future second generation charger restoration

[jason41987]

hey everyone, im going to be buying a '69 charger in the near future for the purpose of a complete frame-off restoration, im looking for this to be the last car i really buy, as i intend to make a commitment to never selling it

i have some questions though... first, ive decided to find one with a 318 in it, its an engine with a lot of history, and a lot of potential... if the engine in it, or if i have to buy one seperately and it has rather low mileage i might keep it a 318.. if there are compression issues though i might employ a local machine shop so i can bore and stroke it out to 340, or maybe even 390

its about the engine that i have questions about... what id like to do... is something not so easily done, and its a "best of both worlds" scenario.. though i would say ok in both worlds is fine... what id like is fuel economy and power

so anyway, i plan to do a lot of traveling, so id like to rebuild this charger with carburator, ignition, exhaust, gearing, overdrive, tires.. whatever i need to get a good fuel economy... not so much the 50mpgs good of a 1970s VW rabbit with a turbo diesel.. but good on V8 standards (20-25mpg highway)... but id like to have performance as well, i think 400hp is enough to have fun when i want to and not kill myself when i dont want to...

so my question is.. with modern carburator designs, an overdrive gear, good ignition, exhaust, etc... is this at all possible? what ive learned about and i like the idea of, though my background is mostly fuel injection so im not 100% certain is good is the vacuum secondary carburators.. from my understanding these are four barrel carburators with two smaller barrels for fuel economy, and two larger barrels that open up for power when heavy on the throttle... would this be the type of carburator i should be looking into? and how much will an overdrive gear and quality ignition upgrade do for this goal?

im currently looking for a 69 charger in need of a complete frame off restoration and except for the upgrades i mentioned, my intention is to leave the rest pretty much stock... and i was strongly considering the 318 engine... but a 340 would be nice as well... im not so sure i would go with a 360, nothing against the engine itself, but if i can, id like to use an engine that was available in '69... though the 340 doesnt seem to have been offered for the charger, id like to do all this to a 318... but doesnt seem like theyre able to be bored out so much, and i think the cost to achieve 400hp would be quite high

from the chargers im looking at.. it appears im going to end up having to do a complete rebuild from the frame up, repairing the body panels, rebuilding the engine, rear end, front suspension, tranny... so i figured while this thing was in pieces i would use that opportunity to make these adjustments to the engine

anyway.. any advice is welcomed, id love to hear any information or help i can receive here.. and even though i wont be doing this build until after the coming snow is gone id like to take this time to put plans A, B, C, D and so forth down so i can be sure everything is done right.

[Chatt69chgr]

I wouldn't be worrying about the engine.  What you want is a decent body to start with.  And one that has as many of the original parts as possible and one that, hopefully, has not been modified.  Money wise, your best deal is going to be a 318 with auto and 8-1/4 rear end---unless it's a 68 in which case it will have a 8-3/4 rear end.  Then I'd plan on pulling the 318 and 8-1/4 rear and taking them straight to the junkyard.  The 904 may have some value to local racers.  The Charger is a heavy vehicle and needs a 383 or bigger engine for the torque.  If auto is OK then a good torqueflite isn't too hard to find and have rebuilt.  Look for a 8-3/4 rear end and set up with 3.23 gears for best road manners.  Keep the 10 inch drums on the back and put in a disk brake setup on the front.  If you stay with all Mopar parts you can put in the 11.75 inch disk setup for not too much money.  The booster is hard to get but I've heard that lots of folks dispense with it and find the system works well.  I'd do a lot or research on the engine before I decided what I wanted to do there.  You could go with a 383 straight with 4-bbl or stroke a 383.  Also could build a 451 using a 400 block as they are cheap.  Or just find a 440 and rebuild it.  Even with the iron heads, by bumping up the compressio nto 9.5 or 10 you can get pretty good performance.

No matter how much money you spend on restoring one of these cars, it will never be a dependable daily driver.  Just too many things to go wrong.  For the money you are going to end up spending restoring one of these you could buy a nice new Challenger and you could drive it every day.  Something to think about.

[jason41987]

you just told me old cars cant be reliable because there are too many parts?.. so a new car with electronic windows, power this, automatic that, sensors everywhere and enough wiring to stretch across the country isnt a lot of stuff to go wrong?.. ive worked on EFI vehicles for a long time and i have to say the more i actually learn about them, the more i want nothing to do with them, or the onslaught of electronic bullcrap one has to deal with when running such an electronics dependant vehicle... and i consider wiring to be perishable, since no matter what you do with the wiring, or how you wire it, those wires WILL corrode, short out, melt, or get torn so i plan to use as few electronics as i can, so theres absolutely no way i would consider something made past 1980 and i will stick to a second generation B-body charger...

i may go with a '68 charger though as the more i see them, the more im liking the lack of a split grill

as for weight, '69 charger weighs less than a new challenger by close to 500lbs so i dont see where you get the idea its heavier with more parts and a more complicated, unreliable system over something newer

[Dans 68]

...i may go with a '68 charger though as the more i see them, the more im liking the lack of a split grill....

Wow, for only having two posts you sure got smart fast!

To the point, you will need to go through the entire car, electrical and all, to get a dependable runner. Not really a big deal, but a bit of time checking everything. As you want to take everything off your car it will be relatively simple. To get the kind of gas mileage you want an overdrive transmission may be the way to go, with having good performance when you want it. Look for a solid car (that cannot be overstated), and go from there. And as these beasts are unibody the term "frame-off" is a misnomer. Look at this "guide"  http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,52323.msg574221.html#msg574221 in helping to find a solid Charger.  

Dan

[jason41987]

yeah.. i just use "frame off" as a general term for taking the thing apart down to each and every nut and bolt, cleaning, repairing, and rebuilding from there... the cars i looked at seems the interior will need new cushions, upholstry and of course headliner, carpet, some of the ones ive been looking at needs a wheel well here or a fender there patched up, engines are either non-existant, or needs to be rebuilt which is ok... if its not a matching numbers car ill probably like it even more since i wont feel obligated to preserve value by leaving it restorted to factory conditions.. but since im expecting to do work like that, a solid car will be my first priority

to be honest.. im looking for this level of a project... since i screwed up my head and neck (head injuries = frequent headaches, and i might be needing surgery on my neck soon) i have a lot of free time and make decent enough money selling musical instruments... but since it doesnt take me much effort to do that, i find myself bored often and in need of something to consume a lot of my time..

now, what would be a good overdrive transmission to use for this? anything available in the late 60s that wouldnt be so out of place on a charger?.. and with the engine selection... should i look into finding a 340 or would the 318 be a much better choice?... what would be really nice is if i could get the performance i wanted from a 440, but then that 20-25mpg range would surely be out the window.. i think id like to find a 340 if i can.. if not, then ill probably stick with the 318

ive been checking out aftermarket carburators.. vacuum secondary carbs look nice.. but im not sure if even with these the fuel economy i seek is possible.. anyone know?

[Cooter]

Nice goal kid, but I think you'll have a few problems getting 400 HP and 25 MPG..This thing isn't saddled with all the "Bullsh*t" you seem to not like. Carb's and fuel mileage don't mix...Good luck, but I think you've been reading too many magazines and need some seat time in the real world of musclecars first. Think all that "BS" that is on the newer Fuel injected cars is bad? Just wait until you drive a restored, antique car across crountry like you seem to think you can do...I was "Green" once too and thought I had it all figured out so don't take this personally....400 HP out of a 318/340? AND 25 MPG?

[jason41987]

hmm.. either cooters been having a bad day, or he's just one of those people that try to start crap online.. who knows, dont care, cute that he assumes im a kid though.. reguardless, im asking questions here because i dont have personal experience with dodge engines since until just recently ive only owned and worked on fords

anyway, as i believe ive stated, 400hp is just a target, if its not achievable while maintaining over 20mpg highway then for now the fuel economy would come first and i would probably end up with a smaller CFM two barrel carburator... though fuel injection isnt entirely out of the question, id just prefer to not go that route if i dont have to, and from what ive heard from other people so far, 20-25mpg highway with a 2-barrel 318 isnt uncommon at all and i do tend to like the 318 engine... so right now im just using that as my primary option and exploring other possibilities to see just what i can get in terms of economy and performance with upgrades to the engine, such as a better carburator, ignition system, exhaust, ect

[twodko]

Sir, Cooter may be having a less than stellar day but he's not stirring the pot IMO. What the man is, is a very experienced mechaneck who has "been there, done that AND has the tee shirt". Cooter, like many here, has offered sage advice for years and hasn't been a sh*t disturber to my knowledge. However he will call BS when its apparent.........like many members here. He is a graduate of the College of Busted Knuckles and knows his business. Please don't discount the man. I've never met him but I do pay attention to what he has to say.  Like they say, "walk the walk before you attempt the talk".

[bull]

Yea, well Cooter's delivery needs a lot of work. There's not doubt he knows his stuff but he could stand to take it down a notch or two with the chest-puffing.

Anyway, there are some instances where you can get decent mileage out of a Charger. The best freeway mpg I got out of my '70 383/auto Charger was 22. But 400 hp is a tall order. I think my 70 probably had around 300 hp and pretty tall gears in the rear end, and the time I got 22 mpg I was maintaining a sustained average speed of 80-90 mph for about 3 hours. Usually though you're not going to get better than about 10-12 around town, maybe up to 15 mpg with a 318. Look at it like you would a late 90s/early 2000s Durango. If you check the mileage on those you're looking at about 12 in town and around 18 on the highway. Of course those things weigh like 5k lbs. but they have the advantage of computer-controlled fuel injection.

[gtx6970]

Loose the idea of a 318 if you want mileage AND power.
25 mpg MIGHT be a  possibility with transmission + rear axle upgrades, but with 400 hp, nope,,, nadda,,,  not going to happen


You need to think about going modern driveline and overdrive transmission, think new Hemi and 46RE trans , or something similar

[xpbprox]

I vote to put the 70's VW turbo diesel in stead of the stroked 318

[jason41987]

i was planning to use a manual transmission with overdrive, and adjust the gearing and final drive to match the engine and what im looking to achieve so yeah, a lot more than the engine are in play here and i was already assuming much of the driveline would have to be upgraded, so if thats what i have to do, im prepared for the worse, hoping for the best

ive actually been thinking about getting a 5.9 or 360 magnum engine from a 90s pickup as well, the engines themselves dont cost that much more.. but i guess im still not over the headaches of bad sensors, check engine lights, and defected ECUs.... if i used one of these newer engines, would i have to use a catalytic converter with them, or since the vehicle itself was made before that requirement would i still be exempt from that?... granted, i could still use one, theyre not all that expensive, and for my exhaust system i was planning to use over the counter universal fit mufflers i can get at any auto parts store to make future repairs easier, and less expensive.. my dad is running one on his dakota with his magnum v8 engine and they seem to work well

whats the difference in fuel economy between a 318, 340, or a newer 5.2/5.9 magnum engine? ive seen both the 5.2 and 5.9s fairly inexpensive floating around here and there

anyway.. im suprised to hear 22mpg highway in a 383, that seems difficult enough in the LA engines so must have been well set up for it.. my dad has a 2000 dakota with a magnum engine and he gets about 25mpg highway with that.. the jeep cherokee i currently have gets even less.. ill give the magnum engine some consideration though.. though i hate sensors going bad, they do have their advantage, if i can find an EFI system with a simplified wiring harness to make it less of a mess to work on, i really might go that route

[jason41987]

i think a 70s vw turbodiesel would get rather poor fuel economy having to move all that extra weight though, and we are speaking about this as a joke i hope, in good conscience i could never put anything besides a dodge/mopar V8 into a charger... then again, i would never add an extra set of doors to one either

[xpbprox]

how about a 5.9 cummins 12v
that would be bad a$$

[jason41987]

nah, has to be gasoline.. i have a science/engineering background and do research and testing of alternative fuel sources... eventually this vehicle will be converted after i have the means to make my own fuel at home... whether its hydrogen or ethanol, the conversion process for either one is very similar but would need to be done to a gasoline engine... this is years away, as long as i can get 20mpg+ ill be fine for now

[Rolling_Thunder]

the fact you want to stick with something that came in a 1969 is your downfall. You want the performance of a modern car using 40 year old technology. If it was possible they would have done it back then.     I had a stock 318 auto 68 Charger with a 2.76...    The best mileage I ever got was 19mpg on the highway. Making a whopping 230hp (stock rating) - It was reliable but needed constant tinkering (carb gasket, ballast resistor, fuel leak, etc.) but was very reliable for a 40 year old car.  When I dropped in 3.55 gears the mileage went down to approx 15mpg on the highway...      

Honestly, If you're looking for around 400hp and 25mpg you're looking at fuel injection and overdrive.

If you weren't dead set on a older LA engine I would highly recommend a newer engine transplant - You can get close to your goal with even a 5.7L hemi with very little drama. Makes the drivetrain reliable, serviceable, and these engines have a ton of aftermarket support. A EFI 5.2L would be my second suggestion - it uses the LA architecture but has EFI already.

If you're looking for a manual transmission with Overdrive you can do a factory OD 4-speed (least desireable but bolt in) -or- a Tremec 5-speed, Richmond 5-speed, T-56 six speed...    downside is these all need a certain level of modification to install.  

You will not need to use Catalytic Converters if you install a newer engine - the smog requirements to by the car - so since it is a 1968-1970 it is exempt from smog requirements as it did not have cats to begin with. If you're a tree hugger you can always add them ?

I managed 27 mpg highway with a 440 six pack in a 1970 Superbird with a factory OD 4-speed and a 3.54 Dana rear...       I hope to get about the same in my Charger when done...     hoping for 25mpg and approx 500hp...

[djcarguy]

 :cheers:my 440 dual 4 barrel does not burn gas at all going 75mph  no od and 410 dana and and down hill with the engine shut off,

[jason41987]

if youve read my older posts, ive said i have been considering something like a 5.2 or 5.9 magnum engine since they can be found fairly inexpensive now

[jason41987]

actually, ive just done some shopping around.. turns out that if i look around, i can find a running 5.7L hemi sold for less than $500 usually pulled from a truck... seems with about 300hp in one of those i can get close to 20mpg city.... so ill consider that as well

as stated before, i wanted atleast 20mpg highway with the best horsepower i could get while achieving that while not exceeding 400hp... seems i have a few options here, 5.2/5.9 magnum engine, 318 with low CFM 2 barrel carburator, or a 5.7L hemi, either one of those with a manual transmission with overdrive, taller gear in the rear end and i think i should be good...

as for transmissions go, id consider any manual transmission that will bolt up to whichever engine i decide to use.. i dont really want to be adding any adapter plates, so if i get a 5.7 hemi from some truck i could probably use a tranny from the same make/model as well without problems and the rear end as well.. i guess its all been on the market enough to find these parts sold used and rebuildable

[Rolling_Thunder]

The 5.7 Hemi uses a typical small block bellhousing...     They make bullshousings for pretty much any transmission you can think of now-a-days...     

[bull]

anyway.. im suprised to hear 22mpg highway in a 383, that seems difficult enough in the LA engines so must have been well set up for it.

That mpg was an anomaly and it was the only time it went that high (that I know of). It had a 2.76 rear ratio, a small 4bbl and like I said I was running an average speed of 85 or so behind an empty flatbed truck so it was probably cutting the wind for me. There wasn't any ethanol back then either so they ran better.

[jason41987]

i think in light of the future switch to an alternative fuel source.. weighing the pros and cons of EFI vs carburation, EFI seems to have more adjustability and customizability vs carburation.. sure carburators are easier to tune, but fuel injection has a greater extent of how they can be tuned... and with a programmable, adjustable ECM/ECU it would make it easier to test these alternative fuel sources in different air/fuel mixtures, timing, etc.. and the conversion to either hydrogen or ethanol is fairly similar...

hydrogen cannot have any carbon steel from the exhaust manifold on out... best to have it sleeved with stainless steel and stainless valves too... ethanol does well with these but with the additional problem of not being able to use any rubber in contact with the fuel (no rubber gaskets or fuel lines).. both require a relatively high compression...

i guess EFI would be the best way to test these both in the same engine to make a determination of which way to go in the future, and give me pretty decent fuel economy with gasoline as well... and let it be known, none of my motives are tree-huggerish, carbon dioxide in the atmosphere actually helps plants grow faster.. so your gasoline fumes are just making the rainforest grow back faster ;-)... my motives are purely of independance.. but i dont think anyones here too interested in learning about alternative fuel sources (though hydrogen will actually give your engine MORE power if done right)

[Mike DC]

You are being given some good advice here. 

For a long distance frequent driver, I agree with the others that you are putting too much emphasis on mileage and not enough emphasis on the problems inherent in the rest of the car.  These cars are indeed radically simpler than modern vehicles, but the downside of a 40yo car is that the factory never really intended these things to last very long.  The production tolerances of every piece of the car are shit compared to any halfway modern vehicle. 

A lot of guys in this hobby have spent $40,000 on their restoration  . . .  and they still fight electrical gremlins in the components, and they can't keep the cabin watertight in a rainstorm, and the rust is already starting in again at the water collection points, etc.  It's not because the restorers didn't do things right, it's because the factory didn't design the thing well enough.  You could get the whole car reproduced with modern replacement parts and still fight these sorts of "easy" issues. 



I'm not saying these sorts of problems are unresolvable.  Anything is possible with some heavy work and ingenuity thrown at it.  I am just trying to convey that for your final ultimate goal, the major problems aren't going to be all the same ones of a modern vehicle.  I am trying to say that when you've spent half your budget and hundreds of hours of labor on stuff just to make it as driveable as you expected it to be in the first place, then saving that last $2000 on gasoline this year no longer seems like as much of a priority.

Lots of guys get into this hobby trying to make one of these restored cars into a daily (or even just frequent) driver.  Let me tell you, it's a lot more rare to see someone drive one of these cars 5 days a week than see one do a 10-second quarter mile.  It's possible, but you should expect this to be a bigger problem than the extra few miles per gallon that you're after.

[Cooter]

You may not like my delivery, what I have to say may not be what you want to hear, but then again, I've never been one to "Sugar coat" anything..To the point and no apologies. Now, to the "Chess puffing" comment? Bull, Read a few of you posts and figured the same thing but never figured I'd call you out on it.. Since you felt compelled to do this with me, I'll tell you this  ......In your own words to John K, "You don't know me, don't pretend you do"...

Now, with all that BS out the way, the real problem here is people have gotten used to all the newer cars and having their cake and eating it too..While this isn't an unheard of goal or even an undoable goal, I deal in reallity....Gonna take one helluvalotta money to get even close to 350-400 HP and 20 MPG in an older car....You just simply pay for all that in the beginning when you sign on the line and give up your $500/month payment for that new, $40-$60K depending on engine and body style choice, Hemi Ram truck/300/Charger R/T/Challenger/ whatever. And NOBODY seems to remember that the new Hemi's ONLY GET GOOD MPG @ 400HP BECAUSE OF MDS which means are you gonna pay someone over $60K to set up all that computer crap in an older car? Multiple Displacement Select Cylinder kill crap..All this while talking bout a "Budget"? Not gonna happen...I told you not to take it personally as I even see how one could take it wrong, but you,  jason41987, decided to do it anyway(The term "Kid" is just that when used in a sentence like "What's up kid?" "Yo, how 'ya been kid?" Since your age isn't there, I have no idea how old your are, I'm 39 BTW))..Not my fault, yours...AGAIN, Good luck with your goals as it's obvious, you will have an uphill battle not only in time, but money as well...ANYTHING is possible, how much wallet do you have?


It all gets down to this simple goal...
No matter how many times i try to keep people from themselves, they tend to actually need to experience it in order to learn..My mistake, No matter how many times I warn them the trains is a comin'. Can't you feel the rails shakin'? See the smoke a risin'? Hear the whistle a blowin'? Get off the tracks...Some have to get hit by that train to know the train is a comin'...Sure, you got a 500 HP 318 gettin' 20 MPG (Albeit on the highway and not in town, but that's another thread), and it only costs you around $50K to do it, with a mondo supercharger and EFI. Doesn't matter your still tuning on it long after my carb'd 440 gettin' 14 MPG has been on the road and enjoyed for over 4 years. You did it!

[elacruze]

Here's the links to my '68 restification and engine build;

http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,66411.msg915309.html#msg915309

http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,73529.0/all.html

I don't have an exact number, but these projects cost something less than $60k-not an insignificant sum. You can do a lot for a lot less.

My best mileage so far was 14.6 mpg, with 4.10:1 gears, GV overdrive, and horrible ignition timing-didn't have time to get the distributor right before our trip.

FWIW I expect to find 25mpg under the right conditions, with 3.55 axle ratio and corrected ignition timing. That's with a 505" motor.

To get 20mpg and 400 hp, you'll need a lot bigger engine than a 318; I think you could do it with a 360 or 406 smallblock. You'll need EFI and the right drivetrain behind it, and a bunch of time tuning it.

Remember that efficiency equals mileage, and up to a point performance; after that point, performance reverses mileage.

[jason41987]

well ive decided to go with the 5.7 liter hemi... plan on using it as a test bed to some extent for alternative fuels and technologies when ive reached a point where i will be doing this with a car.. until then i do most my experimentation on 4 cycle lawnmower engines, or motorcycle engines... one thing i intend to start dipping into for my own experimentation at first is converting an engine (first a motorcycle engine) to camless operation using solenoids built into the valves to fire them electronically based on the position of the crankshaft determined by the crank position sensor and tunable with a proper ECU... benefits of this is greater fuel efficiency and greater power, and when finished should make a conversion to an alternative fuel source that much more efficient... but first i have to try this out on smaller scale before i do it to my car... so its a ways off

[elacruze]

well ive decided to go with the 5.7 liter hemi... plan on using it as a test bed to some extent for alternative fuels and technologies when ive reached a point where i will be doing this with a car.. until then i do most my experimentation on 4 cycle lawnmower engines, or motorcycle engines... one thing i intend to start dipping into for my own experimentation at first is converting an engine (first a motorcycle engine) to camless operation using solenoids built into the valves to fire them electronically based on the position of the crankshaft determined by the crank position sensor and tunable with a proper ECU... benefits of this is greater fuel efficiency and greater power, and when finished should make a conversion to an alternative fuel source that much more efficient... but first i have to try this out on smaller scale before i do it to my car... so its a ways off

This is not a new idea, and it is not do-able. Sorry.

[jason41987]

thats funny... rather naive, but funny

[elacruze]

thats funny... rather naive, but funny

It's been tried, and it's been made to work in laboratory conditions but not in anything like a usable street engine with any appreciable power.

Unless you can point me to some weird science I haven't heard about I'd say I'm not the naive one.

[jason41987]

there are no usable street engines that use the technology.. thats a fact.. but thats why its called experimentation.. in tests and prototypes it works, and there are issues with it that need to be ironed out.. but thats what the experimentation and testing is all about... and i find problems of mechanical engineering to be fun and interesting to solve, much like some people enjoy a crossword puzzle.. and i do have a background in mechanical engineering so that surely helps

the best way to control the actuators would probably be using an algorithm that uses the location of the crank positioning sensor to determine when and how long to fire each solenoid, pretty close to how distributorless ignitions work.. thats the easy part, making them reliable enough and with some sort of a fail safe... should one actuator fail youd want it to fail in a way that youre not going to smack a piston into a valve or damage the engine which would have a similar effect to breaking a timing belt/chain.. so you really need to find a way for them to fail safely

[Mike DC]

                     
Well, I was only ever trying to convince you that your mileage goals wouldn't be a cost-effective way to cheapen the project in the long run.   But if your mileage goals are part of the point of the project and not just a means to cheapen the whole thing, then I won't try to talk you out of it any further. 

Best of luck on the efficiency pursuits.   There isn't much that hasn't been tried before but it can be fun to play around with the concepts.