The heater works!...sorta....well...uhm...help...

[Dino]

So after installing the new rubber seal and assembling the water valve, I hooked up the temperature cable and I bolted the whole thing onto the firewall. Reinstalled the sensor to the heater box and ran new heater hoses.  I didn't get the correct part number hoses as I want to get hose when I redo the entire engine bay.  I got the cheap 6' hose from Autozone.

Since the a/c controls didn't seem to work very well I took it out of the dash and found that the control unit was busted.  The yellow rectangular box was split at the seam and the back plate was loose.  I took it apart, checked everything and with a few drops of superglue and a few zip ties got it back together.  I 'think' I did it right because pushing in a slider cancels another.  The fan switch needs some more tweaking as well so I left everything hanging out of the dash.

I pushed the temp switch all the way in and went for a drive, by the time I was out of my sub it was getting nice and toasty in there so mission accomplished!  Well not quite...

It got really hot fast and since it's still around 60 out there I slid the temp slider back but no change, hot air kept blowing out of the dash vents.  I can close the end vents but not the centers so I had to drive home with the window down.

When I'm stopped there's no heat coming out of the vents but as soon as you move it comes out pretty fast.

I'm not sure what went wrong.  Is it because the controls are not hooked up?  Is the water valve stuck on open?  Sure hope not because that would mean start from scratch.  Did I hook up the hoses wrong?  I went from the top tube on the water valve to the connection on the waterpump closest to the radiator.  Bottom tube of the valve to the tube on the firewall closest to the valve and remaining tube on the firewall, closest to the ps fender to the other connection on the waterpump.

Any help is greatly appreciated.

[FLG]

If its anything like a 3rd gen, the controls need to be hooked up to close the fresh air door or you will get air ccoming from the vents when you drivee. but if your heater valve is working the air shouldn't be hot,mmaybe a tad warm but not hot.

[Cooter]

IIRC, the 2nd Gen as I can only assume that's what we are working on here, has a cable that goes out to the valve. Most times, the cable slides in the "Holder" on the back of the unit not letting the actual cable move the water valve. Need to watch as you move the cable and see what's not working..having two or more people while doing this is almost a must.

[Dino]

FLG I can imagine that it's like you say.  The air is more than warm though, it's really warm, full heat warm.

Cooter, yes it's a 2nd gen.  I used the original clip with a screw to hold the outer cable to the water valve housing and watched the inner cable slide in and out while my wife operated the control inside.  That's not to say something didn't shift while installing it into the firewall though.  I just don't hope it's the valve itself not being able to close off the waterflow hence giving me full heat all the time.

[Chatt69chgr]

I believe you are saying that you rebuilt the water valve by installing a new rubber seal.  There is one seal that is replaced by taking the brass pipe assembly off the steel backing plate.  The seal that actually stops the water flow is inside one of the brass pipes.  It moves in and out.  And it has a rubber part that goes bad.  This part used to only be available from a man in California who rebuilds these.  But I read recently that they are now available as part of a kit that includes both seals.   Don't recall where I read this--think it was on this site.  I'm thinking that this may be your problem.  And note that you only get a try or two at taking that brass pipe assembly off.  The whole contraption was never meant to be rebuilt and the ears will only take so much bending before they break off.  And Ranco is out of business.  Nobody, to my knowledge, is repoping this part.

[Dino]

I believe you are saying that you rebuilt the water valve by installing a new rubber seal.  There is one seal that is replaced by taking the brass pipe assembly off the steel backing plate.  The seal that actually stops the water flow is inside one of the brass pipes.  It moves in and out.  And it has a rubber part that goes bad.  This part used to only be available from a man in California who rebuilds these.  But I read recently that they are now available as part of a kit that includes both seals.   Don't recall where I read this--think it was on this site.  I'm thinking that this may be your problem.  And note that you only get a try or two at taking that brass pipe assembly off.  The whole contraption was never meant to be rebuilt and the ears will only take so much bending before they break off.  And Ranco is out of business.  Nobody, to my knowledge, is repoping this part.

Correct, I replaced the seal between brass pipes and backing plate.  I did not see a seal inside the brass pipe itself and had read on the packard forum that there is no rubber seal there and that it's the metal disc that fits snugly in the pipe stopping flow.  Guess not huh?  I honestly wouldn't know where the seal would go.  The end of the stem is a metal disc and blow that is a plastic body, maybe it fits inbetween?

Yeah I don't think I want to bend those tabs again, but that's not necessary either as the actual moving part can be removed from the brass pipe without taking the whole thing apart.

If it's indeed that seal I need then I'm ok with that, I'll find it and install it, shouldn't be a problem.

Thanks!

EDIT:  This is what I found on the Packard site:  "The plunger has no rubber seal on the end of it.  It is just a metal disc, but it does seal very well internally against the valve body."

And I found this pic on the Studebaker site, again no mention of a seal on the stem.

I'm not sure on how to proceed now.

[Chatt69chgr]

Not sure about those cars.  My valve for my 69 Charger does have a rubber piece on the plunger shaft.  And according to the guy that rebuilt my valve, this seal is what stops the water flow.  The round seal at the base of the brass pipe assembly is the seal that, when it fails, lets coolant run onto the passenger side carpet.  It's the one that you can buy from NAPA.  The little one on the plunger shaft is the one you need---NAPA doesn't have it.  They guy that rebuilt my valve is and told me about all of this is:

Mr. Jim Tucker, 29597 Paso Robles Rd., Valley Center, CA 92082.  His phone number that he gave me was 760-749-3488.  He used to sell the round seal that you can get at NAPA for $12 and the plunger seal for $7.50.  However, his primary business is rebuilding these valves for about $125 or so.  He may not want to sell his parts unless he has another source.  It's been a while now so I don't know if he is still in business or, for that matter, alive. 

As indicated, the plunger seal is supposedly available from another source based on something I read in the past couple of years.  I think it was a kit that had both seals.  Seems like it came out of Australia.

Ranco made these valves.  They are long gone I think.  Ranco was a business that was started by the guy who was the head of the Mechanical Engineering dept at Ohio State.  Father in law of Rod Serling (Twilight Zone).  Messing with one of these valves makes you think you are in the Twilight Zone.

[ChargerST]

Yeah, it's an Australian company.

I FOUND IT!!!  

Here you go: http://www.rarespares.net.au/rarespares/ProductPage.aspx?product=RSP335

[68r/t]

Yeah, it's an Australian company.

I FOUND IT!!! 

Here you go: http://www.rarespares.net.au/rarespares/ProductPage.aspx?product=RSP335

That is the correct kit,  there is a hard rubber seal inside  that stops the water flow when shut and over the years it becomes brittle and either a piece breaks off like mine or it just plain old wont seal anymore.
I used the above kit and it now works perfectly, I think you may have to be carefull when pulling your valve apart again as the tabs work harden and may break easily,  if they seem to on the edge of breaking  when you pull it  apart heat it red hot and dip it straight in  water which will anneal the copper and will make the tabs easy to bend over. 

[Dino]

Thanks guys!  Still laughing about that twilight zone comment, how true!   

I do have that seal on the stem, I thought it was plastic.  I guess it's no longer sealing so I'll have to bench test it.

One thing I did not check was the position of the cable operating the mechanism.  When the temperature slider is pulled back towards the driver, the cable should pull the mechanism all the way back as to seal the tube and stop the water flow.  Maybe I clamped the outer cable too far towards the mechanism and it won't shut all the way, although I would imagine the heat coming out of the vents would be less, right now hot air comes in the cabin regardless of the position of the slider.  In any case I need to check this.

IF I need to change the stem seal I at least won't have to take the brass tubes off the body plate again.  There's no water on the carpet so at least the napa seal is doing the job, so far so good.  If I remove the two clips off the stem you can actually push it forward and out of the tube by itself so it's not a big deal.

I will order the kit from down under as it's not a bad thing to have a spare seal but likely you guys are right and the old seal is brittle and no longer sealing the tube.

Before I put the water valve back in the car I checked to see how much movement that stem had and it wasn't a whole lot, at all.  Should I just lubricate the whole thing to see if it moves in and out more?  If so, with what?

Thanks all!

[Chatt69chgr]

Not sure about what grease or lube.  Maybe silicone grease.  Regular greases might deteriorate the rubber. 

Just wondering about the copper piece.  Never thought about heating the tabs.  Wouldn't you want to let the copper air cool to take the hardness out?  And water quench to make it harder.  I don't have any experience with copper along these lines.  Just iron.  But it's a darned good suggestion.  And good catch about the plunger being removed from the front of the tube. 

Looks like if the Australian parts are really available and one does and a little work then folks should be able to fix their water valves.  Also note that I don't think the capillary tube mechanism is really mandatory to have.  It just modulates the temperature to fine tune the heat output.  The rough setting would be via the temp cable and the position of the plunger.  And I don't know of any source for the capillary tube mechanism.

I did surf around and found a source for the temp cable.  Not exact size but probably close enough.  The guy even puts the loops on the ends.  If anyone needs that source I can post it.

[ChargerST]

Please post the source where you can get the temperature control cable (for A/C cars). Thanks 

[Chatt69chgr]

I found this by surfing.  Have not tried to contact this source myself:

http://www.rayeveritt.com/HeaterCables/HeaterCables.html

[ChargerST]

Awesome!  now I only need to know how long my cable should be (and the travel of the cable)...

[68r/t]

Not sure about what grease or lube.  Maybe silicone grease.  Regular greases might deteriorate the rubber. 

Just wondering about the copper piece.  Never thought about heating the tabs.  Wouldn't you want to let the copper air cool to take the hardness out?  And water quench to make it harder.  I don't have any experience with copper along these lines.  Just iron.  But it's a darned good suggestion.  And good catch about the plunger being removed from the front of the tube. 

Looks like if the Australian parts are really available and one does and a little work then folks should be able to fix their water valves.  Also note that I don't think the capillary tube mechanism is really mandatory to have.  It just modulates the temperature to fine tune the heat output.  The rough setting would be via the temp cable and the position of the plunger.  And I don't know of any source for the capillary tube mechanism.

I did surf around and found a source for the temp cable.  Not exact size but probably close enough.  The guy even puts the loops on the ends.  If anyone needs that source I can post it.

Copper is the opposite to iron and it anneals itself when quenched, try it with an old piece of copper you will surprised how soft it gets.
In  the case of the water tap it's a bonus that you can get the rubber valve out without disturbing the rest of it. 

[GMP440]

Sounds like you are still having issues with the vacuum switch.  Use a vacuum guage and measure the vacuum to the vacuum switch at idle and then at a higher engine speed.  Could also be that a vacuum diaphragm may be leaking and closing off a door when at idle speed.  Your heater valve is probably working ok and you just need to adjust the cable.

[mmcquay]

I have an interesting wrinkle to this situation. 

I have a '68 Charger and I've got the heater valve, mostly.  When I pulled it out a couple of days ago, the little brass rod/plunger was no longer in the valve body.  I know it was there years ago, but I haven't had the hoses on it in forever, so there's no telling where it fell out (or what I may have done with it if I pulled it out myself 20 years ago).  I figure I'm going to have to make a plunger from scratch using brass rod.  I've looked online and found pictures of a couple of brass plungers, but they were from other cars (studebaker, etc.)  Assuming the brass rod in those pictures is the same diameter as the one for the Charger (since they use the same outer seal) I calculate the rod diameter to be about 3.5mm. 

Can anyone post a picture of the correct brass rod/plunger for a '68-'69 Charger with a dime or something in the picture for reference so I can get measurements of rod length/diameter, where all the grooves are, etc?  (or if someone just happens to have diagram of the plunger with all the correct dimensions, that would be great, too   )

P.S.
I picked up one of the seals from Napa today ($10.84 after tax in Tulsa), but I'll probably go ahead and order the kit from Australia in order to get the other seal.

[Dino]

I think I may just go ahead and swap out the vacuum switch, the slider buttons don't work all that great and I don't think I want to be messing around with it a lot.  For about $60 I can make sure the switch is not the problem.  I'll remove the valve again and see what's going on, likely it is the cable, but if not then I'll have to replace the seal on the stem.

mmcquay I don't have the measurements but the od of the stem should be the same as the id of the tube.

[mmcquay]

Hmmm.  Hadn't thought of that.  Shows how closely I looked at the heater valve. 

In my defense, I haven't taken it apart yet.  It should be easier to see that tube once the seal is out.