Re: Selling my Daytona is "underway", guess who was the first to call on it...

[xs29j8Bullitt]

That wrinkle in the floor will come out.   It's a matter of reversing direction and sequence.    Last damage in is first damage out.    The structural panels pretty much need to stay together while the corrective pulls are being made.  The old panels are sacrificial so you can get the remaining unibody back into spec.    Most shops today are familiar with drive on racks that do a single pull, or maybe a double pull.    Multiple pulling will simplfy the process.    Think of if you could grab it with multiple hands.    The attached photo is an extreme example of multiple pulls!

Doug, if I am understanding you correctly, I need to take the car basically as is (maybe take the seats out) to a shop with a "multi-puller" to get the wrinkle in the floor and possibly other unseen damage (bowing, warpage, etc) out before placing the uni-body in a jig to replace the front frame section & sheetmetal, substructure... correct?

Any facility to recommend in the Dallas - Fort Worth area... or certification standard to look for... approximate cost?

Thanks for your input Doug!!!   

[tan top]

more good intresting pictures !!      

That wrinkle in the floor will come out.   It's a matter of reversing direction and sequence.    Last damage in is first damage out.    The structural panels pretty much need to stay together while the corrective pulls are being made.  The old panels are sacrificial so you can get the remaining unibody back into spec.    Most shops today are familiar with drive on racks that do a single pull, or maybe a double pull.    Multiple pulling will simplfy the process.    Think of if you could grab it with multiple hands.    The attached photo is an extreme example of multiple pulls!

was going to suggest  the same !! get it bolted down on a frame rack & pull in back into alignment or as best as it  can be !! before cutting anything off/out !!  what are the gaps like at the back edge of the door to front of quarter panel gap !!

[xs29j8Bullitt]

more good intresting pictures !!     

That wrinkle in the floor will come out.   It's a matter of reversing direction and sequence.    Last damage in is first damage out.    The structural panels pretty much need to stay together while the corrective pulls are being made.  The old panels are sacrificial so you can get the remaining unibody back into spec.    Most shops today are familiar with drive on racks that do a single pull, or maybe a double pull.    Multiple pulling will simplfy the process.    Think of if you could grab it with multiple hands.    The attached photo is an extreme example of multiple pulls!

was going to suggest  the same !! get it bolted down on a frame rack & pull in back into alignment or as best as it be !! before cutting anything off/out !!  what are the gaps like at the back edge of the door to front of quarter panel gap !!

Gaps are not too bad... I will get better pics later...

[tan top]

   that rear of the  door to quarter gap looks good starts to taper a little  towards the bottom   ,  but  thats 100% better than mine were & mine had never been in a wreck & had  all of its assembly line panels  still  fitted !    the gaps on mine  were crap !! seen another unrestored charger with the same SPD as mine ! & what do you know gaps were bad/ crap on that too almost a mirror image   must of been a bad  day at hamtramck body shop  
are they the same ish both sides !!  do the doors catch anywhere on opening , at the  vent window frame , door latch etc
see green arrow  , look a little tight    but hard to tell from that picture !!
was the wind shield in the car when you got it ?  if so can you remember if it was set in the gasket correctly  or had it been popped out or cracked  

[xs29j8Bullitt]

  that rear of the  door to quarter gap looks good starts to taper a little  towards the bottom   ,  but  thats 100% better than mine were & mine had never been in a wreck & had  all of its assembly line panels  still  fitted !    the gaps on mine  were crap !! seen another unrestored charger with the same SPD as mine ! & what do you know gaps were bad/ crap on that too almost a mirror image   must of been a bad at hamtramck body shop  
are they the same ish both sides !!  do the doors catch anywhere on opening , at the  vent window frame , door latch etc
see green arrow  , look a little tight    but hard to tell from that picture !!
was the wind shield in the car when you got it ?  if so can you remember if it was set in the gasket correctly  or had it been popped out or cracked   

The pics on the trailer are from right after I bought the car.  The windshield was apparently popped/broken out during the collision...  I believe the gaps are similar on the passenger side.  Both doors open and close fairly well, but the drivers door takes more effort than it should... seems like latch alignment is off.  I will take more pictures soon, but passenger side pics may have to wait until better access...

[xs29j8Bullitt]

Well... Where will this tangent off to next?!?...  My Daytona was sold new at a smaller dealership, so photos and information on the dealer has been hard to find.  Sooooo...  earlier today I discover the owner's name is different than I had gotten from a car forum posting about the dealer.... What?!?... Internet information can be incorrect?!?     I also discover the newspaper archive's optical character reader apparently cannot read the heavily stylized dealer name in their logo, so I begin searching with the dealer's address... finding almost 100 display Ads on NewspaperArchive.Com...  

Now for the tangent........  Trying to find more material about the long closed dealership, I do searches with the dealership owner's name.   Nothing really related come of the searches, but the searches do show him to still be alive, at the young age of 89 years old.   So, do I have the nerve to call someone 89 yo about a business they owned decades ago and ask for photos and other material & info?              Why YES, ... I do... and did!

He answered the phone on the second ring and had a clear strong voice... a good sign since I was prepared to quickly end the call if the recipient sounded frail... or bothered by the call.  He sounded neither, but seemed a little perplexed about the purpose of the call.  We talked for a fairly lengthy period of time, and he believes that he only has a few photos and some other amount of dealership related material in storage.  He said that he could have a look and let me know what he could find.   I replied that I would appreciate that, but told him that I thought that was too much trouble to put him through.  He responded that it would be no real hardship for him... adding that he needed to go through the material anyway to throw most of it away.    I quickly said NO, please don't throw it away, I'll pay to have it shipped to me.  He did not respond to my suggestion, but said to call him back in 3-4 weeks to see what he might have found by then...

I will certainly call him again, but will also mail him a package of material to show him more clearly what I intend to do with the material if he ships it to me.  Oh, he did remember the Daytona, and said it took a long time to sell... not what I had thought was the case...

More on our conversation(s) in later postings... he has some strong feelings about Chrysler's business practices!  

[nascarxx29]

Thats a good starting point.I only found closed up pictures of some TX dealers

[nascarxx29]

The only Ad I have is for 1966 and no later.From Grand Prairie News Texan

[tan top]

  good dectective work Allen    awesome stuff 

[hemi68charger]

He answered the phone on the second ring and had a clear strong voice... a good sign since I was prepared to quickly end the call if the recipient sounded frail... or bothered by the call.  He sounded neither, but seemed a little perplexed about the purpose of the call.  We talked for a fairly lengthy period of time, and he believes that he only has a few photos and some other amount of dealership related material in storage.  He said that he could have a look and let me know what he could find.   I replied that I would appreciate that, but told him that I thought that was too much trouble to put him through.  He responded that it would be no real hardship for him... adding that he needed to go through the material anyway to throw most of it away.    I quickly said NO, please don't throw it away, I'll pay to have it shipped to me.  He did not respond to my suggestion, but said to call him back in 3-4 weeks to see what he might have found by then...

In a British accent: "Brilliant"

[xs29j8Bullitt]

He answered the phone on the second ring and had a clear strong voice... a good sign since I was prepared to quickly end the call if the recipient sounded frail... or bothered by the call.  He sounded neither, but seemed a little perplexed about the purpose of the call.  We talked for a fairly lengthy period of time, and he believes that he only has a few photos and some other amount of dealership related material in storage.  He said that he could have a look and let me know what he could find.   I replied that I would appreciate that, but told him that I thought that was too much trouble to put him through.  He responded that it would be no real hardship for him... adding that he needed to go through the material anyway to throw most of it away.    I quickly said NO, please don't throw it away, I'll pay to have it shipped to me.  He did not respond to my suggestion, but said to call him back in 3-4 weeks to see what he might have found by then...

In a British accent: "Brilliant"

I am sending the gentleman a letter with some photos of the Daytona and the dealer info that I have found so far.  Also sending photoshopped images showing how the material would be used... like the altered image below.   I hope that he decides to provide some material...

[xs29j8Bullitt]

Here is where I am at on front end sheetmetal... A friend knew of a 1969 Charger that was being "restored" at a local body shop when they discovered that the front sheetmetal was not correct for a 1969... after the car was painted!      They replaced the sheetmetal, and this front end sat in a corner getting dusty for several years... it was a good buy at $550, the hood an fenders are in great shape!  These 1970 parts will be modded into Daytona parts if original parts cannot be purchased.

Last pic shows an original Daytona driver's side fender that I recently bought from a friend who has been very helpful with Charger & Aero Car parts!  Knowing that I needed the fender, he basically offered to give it to me for free... but after a discussion with Doug S., I paid the price he suggested for a friend-to-friend sale... $1500.  A great buy now-a-days IMO...

Took a step closer today to having almost all original Daytona parts for the restoration...   bought a package deal of Superbird/Daytona parts, including R&L headlight buckets, R&L headlight doors, extra h/l door with a chunk missing, a single headlight pivot assembly (still need one more), R&L Superbird valance corners, Superbird grille frame, R&L Superbird parking light frames, Superbird latch tray, extra S/B latch tray made from aluminum (homemade or reproduction?), extra h/l bucket end plate, and an assortment non Aero car parts...

[Davtona]

Impressive pile of parts Allen. Good score. 

[moparstuart]

Nice score allen

[xs29j8Bullitt]

Impressive pile of parts Allen. Good score. 

Thanks, but I just discovered that one of the headlight doors appears to be a reproduction part... probably a replacement for the damaged one? 

[CornDogsCharger]

I don't know how I missed this topic until now but I figured I'd post on it.  I know you're putting the car back to it's original red but I kinda like the blueish/gray? color.  Would look good on another car.  Anyways, about the repairs.... being in the body shop business, this is what I would do.  I would de-trim pretty much everything on the front-half of the car... dash assembly, glass, and all other interior components that might get in the way... you're gonna take them out anyways.  But definitely leave the doors on and leave the rear end under the car... this will make loading and unloading the car from the frame rack a lot easier.  As mentioned before, you want want to make all of your pulls before the first piece it cut off.  The floor damage will come out easy.  That is a good sign of the frame rail being drove upwards.  Pull it down and forward and it will come out.  The firewall of the other hand will be a little more work to repair.  This looks like damage from the engine/trans hitting it.  It will take a lot of work but it could be repaired.  About 2 months ago I repaired the firewall on a true L89 '68 Camaro RS/SS after it centered a tree.  The 396 was shoved back into the firewall but I was able to save it.  With the Daytona being a unibody car, and other panels will need replacing (frame rails, inner aprons, radiator support), I would actually find a non-A/C '69 donor b-body shell and put it in at the windshield post and where the frame rails and torsion bar crossmember join.  To avoid a bunch of cutting and trimming, I would install the hinge post from the donor car with the rest of the front section.  I am going to have to do this same repair on my WB General Lee since they  the front of the car off.  Anyways, I'll be watching the resto... can't wait to see it take shape!

Justin
"CornDog"

[xs29j8Bullitt]

As far as the Structure goes, Id like to see what Doug S. has for input. He is a frame and unibody tech by trade if I dont have my wires crossed... 

Allen, how much damage is there to the actual firewall?   Looks like there are some extra holes in it? 

Obviously the aprons are damaged and will be replaced.    Once you do your rough pulls and the now sacrificial aprons are removed, how much damage is there to the firewall and frame rails?   I assume they can be worked and saved as original components.   If the rail has hard kinks bent a certain amount of degrees, we then think about replacing it.   

Your plan for a jig and fixtures as we discussed on the phone a while back is a good one.    If you were going to replace the entire rails, I would want to go back all the way as you have highlighted in red on the frame diagram.  I can only see so much from the pics.  But in any event, I would replace only what truly needs replacing.   A talented metal man can work wonders.    It's only metal, and metal has memory.

That wrinkle in the floor will come out.   It's a matter of reversing direction and sequence.    Last damage in is first damage out.    The structural panels pretty much need to stay together while the corrective pulls are being made.  The old panels are sacrificial so you can get the remaining unibody back into spec.    Most shops today are familiar with drive on racks that do a single pull, or maybe a double pull.    Multiple pulling will simplfy the process.    Think of if you could grab it with multiple hands.    The attached photo is an extreme example of multiple pulls!

I don't know how I missed this topic until now but I figured I'd post on it.  I know you're putting the car back to it's original red but I kinda like the blueish/gray? color.  Would look good on another car.  Anyways, about the repairs.... being in the body shop business, this is what I would do.  I would de-trim pretty much everything on the front-half of the car... dash assembly, glass, and all other interior components that might get in the way... you're gonna take them out anyways.  But definitely leave the doors on and leave the rear end under the car... this will make loading and unloading the car from the frame rack a lot easier.  As mentioned before, you want want to make all of your pulls before the first piece it cut off.  The floor damage will come out easy.  That is a good sign of the frame rail being drove upwards.  Pull it down and forward and it will come out.  The firewall of the other hand will be a little more work to repair.  This looks like damage from the engine/trans hitting it.  It will take a lot of work but it could be repaired.  About 2 months ago I repaired the firewall on a true L89 '68 Camaro RS/SS after it centered a tree.  The 396 was shoved back into the firewall but I was able to save it.  With the Daytona being a unibody car, and other panels will need replacing (frame rails, inner aprons, radiator support), I would actually find a non-A/C '69 donor b-body shell and put it in at the windshield post and where the frame rails and torsion bar crossmember join.  To avoid a bunch of cutting and trimming, I would install the hinge post from the donor car with the rest of the front section.  I am going to have to do this same repair on my WB General Lee since they  the front of the car off.  Anyways, I'll be watching the resto... can't wait to see it take shape!

Justin
"CornDog"

I am reconsidering the method that will be used to repair the Daytona...  For the last 20+ years the plan has been the replacement of the front sub-frame from the transmission cross-member on forward, as I showed in an earlier post.  My goal is an entirely undetectable repair, as well as a within spec structure that does not "crab" going down the road.   I absolutely do not want repair doublers on the side of the bent frame after they are pulled back into shape.

Doug, Justin, Brian, other knowledgeable body & frame techs --- Recommendations, comments will be appreciated.   Any known high quality frame repair shops with the required multi-pull setups like Doug mentioned in or near Dallas/Fort Worth?...Texas?...neighboring state?...elsewhere in the US?

Also, leads on the remaining original Daytona parts needed would be appreciated... headlight pivot, headlight door, latch tray, passenger side fender, hood.........  please email me at:   xs29j8@charter.net

[Aero426]

Doing it the way Justin is describing will lead to an undetectable repair.     There will be no band-aids needed. 

[xs29j8Bullitt]

Doing it the way Justin is describing will lead to an undetectable repair.     There will be no band-aids needed.  

Other than pulling the frame first and saving the front floorboard, the repair Justin describes seems to replace the entire front sub-frames like I originally planned... or am I misunderstanding his proposal?

With the Daytona being a unibody car, and other panels will need replacing (frame rails, inner aprons, radiator support), I would actually find a non-A/C '69 donor b-body shell and put it in at the windshield post and where the frame rails and torsion bar crossmember join.  To avoid a bunch of cutting and trimming, I would install the hinge post from the donor car with the rest of the front section.

[Aero426]

Yes, and also plan for the torsion bar x-member as part of that.   The replacement parts will all remain intact as one assembly.   

[tan top]

 

[xs29j8Bullitt]

Yes, and also plan for the torsion bar x-member as part of that.   The replacement parts will all remain intact as one assembly.   

In my original plan I left the torsion bar cross-member in place to maintain the structural integrity & alignment of the uni-body & critical locations of members like the rocker beams.  I guess the shape could be maintained if enough hard points were supported...

Any recommendations for a frame repair facility with all the required talent and equipment?  Close to north Texas would be preferred, but all mainland US locations considered.... Also, any WAG of the Uni-body repair cost, labor & shop materials only... I would provide the donor parts.

[Aero426]

The only shop I know that uses fixtures like we discussed is Muscle Car Restorations in Chippewa Falls Wisconsin.   They use a Blackhawk dedicated bench and dedicated fixtures they have modified especially to fit a B-body.   This is a Cadillac system for heavy unibody repair.   It is the method of how the cars were built at the factory.   This is also how the factory bodies were modified at Nichels for racing.    It's the perfect way to repair your car.  

I think MCR would be cost prohibitive to do your whole car, but it may be worth investigating to farm out the unibody repair.   Whether they would undertake a partial is also a question.   Certainly, there are other technicians who could repair your car without fixtures.  Fixtures make the job easier, but are not a substitute for a top technician.  

[Aero426]

When you blow a car apart like this, the fixtures maintain length, width and height throughout the entire body.

[xs29j8Bullitt]

Scored a Carter AVS 4618SA carb for the Daytona for $90 including shipping...  The carb was on eBay with a starting bid of $79... no bids...