INDY 440-1 Heads W/2.19 Valve

[Challenger340]

Never thought much about posting any Race Engine, or Race Fuel combo's on here ?
This always seemed more of a Street/Resto type place ? Pump Gas thing ?
Nonetheless,
...if anybody does decide to go Racing, or using good Fuels....
More along the lines of what "can de" done, using the INDY 440-1 Head and maintaining just the stock 2.19" Intake Valve size, and a NON-Roller, Flat Tappet Camshaft.
Obviously, more HP is available with larger Valves, and a Roller Cam, as I have since waaaay surpassed this mark by a longshot more recently, just this is Old from the Archives, back in 2006,
when I was trying for as much as possible from the 2.19" Valve and using a Solid Flat Tappet Camshaft.

Amazing how far things have moved along, even over the last 6 years since this one ?

Basics;
540 Inch Wedge
MP mega Block 4.500" Bore
Eagle Crank, 4.250"Stroke
Manley H-Beam Rods
Diamond Pistons @ 14.0:1 C.R.
Hughes Custom Solid Flat Tappet Camshaft
INDY 440-1 Heads, 2.19 Intake Valve( I spent alot of Time on R & D and Porting)
INDY Tunnel Ram
Ron's Toilets

This one's still running well...been freshened now for the 3rd time just now(new Cam)....

We had to enlarge the drainback, to get more Oil back to the pan @ high rpm after this one.
It was getting a little "worrisome" carrying too much Oil up top !
Next day after fixing the problems, it topped at 894.3HP and 765.5 Ft/lbs. holding 75psi with a minor re-jet.

[Budnicks]

Those are some great numbers,   for an older solid cam combo,   what's the 540ci beast experiment installed in  ...  Thanks for sharing it with us...

[Budnicks]

  I don't know if anybody else is interested,  but post some of you other "race engine" combos,     I would like to see some of them, for sure  

[tan top]

I don't know if anybody else is interested,  but post some of you other "race engine" combos,     I would like to see some of them, for sure  

   me too 

talking about holding oil up top  , remember reading & hearing  one make of  alumimum head for an RB  some years  back  , the way this head was cast  !  soo much   oil would collect in the spring seat area it would  cover the stem seal thinking about it might of been a MP head 

[Challenger340]

Those are some great numbers,   for an older solid cam combo,   what's the 540ci beast experiment installed in  ...  Thanks for sharing it with us...

yes, that is an old combo from waaay back in 2006, I just reprinted the old 2006 Data from the current SF902 Dyno Drive, that we uploaded from the SF901 before it was sold off.
It Campaigned in a Dodge Daytona for many years here in Div 6., surprising how far things have moved ahead even today 5 odd years later, NOT that anybody is still playing with Flat Tappets against Port Flow "area under the curve" ?
WHY ?
Wuffor ?
Rollers are FAR more capable, albeit harder on parts....

\I think the Best we ever saw outa that deal on GASOLINE, was just shy of 800 ?, maybe "just" over ? I forget, I'd have to go looking again ?
But it was reliable, consistent, and VERY maintenance free with the Flat Tappet(non Mushroom). About 500 pulls for the Cam & Lifters would show wear(under $200), check & re-shim the Springs as Req'd and away it'd go again, never a Rocker problem, even using the "break on dotted Line" INDY Rockers....

[Challenger340]

I don't know if anybody else is interested,  but post some of you other "race engine" combos,     I would like to see some of them, for sure  

Okay, how carried away we wanna get here....?
I'm assuming still N/A of course ?
572-13 stuff ?
Anybody played with Predators here..... ?

[oldschool]

i know all about indy rocker arms, broke almost everyone, i should know better  :slap:i use t&d,s or jessel,s now.

[oldschool]

wrong rockers for my app....

[oldschool]

the right ones...jessels for my 580, t&d,s for my 500" motors.

[Budnicks]

I don't know if anybody else is interested,   but post some of you other "race engine" combos,     I would like to see some of them, for sure  

Okay, how carried away we wanna get here....?
I'm assuming still N/A of course ?
572-13 stuff ?
Anybody played with Predators here..... ?

Hey for me it can be any type of build, I love supercharged engines also...  Never really got into Predators {carburetors?} knew a few guys who did, I wasn't impressed at the time but I get narrow minded sometimes I am way more receptive to change now...   Post away I'll check them out...   I was a big proponent of mechanical fuel injection guy, back in the day, lots of Enderle stuff, blown & naturally aspirated....

[Budnicks]

wrong rockers for my app....

O-U-C-H

[Budnicks]

the right ones...jessels for my 580, t&d,s for my 500" motors.

Those are like jewelry, perty aren't they...

[Challenger340]

wrong rockers for my app....

What brand are those ?

Those aren't something ya got from INDY are they ?
They always sent me "grey" anodized ? LOL !

I feel yer pain Brian, the stock INDY stuff seemed prone to breakage with Roller Pressures ?
I did get a few sets to last a few seasons...but everything had to be just perfect, and best success with a real tight lash down around .012 & .014 HOT seemed to help ? Damn near holding the Valves open when the Head was Cold !

Jesels are the ticket !
Even as a retrofit, we used to Mill off the pedestals on the 440-1's, add the jesels and spraybars, good forever !

[oldschool]

wrong rockers for my app....

What brand are those ?

Those aren't something ya got from INDY are they ?
They always sent me "grey" anodized ? LOL !

I feel yer pain Brian, the stock INDY stuff seemed prone to breakage with Roller Pressures ?
I did get a few sets to last a few seasons...but everything had to be just perfect, and best success with a real tight lash down around .012 & .014 HOT seemed to help ? Damn near holding the Valves open when the Head was Cold !

Jesels are the ticket !
Even as a retrofit, we used to Mill off the pedestals on the 440-1's, add the jesels and spraybars, good forever !

yeah those are indy,s 1.6 rockers. i had 3 sets. i broke every set. i dont think they are for roller cam use...

[Budnicks]

wrong rockers for my app....

What brand are those ?

Those aren't something ya got from INDY are they ?
They always sent me "grey" anodized ? LOL !

I feel yer pain Brian, the stock INDY stuff seemed prone to breakage with Roller Pressures ?
I did get a few sets to last a few seasons...but everything had to be just perfect, and best success with a real tight lash down around .012 & .014 HOT seemed to help ? Damn near holding the Valves open when the Head was Cold !

Jesels are the ticket !
Even as a retrofit, we used to Mill off the pedestals on the 440-1's, add the jesels and spraybars, good forever !

yeah those are indy,s 1.6 rockers. i had 3 sets. i broke every set. i dont think they are for roller cam use...

Not sure but, They look very much like the Chinese made Proforms that are only rated for like less than 0.500" gross lift & 300lb spring pressures or something along those lines.... Cheap shit..

[oldschool]

budnick, i think dove makes theese for indy. i would hope even indy would not use chinese rocker arms 

[firefighter3931]

budnick, i think dove makes theese for indy. i would hope even indy would not use chinese rocker arms 

The ICH rockers are definately made by Dove and not roller cam friendly 

With over 400 lbs open pressure and street duty your options are limited to Harland Sharp, T&D or Jesel. I run the Sharps on mine 

Bob ; any flow numbers on those heads ? They sure work nice on that 540 



Ron

[Budnicks]

budnick, i think dove makes theese for indy. i would hope even indy would not use chinese rocker arms 

I personally don't know who makes them for Indy, they look allot like the Proforms though, I doubt if Indy would sell Proforms, under any kind of warranty stuff, on any Roller set up, "or at least, I would hope not anyway"...   I was just commenting how similar they appear to to the Proforms...

[firefighter3931]

   I was just commenting how similar they appear to to the Proforms...

Yep they look like the Proform's but are better 

The Dove's are fine with a flat tappet cam using 400 lbs or less spring pressure....a buddy runs them on a bracket motor @ 7000 rpm with zero problems and hundreds of runs.



Ron

[Budnicks]

  I was just commenting how similar they appear to to the Proforms...

Yep they look like the Proform's but are better  

The Dove's are fine with a flat tappet cam using 400 lbs or less spring pressure....a buddy runs them on a bracket motor @ 7000 rpm with zero problems and hundreds of runs.

I know a couple of guys that use them {Proform's} also, with allot milder cams & spring pressures... They say they haven't had any issues "yet"... Have you seen or used the PRW's   I have seen a few guys using them I'm just curious on how decent they are, I will keep my old bushed Crane Super Golds for milder combos & Harland Sharps on my roller combo, never any issues with either on multiple engines now, I used Jesel's on a wedge engine that need offset rockers, a while ago now, they are/were extremely well engineered, never tried the others mentioned.....

Ron

[Challenger340]

budnick, i think dove makes theese for indy. i would hope even indy would not use chinese rocker arms 

The ICH rockers are definately made by Dove and not roller cam friendly 

With over 400 lbs open pressure and street duty your options are limited to Harland Sharp, T&D or Jesel. I run the Sharps on mine 

Bob ; any flow numbers on those heads ? They sure work nice on that 540 

Ron

Ron,
I dunno about posting Flow Sheets on those Heads? or sharing here, even on pm ?
In my experience anyways,
it gets into a "He said, She said" Penis thing if you know what I mean here ? Given, it is the internet.....

I am VERY proud of what I accomplished for Flow, they are very good Heads. I have been Porting & Flowing heads for over 35 years now so I think I have paid my dues and outa know what I am doing by now ?
That said,
I am a Business, and I hope you respect that actual Flow Data we obtain, and Cam profiles are proprietary.
I just prefer,
to let Dyno Sheets, and Track mph do the talking.....

[Budnicks]

This is a little off topic...  I would agree...  You can't really bench race, flow benches or dyno's, they will all vary some slightly from shop to shop, with how they are set up, were they are located, shop conditions, age/condition of equipment, temperature, altitude, air handler volume, etc... 1 guys dyno will spit out a set of number & another guys dyno will have a different set of numbers, the same with flow benches, unless they are set up "identical" at similar altitudes, shop conditions & equipment condition, there will still be minor differences, no matter what, from shop to shop...  I have seen guys compare them & be different almost every time...  You need to just trust the numbers from the guy/shop who is supplying them to you, for your particular combo...  Just my opinion...

[firefighter3931]

Ron,
I dunno about posting Flow Sheets on those Heads? or sharing here, even on pm ?
In my experience anyways,
it gets into a "He said, She said" Penis thing if you know what I mean here ? Given, it is the internet.....

I am VERY proud of what I accomplished for Flow, they are very good Heads. I have been Porting & Flowing heads for over 35 years now so I think I have paid my dues and outa know what I am doing by now ?
That said,
I am a Business, and I hope you respect that actual Flow Data we obtain, and Cam profiles are proprietary.
I just prefer,
to let Dyno Sheets, and Track mph do the talking.....

No worries Bob 


Was looking from a tech standpoint for anecdotal info. For example : My EZ 295's flowed 360@/600 amd made 720hp on pump gas. I know that these heads are capable of 850+HP because Dwayne made that kind of power on a Bracket type build (557ci) with heads that didn't flow as well....

Was just wondering what you were seeing with your equipment....nothing more. 



Ron

[firefighter3931]

I know a couple of guys that use them {Proform's} also, with allot milder cams & spring pressures... They say they haven't had any issues "yet"... Have you seen or used the PRW's   I have seen a few guys using them I'm just curious on how decent they are, I will keep my old bushed Crane Super Golds for milder combos & Harland Sharps on my roller combo, never any issues with either on multiple engines now, I used Jesel's on a wedge engine that need offset rockers, a while ago now, they are/were extremely well engineered, never tried the others mentioned.....

Ron

No experience with the PRW's but have heard feedback that they are descent for a flat tappet cam. One area i refuse to skimp on is valvetrain. The downside is not worth the risk, inmho. 



Ron

[Budnicks]

I know a couple of guys that use them {Proform's} also, with allot milder cams & spring pressures... They say they haven't had any issues "yet"... Have you seen or used the PRW's   I have seen a few guys using them I'm just curious on how decent they are, I will keep my old bushed Crane Super Golds for milder combos & Harland Sharps on my roller combo, never any issues with either on multiple engines now, I used Jesel's on a wedge engine that need offset rockers, a while ago now, they are/were extremely well engineered, never tried the others mentioned.....

Ron

No experience with the PRW's but have heard feedback that they are descent for a flat tappet cam. One area i refuse to skimp on is valvetrain. The downside is not worth the risk, inmho.  



Ron

I tend to agree that's not an area to go cheapo....  My youngest brother Mark {50 now..LOL..} purchased some PRW's for an on the cheap 318/390 stroker build with a .450 lift solid lifter cam it has a very mild combo, he was able to use the ball & ball style push rods, instead of the cup & ball style, I thought that was a kind of cool option, he never listens to me anyway, I told him to go with the Harland Sharp's but he's a cheapskate, the PRW's were 1/2 the price... I was just curious if anyone had any experience with them...

[heyoldguy]

 Budrocker,

I've used the PRW stainless rockers on 440 stroker street builds up to .600" lift with good success. A couple of other engine builders I know use them also and have no complaints. I saw one case where a builder was having a big problem with the PRW adjusting screws breaking. It turned out out he had all 16 valves hitting the pistons in that engine.

[Budnicks]

Budrocker,

I've used the PRW stainless rockers on 440 stroker street builds up to .600" lift with good success. A couple of other engine builders I know use them also and have no complaints. I saw one case where a builder was having a big problem with the PRW adjusting screws breaking. It turned out out he had all 16 valves hitting the pistons in that engine.

Thanks HeyOldGuy I was mostly just curious, my little brother Mark just got a set for his 318/390ci stroker for his truck... I seem to remember something in a post about you using them over at a MMM thread or something, my memory is so bad sometimes... I haven't seen his truck yet, I will need to make a trip up to Reno area to see what he's done, he refuses to send me any photos of his engine/truck build, he says it's the only way I will come up to visit him...LOL...