Comparing two builds...... which do I want !!!

[Canadian1968]

Hey guys have been researching some of the older build threds in the forum to help with my own

My Goals are no less than 500HP and 550 TQ on Pump Gas.  It will be a street car with a trip to the strip every now and then. I am looking for a decent amount of reliablilty as well.
These are the two builds I am comparing

VegasMike
http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,6000.0.html

and

Challanger340
http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,37136.25.html

The Dyno numbers are very close on both cars, Challanger340  seems to peak a few hunderd RPM sooner than VegasMike. I think I would perfer this for a street car?  My ruff plans so far are to have a set of 3.55 Gears with the orginal 727 Tranny.  Torque Coverter, I have not even thought about yet. Comparing this two setups this is what I have come up with so far                                                

Block 440 - .030 over
Cylinder Heads - Eddy PErfromer RPM 84cc
Ross Pistions
Holley street dominator Intake
CompCams XE284H Hydraulic Flat Tappet , 240/246 @ .050, .507"/ .510" Lift
TTI 1 7/8 headers
Stock crank .010/.010

I need suggestions on rods, rockers and Carb.

Lets  start there !!

Thanks guys

[Chryco Psycho]

 I would use a Proform Carb roughly 2x the ci  in CFM
I assume you are not going to a stroker build
You can do better with a Lunati VooDoo cam 60303 or 60304
PRW has Stainless adjustable rocker kits & shafts 

[Canadian1968]

No I am not looking for a stroker.

The cams you suggested,  they are for better over all power? or different power band?

[Challenger340]

I would use a Proform Carb roughly 2x the ci  in CFM
I assume you are not going to a stroker build
You can do better with a Lunati VooDoo cam 60303 or 60304
PRW has Stainless adjustable rocker kits & shafts 

IMO,
I disagree on the Lunati Cams....on this same Dual Plane Combo....
I have tried the Lunati's against the Comp xe284H on the Dyno, only the 60305 made more HP, albeit "marginally", with extra 13 ft/lbs Torque,
and,
that was only after ditching the Hydraulic lifters in Favor of SOLID Flat tappet lifters on the "Hydraulic" designed 60305 Cam.

Staytuned, I'll put up the Dyno Sheet for comparison.

[Brass]

I'll be watching this closely - I too have looked at both of these in consideration for a future build.  Several months back, Engine Masters Magazine also did a write up on something very close using the hydraulic comp stick and Icon pistons.

 

[Canadian1968]

Would I be able to stick with the stock rods, or will aftermarket pistons not work?
and can someone give me pro / cons between  Ross pistons or ICON?

[skip68]

I can tell you VegasMikes motor made his Charger want to go sideways every time he hit the gas.      
That car is a all muscle street ponder.   The proform 750 carb even gave it more snap.   

[Challenger340]

IMO,
I think one of the things to remember here when comparing these 2 builds, is that one Engine uses a SOLID Flat Tappet Cam, and the other a HYDRAULIC Flat Tappet Cam ?
While both should retain at least some Zinc content in the Oil for a period, the SOLID Cammed Engine will have "some" Rocker/Valvetrain noise as a fact of life....and periodic Valve lash check twice a year.....
while the Hydraulic Engine should require none of either....

I meant to get this up here before and forgot....
better late than never.
Unfortunately my reference Dyno Sheets get lost/misplaced in stacks of paperwork until I can catalogue ?

This is just a shorter "Quick" Blast run from that Engine, although I forget the WHY, we were starting so high at 3700, and only running to 5300 ?
Musta been chasing some thing Fuel related ?
or,
setting it up to simulate "Down shifting/Upshifting" by itself on the 727 auto in the Heavy 1970 Charger R/T below 5300 rpm, which is about where the 727 likes to upshift with just Throttle Pressure and no manual shifting....
I'll keep digging for a full run....
anyways,

[Challenger340]

If using the Edelbrock Performer RPM Intake Manifold ?
Check the intake port match, and correct if necessary......some manifolds are off......all part of the aftermarket parts/performance engine game.....

[Canadian1968]

I do like the points brough up about the hydraulic vs mechanical lifters.  As I am looking for as much reliablity as possible the hydraulic seems the way to go.   I am leaning to wards a Proform carb as well , since i have nothing bad about them as of yet.

I think I still would like to go wiht Holley intake, just because then I am not limited to the type air cleaner, and from the research they are very close performance wise.

Keep the comments comming guys, this is a great help.

[Chryco Psycho]

the Holley street dom intake is great , sit nice & low so you can use at least a 3" air filter on a drop base

[Canadian1968]

Could I use my stock rods for this build?

[justcruisin]

The LY rods are a forged rod and quite up to 500HP. If you are planing on Ross pistons the stock rods should  be bushed for floating pins, (but can be pressed) as well as sized, magnifluxed etc. If it was my engine I would look at an aftermarket H beam like the K1's or similar in a .990" pin. Look into the cost before you lay your $$ down.

[Canadian1968]

Update:  New parts so far

Block 440 - .030 over
Cylinder Heads - Eddy PErfromer RPM 84cc
Holley street dominator Intake
CompCams XE284H Hydraulic Flat Tappet , 240/246 @ .050, .507"/ .510" Lift
CompCams Hydraulic Lifters - 824-16
Proform 750CFM Race Carb - #67200
TTI 1 7/8 headers
Stock crank .010/.010

Now trying to figure out my piston rod - combo

[justcruisin]

SRP/K1 is a good combo for the street, 4032 piston for a tighter wall clearance. That will net you around 10.1:1 at zero deck. You may want to give your heads a shave depending on what fuel you will run.

[redmist]

I did the exact above... SRP Pistons were WAY lighter then other pistons, and the K1 rods were also real nice. My machinist made comment on how much lighter the combo was then he expected.

I used a solid Comp XS282S cam and made 500 HP/542 ftlbs. Love the power and it sounds down right NASTY   

My build if I remember it all:

67 440 block .030 over
SRP Pistons set at zero deck 10.2:1 ish compression
K1 rods ARP 2000 fasteners
Studded top and bottom
Eddy RPM's right out of the box
MP Dual plane (ripoff of RPM I liked the "WEDGE"script)
Pro form 850 (This thing was dead nuts right on out of the box!!)
Dougs 2" to 3.5" headers (bigger then I should be running)


I never ran mine past 5700 RPM even though the power was still climbing so I have no idea how much max HP it has. I was tuning for Torque.

[Canadian1968]

I did the exact above... SRP Pistons were WAY lighter then other pistons, and the K1 rods were also real nice. My machinist made comment on how much lighter the combo was then he expected.

I used a solid Comp XS282S cam and made 500 HP/542 ftlbs. Love the power and it sounds down right NASTY   

My build if I remember it all:

67 440 block .030 over
SRP Pistons set at zero deck 10.2:1 ish compression
K1 rods ARP 2000 fasteners
Studded top and bottom
Eddy RPM's right out of the box
MP Dual plane (ripoff of RPM I liked the "WEDGE"script)
Pro form 850 (This thing was dead nuts right on out of the box!!)
Dougs 2" to 3.5" headers (bigger then I should be running)


I never ran mine past 5700 RPM even though the power was still climbing so I have no idea how much max HP it has. I was tuning for Torque.

The Proforom 850 carb, was that a race seriies or the street, do you remember?

[redmist]

Street series. I wanted the choke. Its still a 4 corner, double pumper carb though. Just has a choke.   

[Canadian1968]

hmmm so you were using mech. secondaries instead of vaccum?  The Proform line up is a little starnge I think. 

As the price of this build seems to be getting bigger and bigger!! I am goin to go with Hedman Headers instead of the $$$ TTI. I have read that there is a model that works with the angle plugs on the Eddy heads just fine.

[Challenger340]

Update:  New parts so far

Block 440 - .030 over
Cylinder Heads - Eddy PErfromer RPM 84cc
Holley street dominator Intake
CompCams XE284H Hydraulic Flat Tappet , 240/246 @ .050, .507"/ .510" Lift
CompCams Hydraulic Lifters - 824-16
Proform 750CFM Race Carb - #67200
TTI 1 7/8 headers
Stock crank .010/.010



Now trying to figure out my piston rod - combo

IMO,
wanna really good tip.....gonna save you a Ton 'O Head scratchin later when your Engine is built....
DITCH your Comp Hydraulic Lifters IMMEDIATELY, and get ahold of Johnson Hylift DIRECTLY, and inquire how to get "genuine" North American made Lifter Bodies.

I'm finding waay too may defective lifters in Comp Boxes/Lunati Boxes/etc., etc., who all seem to be re-boxing EATON lifters, who unfortunately, because EATON don't wanna be in the lifter business......are using XhaingZou Machine Company Bodies for low Numerical production lines like Flat tappet BB Mopars........out of ......wait for it.....YEP...... our favorurite offshore junk dealer !

Small Block Chev & Ford lifters from EATON are still OK,
because,
they can make 30,000 at a time and be profitable, but runs like a Mopar, maybe a few thousand...nada...IMPORT.... and SELL to the unsuspecting Public...under "should work" ?
Believe me, they DON'T !

If you don't believe me...
go look at the Lunati Website...and read up all the "HYPE" they are spewing about their "MICRO-TROL" Hydraulic Lifters for BB Mopars !
"stable at higher RPM'S" BLAH...BLAH.....
Then,
pickup the phone...and CALL THEM about "where" they get their Lifters....push them...do NOT take "Fluff" propaganda...
eventually,
they'll be honest....re-boxed......STOCK.....EATONS....errr....XHaingZhou.
Seems Lunati does NOT HAVE a "Micro-trol" Lifter, or ANY HP Lifter for a BB Mopar......PERIOD !
They just say they do....

SAD STATE OF AFFAIRS IN THIS WORLD....BUYER BEWARE....  Comp are NO BETTER !

The only reason I'm telling you this, is because it will NOT change until people/Customers STOP BUYING their re-boxed garbage to save a few corporate bucks, and start INSISTING on quality. When word get out enough, and they can't sell that Crap, maybe they will figure it out....let them EAT the .15 cents a Lifter they saved !

The Cams themselves from BOTH Comp & Lunati are fine....just the Lifters are CRAP !

Johnson HYLIFT or NOTHING !

[68r/t]

Update:  New parts so far

Block 440 - .030 over
Cylinder Heads - Eddy PErfromer RPM 84cc
Holley street dominator Intake
CompCams XE284H Hydraulic Flat Tappet , 240/246 @ .050, .507"/ .510" Lift
CompCams Hydraulic Lifters - 824-16
Proform 750CFM Race Carb - #67200
TTI 1 7/8 headers
Stock crank .010/.010



Now trying to figure out my piston rod - combo

IMO,
wanna really good tip.....gonna save you a Ton 'O Head scratchin later when your Engine is built....
DITCH your Comp Hydraulic Lifters IMMEDIATELY, and get ahold of Johnson Hylift DIRECTLY, and inquire how to get "genuine" North American made Lifter Bodies.

I'm finding waay too may defective lifters in Comp Boxes/Lunati Boxes/etc., etc., who all seem to be re-boxing EATON lifters, who unfortunately, because EATON don't wanna be in the lifter business......are using XhaingZou Machine Company Bodies for low Numerical production lines like Flat tappet BB Mopars........out of ......wait for it.....YEP...... our favorurite offshore junk dealer !

Small Block Chev & Ford lifters from EATON are still OK,
because,
they can make 30,000 at a time and be profitable, but runs like a Mopar, maybe a few thousand...nada...IMPORT.... and SELL to the unsuspecting Public...under "should work" ?
Believe me, they DON'T !

If you don't believe me...
go look at the Lunati Website...and read up all the "HYPE" they are spewing about their "MICRO-TROL" Hydraulic Lifters for BB Mopars !
"stable at higher RPM'S" BLAH...BLAH.....
Then,
pickup the phone...and CALL THEM about "where" they get their Lifters....push them...do NOT take "Fluff" propaganda...
eventually,
they'll be honest....re-boxed......STOCK.....EATONS....errr....XHaingZhou.
Seems Lunati does NOT HAVE a "Micro-trol" Lifter, or ANY HP Lifter for a BB Mopar......PERIOD !
They just say they do....

SAD STATE OF AFFAIRS IN THIS WORLD....BUYER BEWARE....  Comp are NO BETTER !

The only reason I'm telling you this, is because it will NOT change until people/Customers STOP BUYING their re-boxed garbage to save a few corporate bucks, and start INSISTING on quality. When word get out enough, and they can't sell that Crap, maybe they will figure it out....let them EAT the .15 cents a Lifter they saved !

The Cams themselves from BOTH Comp & Lunati are fine....just the Lifters are CRAP !

Johnson HYLIFT or NOTHING !

Any idea on who makes the Mopar Performance lifters and Crower lifters?

[Challenger340]

No way to know for sure, Crower does do their own in house EDM process.....
Mopar ?
Well, they are just whores...whoever, whatever for best price.

SOLID Lifters, do not matter what or where you get it, no Valving internally to worry about like Hydraulic Lifters.

[GPULLER]

That's good to know on the lifters.  I was going to be asking about Comps High Energy and Pro Comp lifters.

[Canadian1968]

Other than these Hylift Johnson, is there any other lifter you would suggest. ??

Those Johnson lifters seem to be hard to locate

[firefighter3931]

The "if it were mine" answer to the cam question for a build like this would be a solid lifter cam like the XS282S  

There's nothing more reliable/stable than a non collapsible tappet....especially at higher rpm's  
 
I'd also use a set of EDM lifters to supply pressurized lube to the cam lobes/lifter faces for increased reliability.  


The XS282S is the "default" 500hp cam with 440 cubes/Edelbrock heads/830cfm carb and headers 



Ron