Frustration w/ My '73 400

[moparfreak]

Ugh. I don't post much, but I do read a lot. I'm not sure how many of you do it. Getting & keeping these cars running is a chore. I've got 2 young boys (3 and 1) and grad school, and still I've scraped every spare hour and minute I can to get out the garage and get my '73 SE road-worthy. The entire summer has gone by, and I keep feeling like I'm so close, until something else comes up and it takes another few days here, week there, to resolve.

Well, the latest was when I got the 400 running about a month ago, had really bad clashing noise on the power steering pump, as well as a brake pedal that went to the floor. Well, the pump had a bad leak, and I replaced it with one from Advanced Auto, switched the pulley over, as well as bled the brakes. I got a lot of air out of the right rear, the others looked OK.

Just started it up tonight. The brake pedal seems a bit spongy, like I can depress it and it holds, but it doesn't spring back to it's final starting position until 30 seconds or so. Not sure what to do there, or if it's even an issue. I'm inexperienced with this, is that just how old cars behave?

Now onto the real problem: The mechanical clashing noise is still there, and just as bad. True, I fixed a leaky pump, but it was clearly not the culprit. It's quiet until I turn the steering wheel for the first time a few degrees left or right. It's sounds so bad I'm afraid to turn it lock to lock. Once I touch the steering wheel, the mechanical clashing noise pretty much doesn't go away. Is there a problem with my gearbox? Why would it make any noise just sitting there when left alone? What else could be the culprit. It honestly sounds so loud, that I'm wondering how one little steering pump could be the source. Is water pump housing a possible culprit? Where do I start?

In another note, I noticed radiant smoke/heat coming off the engine, as well as coming out of the breather. It probably ran for about 5 minutes. I had topped off coolant before I started it up a month ago, but maybe the coolant hadn't circulated through the block and it ended up being low. I'll top it off again and see if she still starts to overheat.

All of this, b/c I took the 727 and performed a 4 year long full rebuild in my basement, and I still haven't gotten to the point that I can put her in gear and check my work!

Sorry for the rant. Any advice is MUCH appreciated!

Frustrated,
Adam

[Chryco Psycho]

Hey Adam
the brake issue can be linkage binding or a problem in the master cylinder itself
I would start with removing the master & depressing the piston & see if it immedialty comes back if not that is the problem ,, then check & lube the linkage & make sure it is moving easily with the master off the car still .
The noise has to be in the power steering pump , just sitting there the steering box is doing nothing but the pump runs constantly . I would run the steering end to end to bleed out all the air first then if the noise is still there rebuild or replace the pump .
you could havea leak by one of the exhuast manifold studs where the coolant is seeping out & burning off the exhaust manifolds , 5 mins is not enough time to fully heat the engine

[Challenger340]

You say it is quiet, UNTIL you move the steering column a few degrees left or right ?

Some understanding of how the system ACTUALLY works, may assist in diagnostics.....

The pwr strg Pump itself is a positive displacement or PD Pump, therefore it is constantly pumping fluid per rpm.
As rpm goes up it pumps more per revolution obviously, which according to "demand" required by the Steering Box for assist, the rest is immediately dumped back into the Pump Reservoir by a Pressure Relief Valve internal of the Pump.
IF the noise is NON existent without turning the steering column, probably NOT a Pump problem......because the Pump is in fact Pumping and returning even at idle.

On to the "demand" side of the system, which is the Steering Box.
When you turn the steering column ever so slightly,
you are in fact "deflecting" a torsional valve system internal of the steering box, which then supplies fluid pressure from the pump to "whatever" side of the assist Piston in the box, to provide "assist".
(If you sit in the drivers seat, with the Engine off, and move the steering wheel you can actually "feel" the slight springyness prior to the box actually trying to turn the steering wheels.)
Now if THIS,  is WHEN you are encountering your "noise", it is either ONE of TWO areas to investigate.
1.) if the noise is in fact coming from the Pump itself...... the what you have is a Blockage at the Steering Box preventing fluid from routing for assist, a "deadhead", and the Pressure Relief Valve in the Pump is chattering back and forth as it deadheads, opens, deadheads, etc., albeit very fast, usually heard as a "whine" typical of turning the wheel at idle as the pump strains to keep up.
2.) Something in the Steering Box itself is fubar'd, allowing some flow to a mechanical fault or clank ?

Brake problem;
re-bleed ALL Brakes starting furthest from the Master, working your way back to closest, adjust the Rears. Should return fine. 

[moparfreak]

These responses are very helpful, thank you. I did just bleed all 4 corners, but you think it should be bled again? When you mention adjust the rear brakes, what are you referring to? I've never done a brake job. These are drums in the rear, discs in the front.

Yes, the pump is definitely quiet until that very first time I rotate the steering wheel. Then, even after that's done, it'll pretty much squeal/whine from then on. What type of steps can I take to investigate the steering box and check for either blockages or damage? It's hard to describe the sound, but it sounds louder than what that pump could do. It's louder than the engine. I'll take a short clip of it tonight and post. Unfortunately I don't have any Mopar-knowledgeable buddies around, so I am learning as I go.

I'm going to check & top off fluids and try again tonight to see if I can learn anything more about what might be going on.

Thanks,
Adam

[Chryco Psycho]

there is an adjuster in the rear brakes , it is a star wheel on a threaded adjuster , the shoes need to be close to the drum so you do not have excessive travel in the pedal , if the brakes are spongy it may still have air in the system & re-bleeding may help , but the pedal should still return properly to the top immediatly .
The power steering should bypass in the pump when the wheels are not being turned ,do you have assist when turning the wheels ?if so the pump is making pressure & the steering box is not plugged & able to direct the pressure properly

[moparfreak]

It's been a looong time since those brakes have been used or looked at, so I'll check them out, make adjustments and re-bleed just in case.

In regards to the smoke previously coming out through the breather and off the back end of the engine, I'm wondering if that was just a) residue & oil that had collected over the years and was baking off, and b) maybe condensation in the oil that was starting to cook a bit and venting out the breather. As mentioned, it ran for a few minutes last month, then a few minutes this week. It was barely even enough time for the choke on the carb to fully open up.

As far as the steering, I do have assist, so the pump is making pressure (and also, this pump is brand spankin new, btw). The issue is the terrible noise. Am I making a big deal out of nothing? I'm not sure...

I took a brief video from my phone of the startup this evening to illustrate the problem. As soon as it's done uploading to YouTube I'll paste a link here.

Once again, any advice is very very appreciated.

Thanks,
Adam

[moparfreak]

So here's the YouTube link to a clip of what I'm noticing. Apologies for the phone capture. I should have rotated it to get a wide screen. Oh well. So much for that videographer side job...

But anyways, the squealing/whining is more pronounced in person, but you can still easily make it out in the video. Any thoughts? I already replaced the pump once, so I'm not sure what to do next...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t8yJ7uNG47A

Thanks,
Adam

[Challenger340]

I watched your video, either some air still in the system or the Pressure relief is still a bit low, otherwise pretty normal.

Using ATF ?

try going "stop to stop" the next few times you drive it to bleed out air bubbles, it will eventually shutup.

[moparfreak]

Challenger340, that is pretty interesting. I just showed the video to a co-worker (he's a camaro guy, but that's OK) who used to work in a shop, and his first comment was that noise sounded hydraulic, like there was a bunch of air in the system, just like you mentioned. He suggested pulling the cap off and seeing if the fluid is foamy. The hydraulic fluid I'm using is standard PS stuff from the local auto parts store.

The story is, the original PS pump that I had on it as recent as a month ago had an oil seal leak that eventually ran completely dry over the course of several years. So when I fired this bad boy back up for the first time in August, it actually started up without any PS fluid in it. Then, once I heard the noise, I saw the bone-dry pump and filled up right away, but there was definitely a few mins that the thing was just circulating w/ air only. Maybe it'll just take a while to get all that air back out of the system??

To be honest, if that was the fix, that would be almost too easy....

Next is to put the rear end up on blocks and do a brake job & re-bleed.

Thanks,
Adam

[moparfreak]

I tried running the steering wheel lock to lock a few times, made sure the fluid was topped off. The noise seems awful and don't seem normal to me. Here's the most recent clip:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VpkCcz_MWBI

I've tried it a couple more times, and the noise has seemed to lessen a little bit, but not by much.

The engine is overheating. I keep checking the coolant overflow reservoir to make sure it's at the 1-qt level while running, and it seems that each time I fill it back to that level, the fluid gets sucked back up. I did a closer inspection and found a coolant leak by the bottom return hose where it's clamped to the radiator. Have a hard time believing this to be the source of losing quarts' worth of fluid, but I'll let it cool down, pop the radiator cap, refill and then see if she still overheats.

About where on the stock temperature gauge should the engine settle out to? I'm assuming ~180-190 degrees, but I'm not sure where that is exactly on the gauge. Right now, once it has a couple minutes, it starts climbing and I'll shut it off once it gets to 2/3rds.

Oil pressure is a bit high on the gauge. I do know that it's about 1 qt overfull. You think this is a problem?

Any thoughts on any of this? I had planned to drive it out and see how it ran, but the pump noise and overheating is still keeping me garage-bound.

Thanks,
Adam

[nvrbdn]

is the radiator heating up also, or just the motor block? you do not want to be a quart over on the oil. one of my favorite tools is an automotive stethescope. really helps diagnosing noise problems. 

[moparfreak]

One thought that I had, is it possible the belt is tensioned to tightly? When I installed, I just tried to set the bracket so it was snug, but what do I know? Is there a procedure for tensioning the belt properly? Maybe it's loading the bearing & causing it to whine?

I was thinking of putting the front end up and try bleeding it more without the load on the tires, and see what happens this weekend.

Any tips on bleeding the PS? Should I run it with the cap off?

Thanks,
Adam

[Chryco Psycho]

just fill it up , run the wheels end to end With the cap on , check the fluid level , let it sit to allow the oil to release the air / foam

[moparfreak]

So, spent a little bit of time today on the Charger:

1) For the life of me, I don't know where all the coolant went. This is what happens when you tear apart a car and it doesn't drive for a decade, gets transported from place to place. You can't even see where the leaks are. Anyways, coolant was low, I filled it up, and that seemed to take care of the overheating (DUH).

2) Put the front end up on jackstands, and ran the wheel lock-to-lock many times (probably 25 or so), and no squealing or groaning. I heard just a slight touch of it with the wheel all the way turned to the right, and the engine started to strain. Must have been drawing a lot of load at that point.

3) Fluid looks good & clear, no metal shavings that I could see.

4) Oil pressure is high, it's overfilled about a quart. I've got to drain some.

5) Small drip at the coolant return hose, I'll cinch up on the clamp, but pick up a new hose just in case.

6) Small drip at the pump. It's so slight, that I can't tell where it's weeping from. If it's the oil seal or body seal, I'll be pissed, b/c it's a brand new pump. I'm hoping it's weeping from the return hose line or something small like that.

7) Brake pedal is still a bit spongy, doesn't return to start quick enough. I bled the brakes and a lot came out of the right rears before, so I'll do it a second time and see if there's still air in there.

Thanks all for the advice. Hopefully I've bled enough of the air out of the fluid to make it road-worthy. We had 70s and 80s this week, but the Wisconsin winters are approaching fast, I'm running out of time...I'll cycle it through a couple more times, then drop it back down to the ground and see how it sounds.

Thanks,
Adam

[FLG]

Running it hard lock to the left or right will cause it to groan, if your good in between than i wouldnt worry.

As for the brakes, if all the air is out id go look at the master cylinder as the next culprit. How did you bleed the air out? Pump the pedal, have someone open the bleeder..etc?? A lot of times on older master cylinders they build up a ridge on the inside where the seal is, when you go to bleed it by pressing the pedal while someone opens a bleeder screw the seal now passes over that ridge (instead of normally stopping) and you now develop issues. Also it could just be the fact that its old, id replace the master cylinder regardless....stopping is more important than going.

[moparfreak]

My wife is a willing partner, but she's busy w/ our two young boys most of the time, so I'm running solo on this, so I use a Motive PowerBleeder that works well to bleed the system by myself. There's just barely enough clearance to fit the sealing plate onto the master cylinder reservoir. So, no pumping the brake for me. The master cylinder is somewhat old and is on my bucket list to replace. I just want to get this thing running and enjoy it for a couple years. We plan to move next year to be closer to family. Once I set up a garage, the teardown can begin anew....In the meantime, I'm itching to drive old Mopar iron.

Thanks,
Adam

[moparfreak]

An update on the PS pump noise, it seems that it was in fact cavitation, and once I put the front wheels up, the pump was silent, even when cycling the wheel back and forth. I went lock-to-lock probably about 25 times to make sure I got all the air out. Today I put the car back down, and even under load when turning the wheels, I had no noticable pump noise. Good news.

In another thread, I introduce a new problem, trans related. I had rebuilt the 727, and although it felt like I was engaged for D, 1st & 2nd, other than an initial lurch forward, the car didn't want to budge. I'm wondering if this could be brake related?

I'm running out of time to get it functional on the road before winter hits...

Thanks,
Adam