440 plugs - who can read my fortune? pics of plugs

[69chargeryeehaa]

Please read my spark plugs and make any suggestions?

I've posted the pics of my plugs on here: http://photobucket.com/albums/d13/69martin/spark%20plugs/

I pulled and took pics of 2 plugs from each bank, all the rest look very similar if not the same, so the 2 plugs represent all the rest.

Here are my specs/setup:

1969 dodge charger 440 (engine is a 74 newyorker block, bored 0.30" ever, stock cam reground to? I don't know!!!!)
195* thermostat
headman headers, 2.5" exhaust with flowmasters 2 chamber
edelbrock dual plane intake ch4b
carter afb 9755s 750cfm competition series carb (same as eddy #1407 750cfm performer) jetted and metering rods and springs stock (same as stock eddy #1407 carb)
rear gear 3.23 with 28" tires (rear tires: 275 r15 60) believe to be final ratio of 3.08?
gas: 87 octane pump (ya I know, I know....!!!!!)
timing: currently set at 5* initial, mechanical advance of 20* all in at 2300rpm, 14*-15* vacuum advance. Total timing of 40* at about 2500rpm-3000rpm, 15*inch pds of vac at idle.
plug gap: 0.035"

Car is only driven street/cruise with the occasional race here and there.....shhhhhhh!!!!
Only current drivability problem is off idle hesitation/bog from a stop when light acceleration (normal acceleration from a stop).
I did run the car at about 12-15* initial and the off idle hesitation/bog was still there, but I had ping at wot.

I'm no expert but it looks lean to me a bit, what should I change?

[BigBlockSam]

how many miles on those plugs. they look good. maybe alittle lean but i'd rather be alittle lean the alittle rich. Rene

[69chargeryeehaa]

about 4000mi on the plugs, funny, i thought it's better to be a bit rich? but i think i should be aiming for more tan?

[BigBlockSam]

yea a little more tan would be good but it sucks when it  start fouling plugs. my cars idle alot so i'd rather alittle leaner.

[firefighter3931]

Yep, those are lean...you need to jet up several sizes. Those look allmost white to me. Ideally they should be tan to light brown. Lean will burn a hole in your piston if you're not careful....fix it asap.

The off idle bog you describe confirms that it's lean. 

Ron

[Just 6T9 CHGR]

No real input from me but whats with the AC plugs

[Chryco Psycho]

lean increases the heat , better to be a tad rich

[69chargeryeehaa]

ok guys, here's a update.  after alot of expermenting, and alot of crusing i think i have a good combo.  i ended up going 1 stage rich in power and cruise mode on the metering rods and both primary jets and seccondary jets.  so i had a stock 71X47 metering rod, and went up to a 68X47 rod and the harder springs, as for the jets, i went from a .113 to a .116 on the mains, and .107 to a .110 on the seccondaries.  i drove for 30 mins staying out of the seccondaries, and also for a few mins in the seccondaries, and did a WOT test and shut down and checked the plugs.  the plug color was the same for all, much more color, but not quite tan.  the ceramic under the electrode in the centre of the plug is tan, and there is a very slight dusting of carbon on the base of the seat, and a slight tan color on the electrode.  now looking at the plugs to me they look just a tad lean, but the carbon dusting which looks perfectly normal indacating that the mixture is ok.  i think i should just leave it there, the hesitation is gone and was fixed with the metering rod swap and springs before i started with the jets.  the elecrotde color is the only thing that is a bit off, to describe it further, the electrode strap has a darker color "tan" until the bend, where is lightens up just a bit, but is still tan.  what you guys think from my description?  i think i'm just going to leave it, seems to be running perfect, no ping at WOT, idles perfect, starts perfect, no diseling when you shut it off like before, and overall runs like a champ.  i really think all the crap they put in the fuel in the winter here is what is causing my color to be a bit inaccurate with the plugs, if i just go by how the car runs i'd say it's perfect.   how much faith should i put in the plug reading with winter fuel?

[67_Dodge_Charger]

I would try a 180 thermostat.  Your engine might be too hot with the 195 thermostat. 

lean increases the heat , better to be a tad rich

A better plug wire, plugs and coil will clean up the take off response.

-Robert

[69chargeryeehaa]

I would try a 180 thermostat.  Your engine might be too hot with the 195 thermostat. 

lean increases the heat , better to be a tad rich

A better plug wire, plugs and coil will clean up the take off response.

-Robert

thanks for the info, plugs are new, wires are Taylor sprial pro new wires, mp pro dist with ele ignition.  i don't think any of the components are bad, ignition is good, i think i will switch to a 180 stat, just wondering what is too cold.  i know 160 was way too cold, i'm thinking a 180 would be better than a 195 though.

[BigBlockSam]

180 is good  and 195 is fine too

[Chryco Psycho]

I would experiment with going 1-2 step richer again you may feel a power gain & milage as well , if it make no difference or gets worse you can go abck to where ti is now , the center ceramic is the part to worry about as far as the color  the top electrode is always hotter

[69chargeryeehaa]

thanks for the info guys, i know i could play with timing alot, but for now i have it set at 10*deg, getting about 20* mech all in by 2100rpm, and 14* of vacuum advance. when i'm expirementing with things i like to do one change at a time, i did the metering rod, with little change, then the metering rod springs, huge difference to the off idle hesitation, then i changed out the main and seccondary jets. last night i got to thinking, 67_dodge_charger mentioned that the thermostat could be too hot, so last night i swapped out my 195* for a 180* thermostat. intersting that it seems to run alot smoother, and would you believe that i now idle with about 38psi or so at idle, up from about 33psi, that's 5psi increase in oil pressure from just a 15*deg colder stat.....very interesting indeed. at cruse or any rpm over 1100rpm i have 60+psi of oil pressure. i think the 195* stat was just a bit to hot, and the 160* stat was too cold.......but the 180* stat was jjjjust rrright.. i also just went out and pulled a few plugs and they are tan now. interesting that a stat could make a difference in just 15*deg. now i'm happy, it's finally not running lean. and that damm hesitation is totally cured. i went for a cruise last night, about 70mi, it was cold out but the roads were dry and no salt. it's snowing today, this winter has been really mild, i'm glad i did'nt park the car, i've been driving the car almost every weekend!!!! now comes the timing, i think i'm going to bump it to 13*deg, see if there's any ping, ect. and go from there, thanks for all the info guys.

[BB1]

No real input from me but whats with the AC plugs

[69chargeryeehaa]

No real input from me but whats with the AC plugs

it's all i could get when i bought the car 300kms from home, and brought it to the cottage, getting it ready for the 200km trip home, i changed the oil and the plugs because the car sat for 2yrs.  actually as far as the acdelco's go, i would have never used them if i could have gotten something else, but after using them they seem like good plugs,  so i just left them in.

[deputycrawford]

I only use AC plugs in my 69. I will only use ACs. I have very good luck with them. You will never see me use Champions in any of my cars. I use Motorcrafts in my Fords and AC in everything else. By the way 69chargeryeeha, Where do you live? Im in the Toledo, Ohio area and have had a mild winter. I'm glad you have figured out your problems. My AC plugs were white until I jetted up my Barry Grant Mighty Demon carb and went from spark knock and 5800 RPM shift points to no Spark Knock and 6800 RPM shifts. Jetting makes a big difference. I will advance my timing and hopefully find a couple more horse in my combo too. Stick with what works and don't look back.

[69chargeryeehaa]

thanks man, i live in Mississauga, Ontario, Canada, near Toronto.  i agree, i really like the AC plugs, they seem alot better than champions.  it's incredible what power you can get by just tuning a few things.  not to mention how much better the car starts, shuts off, and runs.  jetting and timing are probally the most often overlooked things in cars, and few people really try to understand them and really pay close attention to them.  it took alot of reading and research to really dial in my car, but the difference is night and day, well worth the effort.  most people really get intimidated by it, once you know and understand what does what you really feel confortable going down the road knowing that everything is set up properly.  as for the mild winter, i'm so glad i did'nt park the car for the winter.  i've really been enjoying my car thru the winter, the roads have been really clean and dry with no salt, plus those big blocks really really like the cold air.  i don't even need to wash my car after a cruise, and i'm really enjoying driving my car, after all is'nt that what they're made for? glad i sold my snowmobile, there has really been a lack of snow for sledding, but makes owning a classic car that much more fun with thsese mild winters.

[deputycrawford]

I'm glad you are enjoying your car. Most of my car has been done except the paint. I want to enjoy the car while I work the bugs out. Then tear it down for paint and put it back together once. The roads around here have been salted for safety and I won't take the car out. I have had it out when it rained for four days and the temperature went to 50 for a few days. Thats when I worked a few bugs out all at once. I will get it out in the spring and start on it again. I would rather drive it; but the way it runs after paying attention to it is just to great. I know people have had good luck with Champions. I just have not. Keep enjoying the car and stay with what works for you. That's what makes this hobby so colorful. We all think differently but come together for a common good.     Well, now that I have gotten all mushy, I'll go now. lol

[is_it_EVER_done?]

As long as you have everything running the way you want, you're good to go, but I think you need a colder plug based on your description and photos.

The fact that everything improved by richening, and dropping the cooling system operating temperature, would also indicate that you have too hot of a plug for your combo.

As far as a "best" plug goes, If any brand plug was as bad as some say, that company would have been out of business many years ago. The reality is that every plug is somewhat different. Trying several brands and heat ranges out is the only way to find what works best for your combination. The belief that one brand is "better/worse" than another (which is absolutely incorrect), is severely limiting one of the most beneficial tuning aids you have.

Plugs have changed substantially in the last few decades. Not that they have necessarily become any better, but because the manufacturers have eliminated many choices that used to exist. Take for example Champion plugs for a 383/440 engine. In the 60's/70's the factory recommendation was anywhere from J-14Y's to J-10Y's. Now you can only get RJ-12YC's (as far as I know). That means that five heat ranges were reduced down to ONE, and that one is generally to hot for a warmed over big block. Every other brand consolidated the choices down also. So it is more important than ever to experiment with different brands and heat ranges to try to find the right plug for your engine.

[Charger_Fan]

I like AC plugs too, never have liked Champion.

And no, it's not just because they're owned by Fram (or is it the other way around ).

[deputycrawford]

I think IS IT EVER DONE says it very well. I like my AC's but Champions can't be awful or they would be out of business. Just keep tuning and like the advise said. I will probably run a heat range cooler in the spring and see what happens.

[Ghoste]

You can still get the different heat ranges in the Champion plugs.  The part numbers have changed a little over the years so you have to find a parts counter person who is willing and capable of looking up the plugs you want.

[69chargeryeehaa]

ya it's funny, and just to mention i'm not brand bias.  i run only champion copper plus el chepo plugs in my 74 beetle.  after spending $40 on some bosch iridium plugs they fowled up and the car ran like poo after 300mi, enter the cheapest plug, champion copper plus, total of $6, they have been in the car for like 10000mi, i just clean them gap them and re-install.  so it just goes to show you that in certian applications if you're willing to expirement and not allways brand partial then you have alot more options.  just because champions work in a beetle does'nt mean they work in a mopar, ect....i just allways keep my options open. 

interesting thing i noticed when i went out for  a boot last night.  i was playing with the timing, now i'm really confident that the carb is perfect, and mixture is also perfect, color on the plugs are really nice, so that being said, i tried the timing at 13*deg initial, and got ping at WOT, go down to 11*deg initial and just almost gone, seems like i have to run 10*deg for absoultly no ping, this all on 91 octane gas, ect... and yes, i went 1 stage rich on the secondaries and primaries on the carb, have done a WOT then immedieate shut-down and read the plugs and they look perfect.  so that being said, i don't understand how everyone else is running like 18*deg initial, man i would probally ping at idle!!!  maybe the damper pulley is out? i don't know, seems wierd, what would be done to my engine to make this happen? reason why i ask is that i did not build this engine, the preveious owner did and i have no idea what was done.  at 10* deg initial the car runs really nice, huge power, actually more power at 10* then at 13*.  just for your info mech advance is 20*deg, all in by 2100rpm, vac advance is 14*, so at 10* initial, my total mechanical advance without ping is 30*deg and total timing including vac advance is 44*deg (or 34*deg total not including initial)  any ideas? i basically power tuned it and backed off until there was no ping, just seems funny that all i can run initial is 10*? Ideas?

[deputycrawford]

It depends on what distributor you are running. I run the MSD billet distributor and put certain thickness spacers in to hold the advance back. That way I can run 18 degrees at idle and a total of 38 degrees at WOT. You might just have to play with the distributor advance settings. Every engine is different so You will have to continue to find the settings your engine likes. It sounds like you are close so don't give up.

[Chryco Psycho]

every engine likes things a but different , so what works for one engine may be way off in another so you have to tune your engine your way

[Headrope]

Is there not a spark plug color chart on this site somewhere? Seems like there should be an area where you can find such charts.
This one aint the best, but could be useful.

[myk]

Is it possible to have dry, lean looking plugs but still have a rich fuel mixture?  I've always believed my mixture to be too rich, but my plugs would say otherwise...

[69chargeryeehaa]

i've seen that in the back of a haynes manual, they just show all the extremes, but don't show detailed readings and what each part of the plug means with color.

myk - the answer is yes and no, from what i've learned, there are many conditions to which spark plug colors exist.  idle, part throttle, cruise, power mode, and WOT (wide open throttle).  so in essance there are many things to consider, for example your jetting could be too rich which would cause carbon deposits (black soot) on the base of the plugs, and you could have a grey strap.  this could be from too lean a idle mixture, and too rich jetting, so it is a mixed answer, you could be lean in one condition, and rich in another.  hope that answered your question.

[myk]

That would make sense, as my plugs appear to be in good shape but I'm positive that the fuel mixture is too rich at some RPM's...

[firefighter3931]

  at 10* deg initial the car runs really nice, huge power, actually more power at 10* then at 13*.  just for your info mech advance is 20*deg, all in by 2100rpm, vac advance is 14*, so at 10* initial, my total mechanical advance without ping is 30*deg and total timing including vac advance is 44*deg (or 34*deg total not including initial)  any ideas? i basically power tuned it and backed off until there was no ping, just seems funny that all i can run initial is 10*? Ideas?

Nice job on the tuning. Sounds like you've found the engine's sweet spot with lots of trial and error tuning....that's usually the way it's done. As for 10* producing the best results....it depends on many factors, most notably the cam specs. The longer the duration, the more spark lead the engine will want, as a general rule.

Also, you're assuming that the balancer is correctly indexed. Without checking it you really don't know where the timing "really" is. What you do know is that it runs good at 10* initial according to the current timing mark. At this point it's something that should probably be left alone.

Here are some instructions for checking balancer indexing :

http://1970chargerregistry.com/70messageboard/viewtopic.php?t=1885


Ron

[Chryco Psycho]

if the engine seems to rich at idle & they often will &  the cam will cause that , the engine may be set lean but due to the overlap in the cam cylinders will misfire [not fire] & cause the lope , this causes raw fuel to be pushed down the exhaust unburnt + if the engine is set very lean it can cause it to misfire even more & will smeel rich even if it is lean