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Creed guitarist is one of us

Started by Ghoste, October 15, 2011, 12:09:58 PM

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Danny Gutierrez

Quote from: Cooter on October 15, 2011, 11:52:44 PM
Quote from: bill440rt on October 15, 2011, 09:51:49 PM
Quote from: Ghoste on October 15, 2011, 03:32:21 PM

Okay.  Let me rephrase- the photos depict a red car.

Ghoste, that is the Nov '11 issue. The red '68 is owned by a girl named Annee. According to the article she still owns the Charger, however also bought a 'Cuda off Tremonti in which Ferro will build as a resto-mod/Pro Touring car. Tremonti has always wanted a '68 Charger, so he in turn bought the green '68 from Ferro.

Which now brings us to the Dec '11 issue, which has a write up on the green '68 and Tremonti's plans for it. It is a true time capsule, being preserved mostly in storage all it's life. Plans are now to paint it black, install a crate Hemi, black leather interior, aftermarket A/C, modern sound system, wheels/tires, etc.

Quote from: Cooter on October 15, 2011, 06:33:53 PM
That "Survivor" Charger ain't worth d*ck IMO with a "lowly" 318. Not gonna bring the huge bucks a true "Survivor" car would bring that has a "pedigree".
Why did he use a "Survivor" car? Very simple.....IT'S A RUST FREE CAR that he doesn't have to sink stupid money in to have a cool car.


Why does this post not surprise me?  :smilielol: :smilielol:
I guess some people get it, others are completely clueless.

The point is the plans with this car could have been done to ANY "rust free car". There are plenty to choose from. Why pick this one, an unmolested time capsule??
A car is original only ONCE. That's what makes it so valuable, 318 or not.
:Twocents:


And it doesn't surprize me that your an anal retentive, Purist that thinks his ideas are law and anyone that disagrees is "Clueless". Bottom line? This 318 car you so love for it's "Time capsuleness"? Gone and cut up for a Hemi. Deal with it.

Amen Brother. Amen.
1969 Dodge Charger, second owner.  The first owner was my Dad.

b5blue

  We all agree, it's YOUR car to do what you want. The entire point is "value", ever watch Antiques Roadshow? No amount of money can make original, you ether have it or not. Everyone is considering these cars now at a mere 40 something years of age, add another 50 to that and estimate value. That's a point where this car would shine had it survived. Posting negative remarks to those who see this aspect and voice it, the loosing of something that can not be replaced, on a forum dedicated to their survival and restoration is kinda out of place.
  No one has insulted him for his plans, only commented we as a collective loose something that can never be replaced. He may not even realize what he's doing in the long run or even ever care. The "value" is not just the reflection of money but rareness. The number of true survivors of any cars over 40 must be very small.       

Ghoste

I know someone who collects survivors and then "spruces" them up because they don't look good.  To me, this is sad and regrettable.  None of them are 318 cars, he does it to high dollar stuff.
If I had a 318 survivor, unless it was perfect, I would be all over altering it into my car.  Even if it were a family heirloom, although I might think twice in that case.
Mostly I just thought it was cool seeing a 68 Charger on a magazine cover. :-\

b5blue

  My car, a true bastard, was my friends first car ever. He was certain it was a 383 car but my code checking came up with 318. (He was using 69 code.) Anyway the 440 in there now along with all the running gear came from who knows where at this point. Knowing it's history, even knowing the guy he bought it from is part of the fun. The small dent in the front bumper from popping a 67 GTO in the ass leaving a drive in movie one night, my friends helping me find a replacement for the badly rusted hood with a six pack scoop riveted on in the correct original color. Then finding a good deal on a six pack to replace the TM-7 high rise so I could close the replacement hood. Having the same machinist re-rebuild my block and on and on I have 16 years with it and 35 years of history with my friends. I like it "warts and all". 

BananaDan

Quote from: Cooter on October 15, 2011, 06:33:53 PM
That "Survivor" Charger ain't worth d*ck IMO with a "lowly" 318. Not gonna bring the huge bucks a true "Survivor" car would bring that has a "pedigree".
Why did he use a "Survivor" car? Very simple.....IT'S A RUST FREE CAR that he doesn't have to sink stupid money in to have a cool car.

No pedigree1?  Did you read the article2?  This car has every piece of paper going back to her first diaper change.  Check Merriam-Webster's definition of pedigree, #3b: the recorded purity of breed of an individual or strain.  Regarding opinions, what they say is true, they are like a$$holes.  My opinion, this car deserves a wash, polish and wax and a ride to a museum.  It should be a preserved time capsule and would be a treasure to our hobby to have such an example to refer to as a golden standard.  Saying a car is worthless because it doesn't have a big block is plain ignorance3 in its truest form.


Cootnotes:
1. http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/pedigree
2. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rhetorical_question
3. http://www.learnersdictionary.com/search/ignorance
*This post brought to you by Carl's Jr.®*



Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds. The mediocre mind is incapable of understanding the man who refuses to bow blindly to conventional prejudices and chooses instead to express his opinions courageously and honestly.  ~A. Einstein

bill440rt

Ghoste, my apologies if this thread turned ugly. Didn't mean to hi-jack, just wanted to point out the Tremonti did not own that red '68 as initially thought. Yes, it WAS cool to see a '68 on the cover!!  :2thumbs:

I applaud Tremonti for finally getting the car of his dreams. Anyone who has wanted one of these cars & finally getting to own/drive one can relate to that feeling.

The whole idea of my initial reply was to point out that a pristine survivor Charger will have it's intangible value erased by transforming it into "just another modified car". Further, MCG who prides themselves on "waving the flag" sort of speak on survivor cars and those that are unique do not question this move one bit. Whereas, in the past they have questioned others for altering survivor vehicles into something they are not.

"Sinking stupid money" into it is not looking at the big picture. This is gonna be a "checkbook" build: Tremonti is having Totally Auto build them the car. A repaint, Hemi, modern upgrades, etc WILL cost a lot of money no matter how you slice it especially if you're going to just cut a check & sit back & wait for it.
That was my whole point that this build could have been done to any Charger. His car, his money. Our hobby, our loss.

Quote from: Cooter on October 15, 2011, 11:52:44 PM
And it doesn't surprize me that your an anal retentive,

100%, guilty as charged!!  :smilielol:
Actually, I pride myself in it. I consider it one of my stronger traits. So, thank you for the compliment.  :cheers: :2thumbs:

Quote from: Cooter on October 15, 2011, 11:52:44 PM
Purist

Hardly. Actually, it really depends on the car.
To borrow a phrase from b5blue, two of my Chargers are both bastard cars. I built 'em the way I wanted 'em. However, they were far from pristine to begin with. If they were nice survivors, I would surely have thought twice. You can't question me for having that mindset.

Quote from: Cooter on October 15, 2011, 11:52:44 PM
thinks his ideas are law and anyone that disagrees is "Clueless".

You obviously don't know me very well, nor do I have to prove anything to you.
I welcome new ideas with open arms. I visit here daily just to see if there is something new I can learn. I've openly stated in threads before what my favorite thing is about this forum: everyone on here is helpful to everyone else. If you are unable to see things in a different aspect, well that's your problem.

http://www.learnersdictionary.com/search/clueless#
"Strive for perfection in everything. Take the best that exists and make it better. If it doesn't exist, create it. Accept nothing nearly right or good enough." Sir Henry Rolls Royce

Ghoste

Hey man, you don't owe me any apologies.  I have to be as guilty as anyone on here or worse for hijacking threads and frolicking in the ugly.   :lol:

Cooter

Quote from: BananaDan on October 16, 2011, 10:19:00 AM


No pedigree1?  Did you read the article2?  This car has every piece of paper going back to her first diaper change.  Check Merriam-Webster's definition of pedigree, #3b: the recorded purity of breed of an individual or strain.  Regarding opinions, what they say is true, they are like a$$holes.  My opinion, this car deserves a wash, polish and wax and a ride to a museum.  It should be a preserved time capsule and would be a treasure to our hobby to have such an example to refer to as a golden standard.  Saying a car is worthless because it doesn't have a big block is plain ignorance3 in its truest form.


Cootnotes:
1. http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/pedigree
2. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rhetorical_question
3. http://www.learnersdictionary.com/search/ignorance

Dan, You and I have had our little "tiff" and to be frank, I never said any 318 Charger was "Worthless". All I said was it ain't worth dick compared to a 440 car with a true pedigree. If you refuse to believe that a 440 Charger is worth more than a 318 Charger, I don't care how pefect of a time capsule it is, then I believe you are the perfect definition of Ignorant. I'm a reallist. I deal in what is real, not what I want it to be. Bottom line? This 318 Charger got cut up just like many more will be, and no matter how many say it's wrong or whatever, it will continue to happen. Bill asked WHY? i answered..He and you alike, didn't like the facts, so here I am replying to yet another post that IMO is "Worthless".
" I have spent thousands of dollars and countless hours researching what works and what doesn't and I'm willing to share"

Cooter

Quote from: bill440rt on October 16, 2011, 09:07:46 PM
Ghoste, my apologies if this thread turned ugly. Didn't mean to hi-jack, just wanted to point out the Tremonti did not own that red '68 as initially thought. Yes, it WAS cool to see a '68 on the cover!!  :2thumbs:

I applaud Tremonti for finally getting the car of his dreams. Anyone who has wanted one of these cars & finally getting to own/drive one can relate to that feeling.

The whole idea of my initial reply was to point out that a pristine survivor Charger will have it's intangible value erased by transforming it into "just another modified car". Further, MCG who prides themselves on "waving the flag" sort of speak on survivor cars and those that are unique do not question this move one bit. Whereas, in the past they have questioned others for altering survivor vehicles into something they are not.

"Sinking stupid money" into it is not looking at the big picture. This is gonna be a "checkbook" build: Tremonti is having Totally Auto build them the car. A repaint, Hemi, modern upgrades, etc WILL cost a lot of money no matter how you slice it especially if you're going to just cut a check & sit back & wait for it.
That was my whole point that this build could have been done to any Charger. His car, his money. Our hobby, our loss.

Quote from: Cooter on October 15, 2011, 11:52:44 PM
And it doesn't surprize me that your an anal retentive,

100%, guilty as charged!!  :smilielol:
Actually, I pride myself in it. I consider it one of my stronger traits. So, thank you for the compliment.  :cheers: :2thumbs:Again, you would recieve a comment like that as a compliment.

Quote from: Cooter on October 15, 2011, 11:52:44 PM
Purist

Hardly. Actually, it really depends on the car.I call BS. Talking about a 318 Charger i don't care how original, will NEVER be worth ($) what a True BB car is with a pedigree. A "Flash in the pan", one time sale doesn't count. until ALL base model 318 Charger's sell for more than a 440+6 or Hemi Charger would sell for, you are dreaming and this reply has no merit.
To borrow a phrase from b5blue, two of my Chargers are both bastard cars. I built 'em the way I wanted 'em. However, they were far from pristine to begin with. If they were nice survivors, I would surely have thought twice. You can't question me for having that mindset.Again, He stated he'd have to THINK TWICE..This means IMO, he'd try to sell said cars for "Survivor" money only to find out they might be worth more in modded form today. People want cars they can DRIVE, not look at go on and off a trailer. Again, I call Bullsh*t..

Quote from: Cooter on October 15, 2011, 11:52:44 PM
thinks his ideas are law and anyone that disagrees is "Clueless".

You obviously don't know me very well, nor do I have to prove anything to you. I never said you had anything to prove to me. I do know you and your types. When confronted face to face, toe to toe, you are like your posts, a bunch of words. I answered your question with MY OPINION, and you didn't like it..
I welcome new ideas with open arms. I visit here daily just to see if there is something new I can learn. I've openly stated in threads before what my favorite thing is about this forum: everyone on here is helpful to everyone else. If you are unable to see things in a different aspect, well that's your problem.I answered your question with reallity, as I deal in Reallity. Obviously, you are living in a dream world if you think a pristine, all original 318 car is gonna be kept that way for posterity's sake...Again, I call Bullsh*t. It's gonna get cut up like it or not. If you cannot face reallity, then I suggest you stay in your little bubble of the world. Afterall, it's a dog eat dog world out here, ain't no room for no pussy cats.



" I have spent thousands of dollars and countless hours researching what works and what doesn't and I'm willing to share"

1cuda

when peter framptom toured australia in about 1998 he accidently saw my 440-6 cuda on display at a chrysler auto show and tried to buy it-he is a mopar guy and said he prefers b bodies.  also ex ozzy osbourne guitarist jake e lee said in a guitar world magazine he likes big block mopars-if he actually has one i don`t know but i`d say yes he would.
all the best
frank

Black Charger

I think it's a shame that a pristine survivor is getting modified into just another HEMI clone, but it's not my car or my money being spent, so hopefully Tremonti cherishes his dream car forever.

Cooter

I give you a perfect example....BEFORE the Rat Rod Craze hit, I hadda friend who's father had a 1929 Ford sedan.
Tried and Tried to get "Stupid" money at the time ($12K)  Running, with crazy pieces like Wooden wheels and/or the like.

Finally sold it after like 3 years for $4500.00...80 plus years old...Know what happened to this "Survivor"  that was all original?

Got cut up for a Street Rod with SB Chevy, A/C, Overdrive auto, big stupid wheels, and candy paint. Heard it sold last year at the good guys for over $30K...
" I have spent thousands of dollars and countless hours researching what works and what doesn't and I'm willing to share"

A383Wing

I bet he lost money on that...probably cost him more to cut up the car and install all that stuff in it

Ghoste

I bet he did too.  I see a lot more people make money on unbutchered cars at auctions by far than people with street rods.  Your mileage may vary.

F8-4life

I didn't read the this whole thread, but I just went over the mcg article about the green '68 and it is sad.. I mean how do you think the og owner would feel. Kinda like a smack in the face I would think.

XS29L9Bxxxxxx

Quote from: F8-4life on October 20, 2011, 01:15:38 PM
I didn't read the this whole thread, but I just went over the mcg article about the green '68 and it is sad.. I mean how do you think the og owner would feel. Kinda like a smack in the face I would think.

Probably gave her a heart attack  :popcrn:

Black Charger

Quote from: F8-4life on October 20, 2011, 01:15:38 PM
I didn't read the this whole thread, but I just went over the mcg article about the green '68 and it is sad.. I mean how do you think the og owner would feel. Kinda like a smack in the face I would think.

I am certain that the lady who sold it thought that the car would be preserved and kept as is, as her husband meticulously maintained it. If enough situations like this keep happening, you will see fewer and fewer original (or longtime) owners of classic cars willing to part with them. in the article it said that Tremonti is enjoying the car as-is for the time being. Hopefully, he changes his mind and finds another Charger to build his dream car out of.

69rtse4spd

I wonder if that is what Dave told the old lady (will keep it just the way it is), but you know what they say, money talks & bullshit walks.  :Twocents:. That is one reason I bought a 70 non matching numbers car to play with. The other two are to original to mess with, I hope he dose change his mind. Oh well to each his own.

69 OUR/TEA

I will have to add my  :Twocents:,and did'nt even read or see the car and article.Everybody has a different thought process,that is without argument,where some like modified cars,some like stock restos,etc,etc,etc.But it sounds like in this case something very valuble is quickly being stripped away from a car,and I don't mean $$$$$$ value,but the  heritage value of being around for 42 years being painstakingly cared for,and preserved,regardless 318 or not.Someone loved that car enough to do so.There are thousands of restored cars,modified cars,restomods,and on,but truth is you can build/restore a car over and over,but they are only original once.
I,myself have great appreciation for cars like that,and will stop,look,take pictures,and compliment the owner even if it does'nt have spark plugs sticking out of the valve covers or have a bubble that shakes thru the hood.I don't care if a cars value is $5K or $500k,I can appreciate them all for whatever special characteristic they display,rare model,color combo,engine,or in this situation,a survivor.
Also,in this situation,as said by others,why not get another car to do it to,even if it needed some rust attention,sounds like the guy that is having it built is not someone going to struggle for  the build cost.
NTM,after the erection wears off he'd probably throw it in the corner,or roll it accross the stage at BJ  or Mecum.

nelson_audet

Quote from: bill440rt on October 15, 2011, 02:40:06 PM
Quote from: Ghoste on October 15, 2011, 01:15:38 PM
I took a quick look online but so far the November issue of MCG is the only place Ive seen it.
It's red.


Ummm... no. I read the article, just got the issue a few days ago.
What it states, is that he bought the '68 from Dave Ferro of Totally Auto. Dave found the car in '09, bought it off the original owner's wife, a little old lady from PA. It is a green 318 car, and a low mileage, unmolested survivor.
I know the saying, "it's my car, my money", but what is going to happen to this car will totally erase it's history. The car will be repainted black, have a Hemi installed, modern upgrades, etc. A nice survivor, in what appears to be beautiful condition, will have it's history erased.

What baffles me is that MCG usually prides themselves on preserving survivor cars, leaving things alone, retaining history, etc etc. Yet they applaud what is going to happen of this car.
"Only a 318 car" some may say. Look around under the survivor tents, you'll see plenty of plain jane small block cars. This one is no exception. Original paint, chrome, interior, underhood/engine compartment, etc. It will become yet just another modified car.

I sincerely hope Mark rethinks his plans with this car. His plans could be done to ANY Charger out there. Why pick an unmolested, unrestored, pristine survivor car???  :brickwall: :brickwall: :rotz:

X2

I love this article until i start to read the last page.... for me survivor car with complete history is verry important..
69 Charger RT 440 4 SPD 4.10 Dana car B5 blue

68neverlate

Quote from: bill440rt on October 15, 2011, 09:51:49 PM
A car is original only ONCE. That's what makes it so valuable, 318 or not.
:Twocents:

After reading this thread I find myself off the fence.  I've never really considered myself leaning one way or the other until now. 

I understand some people's perspective about making $$$$ and following choices that maximize the money a car might fetch, but value isn't just about the almighty dollar.  Authenticity and originality are things money cannot reinstate.  A car is only original once, and when there are as few "survivors" out there as there are these days, they should be preserved for future generations to enjoy.  Much in the same way as endangered species... 

Make room for me in the "preserve this survivor camp".  There are other Chargers out there that would make just as good a choice for restomod projects without sacrificing a survivor.  You could even argue there are better candidates out there (R/T) for this particular restomod if a Hemi is the planned powerplant...       :Twocents: 

Cooter

Quote from: 68neverlate on October 27, 2011, 03:33:47 PM
Quote from: bill440rt on October 15, 2011, 09:51:49 PM
A car is original only ONCE. That's what makes it so valuable, 318 or not.
:Twocents:

.  A car is only original once, and when there are as few "survivors" out there as there are these days, they should be preserved for future generations to enjoy.   

 

Sadly, as I've tried to explain here, all you are gonna see when these cars are "preserved" for future generations to enjoy is all these 318 "Survivor" Chargers cut up like the all original Model A's and T's are today..Preserved all that time, True Orignals, "Survivors", for a future generation to cut up into a rat rod...
" I have spent thousands of dollars and countless hours researching what works and what doesn't and I'm willing to share"

68neverlate

Possibly... but maybe not either.  I guess it all depends on if the person buying it in the future feels like you... or like me.     :shruggy:     At least, if not anything more, the choice will have been preserved.  And who knows, in another 40 years, that 318 survivor might fetch more $$$ in the open market than any 440 or Hemi restomod ever made.  And if that happens, I don't think there's any doubt what choice that future owner will make...   :Twocents:

BananaDan

Quote from: Cooter on October 27, 2011, 05:56:46 PM
Sadly, as I've tried to explain here, all you are gonna see when these cars are "preserved" for future generations to enjoy is all these 318 "Survivor" Chargers cut up like the all original Model A's and T's are today..Preserved all that time, True Orignals, "Survivors", for a future generation to cut up into a rat rod...

Or...someone one day 50 years down the road might want a car in its original condition, not to cut it up and turn it into something it isn't.  Thankfully, some of these 'crazy' people have preserved Model A's and T's in their original condition so people in our current day can appreciate the importance of automotive history.  The point the rest of us are trying to make to you is not everyone wants a chopped up "rat rod" of a Charger as you put it.  If that is what someone wants, there are other ways to get it without destroying something that has been extremely well preserved for decades.  The same goes for people that want to build model A/T hotrods, they can buy an aftermarket frame and chassis and not hack up an original 100 year old Ford.
*This post brought to you by Carl's Jr.®*



Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds. The mediocre mind is incapable of understanding the man who refuses to bow blindly to conventional prejudices and chooses instead to express his opinions courageously and honestly.  ~A. Einstein

bill440rt

Quote from: BananaDan on October 27, 2011, 06:30:56 PM
Quote from: Cooter on October 27, 2011, 05:56:46 PM
Sadly, as I've tried to explain here, all you are gonna see when these cars are "preserved" for future generations to enjoy is all these 318 "Survivor" Chargers cut up like the all original Model A's and T's are today..Preserved all that time, True Orignals, "Survivors", for a future generation to cut up into a rat rod...

Or...someone one day 50 years down the road might want a car in its original condition, not to cut it up and turn it into something it isn't.  Thankfully, some of these 'crazy' people have preserved Model A's and T's in their original condition so people in our current day can appreciate the importance of automotive history.  The point the rest of us are trying to make to you is not everyone wants a chopped up "rat rod" of a Charger as you put it.  If that is what someone wants, there are other ways to get it without destroying something that has been extremely well preserved for decades.  The same goes for people that want to build model A/T hotrods, they can buy an aftermarket frame and chassis and not hack up an original 100 year old Ford.


Alas, sometimes the obvious is often overlooked.  :rotz:
"Strive for perfection in everything. Take the best that exists and make it better. If it doesn't exist, create it. Accept nothing nearly right or good enough." Sir Henry Rolls Royce