can't afford a part like his, & also not worried about a perfect fit since I plan on beating on my car once in a while.

[nascarxx29]

I can see that if the car is not square .And needed frame straightening.Or front end support structure.Replaced and not welded up right .Those would alter fitting and alignment issues .Then you got the untouched survivor cars.I had superbirds where the original fender tops didnt mate well to the original nose  corners.And they had these nose rubber filler material inside.Not like the daytona where it shows the rubber filler.And figured that how it was going to be and fit like as creative did them as they are.They didnt hand build these like as if was a Mercedes.They stamped them out in a press and brazed them together for the run of needed cars .And how it was was how it was.Gave each car its own individual personality.

[Highbanked Hauler]

 Good salesmanship? Tolerences weren't what they are now and most people weren't around in that era and are looking for a level of perfection that wasn't there.Also there is the "tweek it to fit" factor.He can make the nose "fit" so when the customer puts it on the car everybody is happy.

[hotrod98]

With a steel nose, I can see where there would be a need for custom fitting. If the part were fiberglass, it would be easy to reshape to conform to the fender after installation. But, once that steel nose is built, there ain't no changing it. Well, not easily anyway.

[dayclona]

It's probably due to the fact that after so many years these cars have been hit, rusted, sagged, taken apart, restored & just wore out due to the conditions that vary with each car. Also, some people have less tolerance for a part that may not look as tight fitting as they could. The factory did build junk at times, & the quality control always suffered. Most cars that are restored are done so to look better, & have better parts than new. A lot become show cars that aren't daily drivers anymore.

If Jack Mc Gaughey can fabricate a part to fit perfect, why not? It won't take any more on his part to do it right as opposed to doing it almost right. He charges quite a bit for these noses, & whether it's worth the price or not to someone, for that kind of money, it should be perfect. That, & he may also want to have a very happy customer to refer him to another person. For someone in my postion, I can't afford a part like his, & also not worried about a perfect fit since I plan on beating on my car once in a while.

     Bob,................you,ve pretty much on the "mark" there!....................as restoration s reach higher levels, become more $$$$$$, ...people demand a higher degree of quality "control" in their cars  restoration, and the quality of the repro parts must reflect this desire!..............Dave, I thought you were versed in the "history of the nosecones"?............................they were fabed on the Kirksite forms, basicly a body buck,.........kirsite is an alloy, with lead like properties, and hard like zinc,.................the nose panels were formed over the "bucks", being hammered to contour, fit one another, then  when finialized, welded....................this led to one problem, the kirsite, being "soft", gave way to repeated blows from hammers, spoons,etc...............so the metalsmiths, after createing a nosecone would, heat and reshape the distorted areas,........problem #2.............no two cones are the same!....................problem #3              human fatique,..............the original number of cars to be built was to be 50,.......that's why this tecnique was chosen (cost saving was cheap labor, verses tooling cost of die stamping)..............50 cones    for 50  assorted factory backed/ private race teams, not the later 500 required by NASCAR!..................this put tremendous strains on what later became the 16 man crew making 12 -14 cones per day!..........so what QC there  was,...... was now going "south", big time........never mind when the demand for the # of bird cones that would be required later!...............Gene Gregory, later bought these kirksite "bucks", when  Chrysler cleaned house, I believe he got 4 out of the 6 originals, the original prototype Mahogonany wood daytona nosecone has never been found! this was used to create the kirksite "bucks"................the engineering team at CREATIVE IND. crafted the wooden nose!......this is how backyard or lowbuck this program was!............however Mr. Gregory used the kirksites to "tool the nessacary dies" needed for him to recreate a short run of nosecones and panels in the late 80's into the early 90's...........Gene later sold the kirsites for scrap value, as  they were replaced with more progressive tooling!.......however a piece of history is lost!.................Gene has a few projects in the works, Nosecones.......? maybe...........$10K!

              When Jack McGaughey got started on the merry wing trail several years ago, we talk after he completed repairing his first cone, and he told me , he made templates and would use them to repair the next rotted, damaged cone he received, and someday possible fabrication of complete cones..............I told Jack, the "history of the cone", and to beware of no 2 cones being the same!...............well, Jack was skeptical at first!.................until several months later he called me, in disgust!, that he now had 6 different templates in his shop, 3 more used cones, none of which matched any of his templates!...........he said what am I too do!, I told him either settle with the templates from the best cone you 've had or start matching them to the cars if possible!...............well we see which way he's going!...........the Daytona nose is forgiving as it sits 3/4" away from the fenders, because of the "filler" strip,.........so alignment is not as critical as the bird!.............the bird cone I have presently, is a very nice, never hit piece, however its soft, because surface rust has thinned it to paper thickness!...........it has however lent itself to producing a nice mold for the bird cones I hope to have ready this summer!..........only a small handful!..........I recently had acsess to a NOS  bird cone, beautiful, only proplem was the grill area was so deminsionaly off!, it wasn't funny!...........I passed on that as a candiate,......as I've said to the "dopes" that demand NOS, over better quality repros, NOS is line (assembly) reject, vendor QC rejects!..........when the federal act was passed in the late fiftys, requiring that auto manufactures maintain a minimum of 7 years inventory of parts for each model offered, inventory became a problem!..........however the "bean counters" saw a loophole!...........instead of destroying QC / line failed parts, return them to inventory!..........thus sometimes NOS=junk!........I've had some weird look'in NOS stuff in the last 25- 30 years of buying it!............I sure some of you have seen some "strange things" also!............well enough from me!


Mike G/ DAYCLONA

[Highbanked Hauler]

    WOW,the things you don't learn in school!!!

[dayclona]

    WOW,the things you don't learn in school!!!

Hey " Hauler"..........enjoyed seeing, you and your car over the years! esp. the Vernon show!.............................so you didn't go to Wing'r University? ................that's right: you 500 guys go to Clipped wing High School!........................you know to us wingcar guys, you 500 guys are a "bird" of a different feather., we still flock together..................but, you guys.............your kinda like penquins................still .birds?, but no wings!



Mike G


Penquin,..........the other white meat

[G-Series]

MMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM    MEAT   AHHHHHHHHHHHH    DOH

[hemigeno]

Interesting stuff, Mike.  However, I do wonder where one tidbit you threw out came from:

the original number of cars to be built was to be 50,.......that's why this tecnique was chosen (cost saving was cheap labor, verses tooling cost of die stamping)..............50 cones    for 50  assorted factory backed/ private race teams, not the later 500 required by NASCAR!

The memo I have from the earliest days of the Daytona (when it was still known as the "Super Charger") shows Chrysler intended to build 500 street cars from the start.  Of course, they also initially intended the nose to be fiberglass.  Is that what you're referring to, that perhaps race noses were intended to be steel and the street noses fiberglass?

[dayclona]

Interesting stuff, Mike.  However, I do wonder where one tidbit you threw out came from:

the original number of cars to be built was to be 50,.......that's why this tecnique was chosen (cost saving was cheap labor, verses tooling cost of die stamping)..............50 cones    for 50  assorted factory backed/ private race teams, not the later 500 required by NASCAR!

The memo I have from the earliest days of the Daytona (when it was still known as the "Super Charger") shows Chrysler intended to build 500 street cars from the start.  Of course, they also initially intended the nose to be fiberglass.  Is that what you're referring to, that perhaps race noses were intended to be steel and the street noses fiberglass?

   Gene, 50 cars were intended for factory / private sponsored teams, I remember 30 some odd # cars being needed to cover all the teams, with the remainder being back up cars,........I know chrysler tested a fiberglass nose, only from a economical production  point!...................however, chrysler never intended to produce street versions, the 50 daytonas were ok'd by Bill France, initially...........as modified follow up charger 500's, chrysler was presenting a vauge concept  of modification at the time, hideing their true plans,France bought it cause it was late in the race season, chrysler had a fair season................so some "front end mods", "spoiler lip  adjustments" we're no big deal..............I forget the name of the Ford driver who witnessed an early test (secrective) run of the first daytona mock up............went balling to Ford excs, this started a fury of calls between Ford, GM, Chrysler and France( France was in Fords back pocket).........Chrysler was forced to bring the car to Nascar mods for evaluation, they hit the roof!.....total production was to be 400 street consumption units ..............then ordered to 500 min.,,,,,,,,,,,,,,( consumption unit, being for sale to the public, build as many racecars as you want but, meet the consumption quota, NASCAR was betting on Chrysler "throwing in the towel", instead they "scrambled").................,fiberglass nosecones were considered for Nascar..........but the ruling was   denial,............several weeks into actual racing of the daytona............the cable reinforment  rule thru out the wing came about after one rear ender, with the wing going air borne ( I have that pic somewhere?)...................do you have the doc, your talking about, I think i know the one your talking about (wing Warriors, newsletter)  ??

[nascarxx29]

I got that August 69 motor trend.With the car refered to as the supercharger.Which is the white mule car.And read something somewhere mentionong about a glass nose would fold in at excess speed of 200MPH.And alot of my vintage 69-70 magazines that had introductry info.Had mentioned a fiberglass front end.Or fiberglass frog eye headlights.And in another 69 vintage magazine road test they show the mold and the glass nose on the prototype car in the studio.With model Sandra Quinn posing in front of the mold.Which lead some early magazine editors. And probably when it was in its earliest development stages to believe fiberglass was to be used on the front end.Also Hemi Geno I recall reading in the supercars book where the automotive press was invited to view a prototype daytona with a glass nose and wing.April  69.And that they used a ((500)).But I only recall seeing in the magazines .That white mule car with 3 hood pins pasted on reflectors taped out headlights etc etc .And it didnt have a flush rear window as a 500 would have.But seemed not right to me as they mentioned using a 500.A 69 500 its window plug is flush and added the daytona fiberglass nose and wing parts to it.If  remember all this stuff correctly.I do recall the 71 race car with the odd wing it had a window plug .And recall a testing device placed in the nose called the probe.Which the daytona almost got named after.And recall something else about a memo on that 71 mule car in the museum wasnt authentic.Just some more daytona related material. I can recall reading about from some years back

[hemigeno]

   Gene, 50 cars were intended for factory / private sponsored teams, I remember 30 some odd # cars being needed to cover all the teams, with the remainder being back up cars,........I know chrysler tested a fiberglass nose, only from a economical production  point!...................however, chrysler never intended to produce street versions, the 50 daytonas were ok'd by Bill France, initially...........as modified follow up charger 500's, chrysler was presenting a vauge concept  of modification at the time, hideing their true plans,France bought it cause it was late in the race season, chrysler had a fair season................so some "front end mods", "spoiler lip  adjustments" we're no big deal..............I forget the name of the Ford driver who witnessed an early test (secrective) run of the first daytona mock up............went balling to Ford excs, this started a fury of calls between Ford, GM, Chrysler and France( France was in Fords back pocket).........Chrysler was forced to bring the car to Nascar mods for evaluation, they hit the roof!.....total production was to be 400 street consumption units ..............then ordered to 500 min.,,,,,,,,,,,,,,( consumption unit, being for sale to the public, build as many racecars as you want but, meet the consumption quota, NASCAR was betting on Chrysler "throwing in the towel", instead they "scrambled").................,fiberglass nosecones were considered for Nascar..........but the ruling was   denial,............several weeks into actual racing of the daytona............the cable reinforment  rule thru out the wing came about after one rear ender, with the wing going air borne ( I have that pic somewhere?)...................do you have the doc, your talking about, I think i know the one your talking about (wing Warriors, newsletter)  ??

Mike, I do not believe the initial part of the Daytona's development went down that way.  That may be the folklore version, but no way, no how would Bill France have allowed modifications to the sheet metal of a 500.  Why else would they have had to put the A-pillar deflectors on street cars in the first place?  Why would they have been so worried about the fender scoop holes that they cut them on the street versions?  Why would they have put the wing (quarter panel) braces on the street cars when their top speeds would never buckle the quarters?  Why would they have put flaps around the radiator and K-frame when there is no significant advantage for a street application?  All because of NASCAR's rule of "you run it on the street, or you don't run it on the track" (I know, an oversimplifcation, but it's generally true).

For a while, the Daytona was even referred to as the F-series (1970) race car, and I have the documents to back that up.  The Daytona was initially planned as the 1970 race car, that's the whole reason the nosecone was fitted to 70 Charger front clip components.  The schedule was changed primarily as a result of the C500's loss at Daytona (Feb '69), and the Daytona emerged as a modified '69 model year car as a result.  The Charger 500 in a lot of paperwork I have is even referred to as the 1969 Race Car.

I had not seen the memo I just acquired before in any newsletter, although by no means have I seen everything.  If it hasn't been published before, it wil be printed in an upcoming WW newsletter.  One of the signators is Bob Rodger, and I just shipped a copy over to David Patik this week for him to take a look at it.  It's dated in March of 1969, and even predates the 3/8 scale model testing.  It clearly indicates 500 units to be built.  That's before they had the nosecone configuration settled, and long before the press car/prototype was converted (it even mentions a schedule for getting that car built).  That's why I mentioned the fiberglass nosecone reference in that document - it was sent out EARLY in the Daytona's formative process.  I don't know where the 50 unit story got started, but it didn't start internally at Chrysler.

I'll stand corrected on any of these points if the documentation is presented to prove otherwise.  I can back up what I've presented, and some things can be found in multiple sources.

BTW, the cable reinforcement for the wing is as you said.  Doug Schellinger has mentioned the car and the race that the event you described (the horizontal wing sectuib flying off) happened at, but I've forgotten those details.  I do remember no one was hurt, thankfully.

If necessary, I will scan in a copy of the memo, since it's not exclusive to the Winged Warriors.  I won't be able to do that until next week though, since the memo and scanner are at my office.

[Dodge-Charger]

There was a guy here ( or the old DC.com ) that said he had to make a pattern of your front end so he could make the right fit. As said before alot of these cars have been taken apart, restored or just had another fender added. All these things can change measurements and cause for a bad fit.

If your gonna do it, do it right the first time.

[hotrod98]

I think that it's way more than coincidental that the 70 charger fenders and hood worked so well with the nose fitment. There's no way that those parts just coincedentally worked perfectly for that nose. Many years ago I was told that the fenders and hood were actually pre-developed for the nose cone fitment since the 69 style hood and fenders weren't shaped correctly to make the nose fit. The 71 body style was originally supposed to be released in 70 along with the new e-bodies. That's why the 70 e-bodies and the 71 b-bodies share a lot of similarities such as mirrors, consoles, shifters, high back seats, etc. When they were forced to make a few simple styling changes at the last minute to get a b-body to market for the 70 model year they simply built a bumper to match up to the daytona style fenders. The superbird was a last minute plan also and they were forced to use the similarly constructed coronet fenders instead of creating a whole new fender to fit the nose. It's obvious how much of a time constraint they were under to have to do such a chop job on the coronet hood to make it work to match the nose.
I'm not trying to be an expert here, it should be obvious that I'm not, but I'm old enough to remember that ma mopar worked a little differently than the rest of the manufacturers.
If the daytona guys have the internal memos that refute this, I would love to see it. I've never quite figured out the timeline of that obviously turbulent year or so at Chrysler.

[hemigeno]

hotrod,
The memo I have does indicate that they were going to use '70 Charger front clip components for the Super Charger (aka Daytona).  Chrysler was going through a loop bumper phase about then in their automotive design - all you have to do is look at the '69 and '70 C-bodies to show what their trend was.

You're absolutely right that pure coincidence played no role in the fitment of the Daytona nosecone.  However, from what I've seen the nose was designed/fitted to the '70 Charger sheet metal, not the other way around.

I have no idea on what the original timeline was for the introduction of the 3rd generation Charger was, but I don't think the '70 Charger front clip was an afterthought.  Had its fenders and hood not been conducive to a nosecone, I think you would have seen some other inventive solution to the problem, a la the Superbird-Coronet connection.

I still can't post the memo until Monday though.

[chargervert]

Hey Hot Rod, If they weren't planning to use the 70 fenders,then why does that photo of the prototype with the girl in it,have the 70 marker light stamped out in it! Dave I would think that the variations in fenders,and hoods would be more critical on the Superbird,than it is on the Daytona,the Daytona has the gasket,and would be more forgiving to tolerance issues! When I heard that before,I measured all of the 70 Charger fenders,and hoods,and none of them varied by more than an eighth of an inch,and most were within a sixteenth!

[nascarxx29]

I came across another document.For the daytona were it says furnish a XX29 charger daytona model .Made from a basic XS29 Charger R/T that lists (400) units 4-15-69 Job numbers from BX926100-927499.And at the bottom says build as a 500 RT.I do hope Hemi Geno will post that memo.As these type of unknown unforseen chrysler memos surface .I had one that I sent to Dave P Sue G.Where it was a memo from Frank Wylie asking to use on a 67 dart .The daytona name.Got a few pages with creative industries of Detroit letter head Aug 18 69.For superbird development details for plymouth nascar program miscellaneous tooling aids.nose cone cone assembly .060 rigidized fiberglass. etc  details.probabably isnt in any past or present newsletter.So there is this kind of stuff floating around .I hope that memo Hemi Geno has is something I never seen or heard of before .Like that dated 67 Dart Daytona name usage issue memo

[dayclona]

Mike, I do not believe the initial part of the Daytona's development went down that way.  That may be the folklore version, but no way, no how would Bill France have allowed modifications to the sheet metal of a 500.  Why else would they have had to put the A-pillar deflectors on street cars in the first place?  Why would they have been so worried about the fender scoop holes that they cut them on the street versions?  Why would they have put the wing (quarter panel) braces on the street cars when their top speeds would never buckle the quarters?  Why would they have put flaps around the radiator and K-frame when there is no significant advantage for a street application?  All because of NASCAR's rule of "you run it on the street, or you don't run it on the track" (I know, an oversimplifcation, but it's generally true).

For a while, the Daytona was even referred to as the F-series (1970) race car, and I have the documents to back that up.  The Daytona was initially planned as the 1970 race car, that's the whole reason the nosecone was fitted to 70 Charger front clip components. 


BTW, the cable reinforcement for the wing is as you said.  Doug Schellinger has mentioned the car and the race that the event you described (the horizontal wing sectuib flying off) happened at, but I've forgotten those details.  I do remember no one was hurt, thankfully.

If necessary, I will scan in a copy of the memo, since it's not exclusive to the Winged Warriors.  I won't be able to do that until next week though, since the memo and scanner are at my office.

         Gene,
Sheetmetal, engine, tires, rules,exceptions..............have all been made in NASCAR in the past, present................and will continue!
Dodge was allowed to install a spoiler mid season on the 66 Charger,  because of handling problems,...........becoming the first stockcar in history to compete with a trunk mounted spoiler
NASCAR "looked the other way" in late 68 when Ford was readying 69 Torino/ talladegas with Boss 429's...............did they build street versions .................NO!...........in a loophole, they installed Bosses in Mustangs, modified by Kar Kraft  (Ford's Creative Ind.).........France allowed them this for two years!..............as I said Chrysler also tried to "backdoor" the daytona mods on to the 500, France allowed the mods, ...........to an agreeded upon 50 cars,...........upon disclosure,actual veiwing,................. Nascar, (with Ford bullying France )imposed a 400 unit build, later modified to 500, as Ford pushed the issue,.....................(fyi the first purposed 50 cars weren't going to have the wing we all reconize today,...........have you seen a "squid tube" wing?)........................................................................Look at the imposed unit build on superbirds ,..........2 cars per factory authorized  plymouth dealer, total 2010+ units,...........( if you subscribe to the 1935,  1969 unit build , your out of touch with current facts).............later the imposing 5 litre limit on wingcars wanting to run in the later seasons,.........................as you may be aware, the 71 wingcar program was terminated in mid season 1970, as the 5 litre limit was imposed,...............however prior to that , a deal was made to have 1500 dealer installed 71 wingcar packages ready for plymouth, as plymouth was committed to their wingcar program, having given Petty racing full control of the program in late 69,( Petty would end his 1 year hiatus with Ford, if he had complete control of Plymouths wingcar program).....................the 5 litre limit forced Chrysler to abandon the entire program,..................fyi,...........GM, put up a stink with France  allowing plymouth, to have dealer installed packages ready for the purposed 71 wingcars!!................however approx 15 years later, GM is allowed by NASCAR to do the same thing with "glassback" monte carlo ss, and grande prix 2+2 cars,(incase you weren't aware these cars were dealer built)..............this was a mid season allowance, on Nascars behalf!

yes Gene the Daytona is an F-series listing, the Daytona was grouped with the superbird, thus the F designation, the 500 fell in the E-series desingnation with incompassed 68-69 body style,and the G-series(71) being the new purposed body, a G-series designation would have incompassed the 71-74 body styles, had they been built, the letter designation in wingcars /aerocars (500), is not desciptive of when a car was to be produced,(merely the aerodynamics.package applied to a specfic body style)..................................the insistance that the daytona was to be a 70 model, is based apon early factory lititure stating the cars debut as a 70 model, Nascar wasn't going to be duped into letting Chrysler run now, build later!, that's why the Daytona became a 69 1/2 offering,................................................................................................I too have many docs, access to docs, information, I don't suround myself at the computer with them however?(I have too many stinkin wingcar parts in the house as it is! ).................as the minutia in wincar history can become quite laden with paperwork, some valid, some superseded, some obsolete?


Mike G/ Dayclona

[hemigeno]

Mike, I had a very long message typed up in response, but I've participated too much in dragging this thread off course already.

If you have something that shows Chrysler intended to modify Charger500's without introducing it as a street model (and meeting NASCAR's homologation requirements), I would sincerely like to see it.  That position is simply not supported in the documentation I have. 

I'll gladly stand corrected if your position can be corroborated.

[dayclona]

Mike, I had a very long message typed up in response, but I've participated too much in dragging this thread off course already.

If you have something that shows Chrysler intended to modify Charger500's without introducing it as a street model (and meeting NASCAR's homologation requirements), I would sincerely like to see it.  That position is simply not supported in the documentation I have. 

I'll gladly stand corrected if your position can be corroborated.

      Hey Geno!............it's like 4:30 in the am, half awake.or half asleep................................................anyway I keep it short,...............Hackett Brass the sub vendor of  Centr-O-Cast, the main vendor of Chryslers pot metal trim, ........................Hackett Brass, being a very small opperation (nessasary to keep cost down in the wingcar development) was employed to produce 50, repeat 50, (Fifty), (5-0)..........experimental/ limited run spoiler stanchions( squid tubes, I mention prevouisly), this was all that was needed to get the horizontal blade up  in the desired air flow..............(do you know what a "squid tube spoiler" looks like?)...............the initial order was intended to modify 50 cars, exsisting or new construction, nobody knows?, because the initial Nascar/ France authorization was resended,.............as I mentioned earlier,.....................in order to use the modiforcations, an intial 400 consumption units had to be furnished,.(consumption unit being, a general public enity).later increased to 500 units.....................A run of 50 sqiud tubes was run, however they were useless as now Chrysler (and the styling dept) had to incorporate a marketable approach to "selling" the public "The Winged Thing"!!..........................Gene I too, can ramble on, I've researched, admired,collected what I could on the aero cars since I was a teenager, ....................some thirty years ago!, anyway Gene, one quick document to look at,.......................try www.WWNBOA.com...................look for Hackett Brass,or....................makers of the wings doc................should find in table of contents, .........I'll try to dig up others I have/seen over the years!..............................this should subdue your quest!, or increase your need for more info!

PS...........the then VP of Hackett Brass ,........was a Mr. Fine, Charles Fine,..............................not Larry Fine!


Mike /DAYCLONA

[nascarxx29]

I was the one who originally located the www.hackettbrass.com discovery. (Found in about or company bio) on there website.Winged Warriors/National B-Body Owners Association - Maker of the ...
Maker of the Wings By Sue George. Last fall, New Jersey member Dave Benasutti
contacted me to say that he'd been surfing the Internet and found a web site ...
wwnboa.org/motw.htm - 6k - Cached - Similar page.As found on this google search result
.And made that known to Sue and Ed at Winged warriors.Where I suggested that she make the contact for the club.And see what developed.That led to the maker of the wings article that Sue wrote up for the newsletter and posted on the website and.I also got a response from her for the 67 daytona dart paperwork.I have a copy of her reply for July 1, 2001.And got to find the maker of the wing email.I also had found a ex chrysler exec in my town .Who worked warranty .By taking down vin numbers back in the day at 1/4 drags and And would not allow factory warranty repairs .On the cars on his list

Hi Dave!

The Dart/Daytona paperwork came in Friday's mail. THANKS a million for sharing it with me! This is an awesome document! Do you care if I put it in an upcoming newsletter?

I also noticed that I forgot to run your Daytona wanted ad in the July issue. Assuming you haven't found a car yet, I'll run it again in the August which I'm finishing up right now.

Incidentally, did you see the $105,000 Daytona in the July Hemmings?! Yikes!!

Sue
Hi Dave:

That was a wonderfully interesting story about Mr. McGill getting the Vin numbers from the race tracks for Chrysler! Do you care if I use this little blurb in the October newsletter?

If you do get an interview with this fascinating man please write up a story about it for the newsletter. The members will really enjoy that kind of info!

Thanks!

Sue
WW/NBOA

I recently found a another former exec and made know to the club . Who had the job to allocate the finished waiting to ship 69 daytonas .From creative Industries.To the dealers that recieved there daytonas through his zone dept.

Im looking forward to see the document Hemi Geno has came up with.

[hemigeno]

Mike,

Just because Hackett Brass was initially commissioned to build 50 wing stanchions does NOT mean there were no plans to build corresponding street versions.  You're making a giant leap in logic, by taking the initial Hackett Brass instructions and assuming that is the limit and extent to the whole of the Daytona project.  It still looks to me like those first (Race) Daytona vertical stabilizers are taller than a street Daytona's, although it could just be the angle of the photography (but I have 28 Race Daytona pictures hanging on the wall, and 12 more in the drawer that look mostly the same in that regard).

Kudos once again to Dave B. for coming up with the Hackett Brass connection in the first place.  I do remember reading about it, but I did not link it to what you were saying, since your interpretation flies in the face of all the other documentation.  The links to the articles are not working right now, but IIRC the guy whose recollections were quoted was a little foggy on his details.  I wouldn't use that as incontrovertable proof that everything else written on the subject is wrong.  If that's what we should do, then every 4-speed Daytona should have a Hurst T-shifter handle on it, since the original owner of my car specifically remembers buying it from the dealer with one of those - the salesman told him it was special equipment... 

I contend that the engineers ALWAYS had the street Daytona in mind, and viewed it essentially as a '70 model.  As proof of that statement, here are two excerpts from R.P. Marcell & G.F. Romberg's abstract:

                                                                         ABSTRACT
The aerodynamic features of the race version of the Charger Daytona, an aerodynamically modified 1970 Charger, are discussed.  Effects of major specific modifications are evaluated individually and as a total package.  Wind tunnel techniques and philosophy employed in the Daytona Development Program are also discussed.

(bold emphasis added)

EFFECTS OF DAYTONA RACE PACKAGE - In developing the Daytona, it was not practical to improve all of the areas having significant effects on vehicle axial force, lift and handling.  Instead, only those areas capable of being changed within the stock car rules and without major structural re-design or without making the car impractical for street use were considered.  This approach resulted in the use of
"add-on" hardware to "clean-up" and improve the car aerodynamically.  The Charger Daytona has been modified in the following way to improve performance and handling through aerodynamics:
1)  Extended Streamlined Front End - An 18" low form drag extension has been mounted on the "loop" bumper mounts of the standard 1970 Charger.
2) Front Undernose Spoiler - A fixed 5" chord, 51" span spoiler has been mounted 13" aft of the nose leading edge at a 45 degree angle to the ground
3) Backlight Modification - The rear window or backlight slope has been changed from approximately 45 degrees to 22 degrees from the horizontal and the side window to backlight junction has been faired.
4) Rear Deck Vertical Stabilizers - Two fixed symmetrical vertical stabilizers have been mounted at the rear of the rear fenders.
5) Rear Deck Horizontal Stabilizer - A 58" span, 7-1/2" chord aerodynamic control surface has been mounted 23-1/2" above the rear deck between the vertical stabilizers.  An adjustment range of +2 degrees to -10 degrees is provided.

Items 1, 2, 4, and 5 will be referred to as the Daytona Aerodynamic Package since they represent changes from the 1969 race car.  Item 3, although different from the standard Charger, is a carry-over from the 1969 race car.

(bold emphasis added)


Do you have anything from Chrysler to substantiate what you've said?

[nascarxx29]

Here is Sues write up on the wing maker