backfire with truck... Im at a loss with the dealership!

[resq302]

What would you do? The dealership where I purchased my used 2007 F150 Lariat 4x4 Super Crew 5.4l V-8 cab from has now had my truck over 2 weeks and claim to have fixed it now three times since I brought it to them back in Sept. The truck has a bad misfire/backfire out the exhaust when you floor the truck and the engine is cold, not up to normal operating temp. After the truck warms up, the backfiring is not present. It only does it when cold. There are no codes and no check engine light on. Dealership replaced a cam sensor on the pass side and now replaced the mass air flow sensor since they said it was "bad". I took the mechanic for a drive with it yesterday and showed him that it was still doing it. His response was that "well, I did fix it. Before it was backfiring and falling flat on its face power wise. Now it has more power than it did before." My reply was...."Yes, but it is still backfiring! Plus there is still not the power there that it had prior to all this happening!"

This all started back on Sept. 12 when I dropped the truck off for the same symptom. The ended up replacing a coil pack after doing a compression power balance and also replace that one spark plug. I questioned why they did not replace all the spark plugs like you do when you do a tune up and they said that Ford would not cover that, they would only cover the plug that was bad. I thought this was a load of BS, but not knowing fact, I went along with it. After I had the truck for about 3 days, the engine started doing the same thing which is why it went back to them. The earliest they could get me in there was Monday, Sept. 26 because of my work schedule. They have had my truck since then. The only good thing is that I have had a courtesy car since then.

The truck has 49,000 miles on it and is still covered under the basic power train warranty (5 yrs, 60,000) plus I have an Extended Service Plan warranty that covers over 500 things. Now, they said that the cam sensor was covered under the power train warranty but the mass air flow sensor was not and that I had to pay the $100 deductible. To me, something that controls the air/fuel ratio should be part of the power train.

What would you do? Contact the Service Manager since I seem to be getting no where with the service advisor and mechanic? Go above their head and contact Ford directly and let them know the BS that they have been putting me through?

[Chryco Psycho]

I usually start with the regional mgr & work back down to dealer level obviously they do not have a clue what they are doing but then the real question why would you EVER buy a Furd in the first place ?

[resq302]

Neil, I thought we were through that.  ha ha  I went over to the dark side after I had all the issues with my 2005 Hemi Ram Quad Cab 1500 series.  Between the back up lights blowing fuses constantly for an unknown/unfound reason, blowing 4 power steering pumps, broken right front shock, broken seat spring in the pass side seat back, arcing spark plug wires, and a whole laundry list of other issues.  Not to mention the fact that I creased the fender when I leaned on it to wash the center part of my hood.  Little ol me, 180 lbs, creased the fender.  Towing was a whole nother issue.  If I hit a series of bumps, the truck was all over the road.  The F150 seems to be built a lot better and is a lot sturdier than what the Ram was in my opinion.  Now, maybe they came a long way in the 6 years since I had it but up till recently, the Ford has been good to me.  Now I think that whatever is wrong with my truck is something that the mechanic did.  It was fine prior to them installing the new lifters (well, except for the knocking noise it was making) but I would have thought that they knew what they were doing.

[moparstuart]

 Sound like you just have lots of issues   

[Chryco Psycho]

I have not had a Dodge 1/2 ton for decades now , but the 3/4 & 1 ton are tough trucks .
The parts related to the drivetrain should be covered as part of the drivetrain but as you know they will do anything not to pay to repair their junk ! Once you go above their heads it is usually a lot better , I have seen warranty cover stuff after the warranty has run out for example just on good will .

[Cooter]

One thing I will NEVER do is Send my steak back......

And this is why I will NOT buy a newer vehicle...Work on 'em long enough and you begin to realize that they are ALL big, Fat, Turds...
My 'ol '84 Subaru has over 500K on it and it backfires, rattles, knocks, ticks, squeeks, burns gas and oil, leaks everything including water when it rains, still gets over 35 MPG on the highway and cost me $400.00 7 years ago...

Good luck with the Ford..I guess now would be a good time to tell you bout The F-150 V8's and TWO PIECE spark plugs that cost usually around $500.00 to replace and dig out with special tool..Yeah, Ford musta rehired the offspring of the gent that designed the Edsel....

[resq302]

Oh, Im well aware of the issues with the two piece spark plug.  they have since come out with a redesigned one piece but still a crappy set up in my opinion.  Not to mention the issues with the cam phasers going bad and destroying an engine.

[Stretch]

It sounds like they have the ignition system pretty well covered.

It sounds like a fuel pressure at WOT. Those trucks use a fuel system with no return line. The have a fuel pump control module on the drivers rear frame rail. The back of the module corroads away alwoing moisture in. The moisture shorts out the circuit board. As the truck/module warms up the moisture evaporates alowiing it to run "better". Eventualy it wont run at all.

If you remove the module from it's mounting brackit you will know right away if corrosion is the problem. There will be a ton of white powder between the module and the bracket and most likly a hole in the module. They most always smell like burnt electrical when bad too.

Just my 2 cents. Good luck

Jason

[resq302]

stretch,

What you are saying makes sense.  Funny thing is that these problems only developed AFTER they changed out the lifters.  Could it be coincidence?  Possibly.  However, when I changed my oil when I got the truck back from them after they did the lifter swap, I had a lot of metal flake in my oil.  I have never had that prior to them working on the motor.  I thought it might be just stuff wearing and breaking in but it still doesn't leave a good feeling in my gut.  Almost like they didn't put some assembly lube on it.

Either way I want it fixed as it still has the power train warranty (5 years / 60,000 miles) currently at 49,000 miles and I have the Extended Service Plan through Ford (their extended warranty) up to 75,000 miles that covers over 500 parts.

[Stretch]

Well that changes everything. I missed the part about the lifter change.

[68neverlate]

I'm no expert in this area, but it sure sounds to me like it's related to that lifter job... especially if you found shavings in the oil right after the work was done.  Something doesn't smell right there...   

[Stretch]

it sure sounds to me like it's related to that lifter job... especially if you found shavings in the oil right after the work was done.  Something doesn't smell right there...   

yep

[stripedelete]

The good thing is your at the selling dealer and t sounds like your wrap around agreement is covering the sensor, however, there is a deductable.

The first thing I would do is be persistent,  but give them more time.  Chances are this problem has just been given to the wrong tech.

At this point going to Ford won't help.  They will simply contact the Service Manager and ask for him to resolve it. 
So, just contact the service manager directly.

If no resolution call the Ford 800 #.  They will open a case, contact the service manager and require resolution.
Doesn't mean you'll get it - but an open case doesn't help CSI.

After more time,  try to find the direct number to the local zone rep.  It's not as easy as it used to be and the dealership will not give it out, but.......  Explain the situation and ask if there is a diagnostic-guru-tech in another dealership which the selling dealer can "sublet" this repair to.  The zone rep would have to arrange this.  It would be dealer to dealer - not just dropping you off at another dealership.   However, be prepared for the zone rep's first action to be sending you back to dealership's service manager.   

I am more than a few a years away from the back end of a dealership and I may be stating the obvious, but, that's what I'd do. 

[mikepmcs]

I'm no expert in this area, but it sure sounds to me like it's related to that lifter job... especially if you found shavings in the oil right after the work was done.  Something doesn't smell right there...   

Last thing fixed, first thing broken.

[chgr500]

From the decripition of your concern with your truck I believe you have the early symptons of a catalytic converter failure.  Lack of power and backfiring are common symptons when cold...This could be due to the possible ignition problem they were previously diagnosing...the unburned fuel can gather in the converter.  Once the converter lights up it burns some of the built up crud on the cataylist bed it starts to flow better.  You can't monitor this sympton on a scan tool as the truck needs to be at operating temperature before the values are available to look at.....and it won't trigger the check engine light.   Good luck with your 5.4 and do frequent oil changes with the recommended oil and OEM filter


Ron...Canadian FORD tech...for too long lol

[resq302]

Well, I called the dealership yesterday to find out if they had a chance to work on my truck since "we won't get to it today" was the answer I received from the advisor when I was there taking the mechanic out for the drive.  Yesterday, the service advisor said the mechanic took it out for a ride with someone else who was looking at the computer and it miraculously did not backfire.  (Does anyone else smell the odor of crap brewing?)  I argued how could it when the thing did the exact same thing when the mechanic was out for a drive with me the day prior.  The service advisor said they were going to let it sit again overnight and that he personally was going to do a test drive in it this morning (Sat).  Well, I was at a local car show today and low and behold my cell phone rings....... its the service advisor.  Seems that when he took it out for a drive, it did the backfiring but "the more he drove it, the less it had the problem".  Amazing, that is what I have been telling them.  When the truck warms up, the problem goes away!!!!!!!   Obviously I am not making this crap up!  His response was that they don't know what is wrong but will start looking into the problem and to keep the loaner car for now and they will be in touch with me when they know something.

On a side note- CHGR500 - I use the 5w-20 which is the recommended oil and only use the Motorcraft oil filter.  Oil is changed religiously at 3000 miles.

[ACUDANUT]

I usually start with the regional mgr & work back down to dealer level obviously they do not have a clue what they are doing but then the real question why would you EVER buy a Furd in the first place ?

Chryco, Have you seen the threads that are full of complaints about Ram trucks. ?
Ps, why do you live in Panama ?

[resq302]

Acudanut-

I guess you missed it.  Neil pulled the trigger and got married and moved down to Panama.

[Chryco Psycho]

Why do I live in Panama ??
Well I can make more $$ here + less taxation , the winter is marginally shorter LOL
the quality of life is better ,the food is far better , 10 min walk to the pacific ocean !
Everything is better except  the car scene is less though !
The economy here is strong growing around 10% / year & , there is labor shortage , especially skilled labor .
I know all new trucks have problems , the ford I drove last winter for work was junk , in the first 18,000 miles all of which i put on the trans lost 3rd gear , the transfer case quit shifting into 4x4 , I almost got stuck in the bush miles from anywhere & could not get out of the valley I was in on either side ! The radio went intermittent shutting off for about 1 second every 10 seconds , Ford had never heard of the problem even though all 3 of the trucks we had did it .The Power steering failed completely which was not so bad but for a while it to was intermittent & put me in the ditch twice when it locked up unexpectedly , The defrost system was useless , even after running for an hour I was scraping frost of the inside so I could see to drive . The best part was the milage , it took 18 lt to drive 52 KM or 4 Can Gallons to go 30 miles & would optomistically sugget you could get 400 miles on a 120 lt tank , but if you drove 75 miles you lost 100 mile range . Thankfully I was not paying for the fuel !!

[ACUDANUT]

resq302:
Why are you " flooring the truck when the engine is cold " . ??

 Chryco, what year of Ford was this, that you were talking about. ?
Can you go onto the US Army Base in Panama and buy stuff ?

[resq302]

Acudanut-

Well, I am not actually flooring it when cold.  Its not like I start up the engine then try and lay a patch with it.  This happens after I pull out of the dealership after driving around 3/4 of the building from where the service dept is and then try to get onto an extremely busy highway.  Cars are going about 65-70 mph and I don't feel like getting into an accident so I pull out after I have plenty of space and just try to get up to speed as quickly as I can to keep with the flow of traffic.  In reality, it is probably only floored through the first to second gear shift, probably not much more than that.

[ACUDANUT]

  Gottcha.  I hope they figure it out.

[Chryco Psycho]

THE Truck I was driving was a 2011 3/4 ton SD with a gas 6.3 L

[FLG]

Assuming its  not due to the lifter job....

Im going to say a cat issue or  combination  of an EGR/Cat issue 

Maybe intake manifold leak from the previous job?

Just a guess.

[resq302]

LATEST UPDATE FROM DEALERSHIP:

just talked to ford, supposedly, the backfiring was caused by a spark plug that had a "hairline crack" and that they replaced all 8 of the spark plugs yet they are not covered under any kind of warranty. However, when they replaced a coil pack about a month ago, they also replaced the spark plug which WAS covered under warranty...... im confused!  They are going to do a test drive after it sits all night to see if the backfiring is still there. 

To me, if it was a spark plug that had a hairline crack, it would do it warm and cold, but what do I know?  Im just the customer.  Gut feeling is that I am still not buying the fact that it was the problem and it is fixed.

[moparstuart]

LATEST UPDATE FROM DEALERSHIP:

just talked to ford, supposedly, the backfiring was caused by a spark plug that had a "hairline crack" and that they replaced all 8 of the spark plugs yet they are not covered under any kind of warranty. However, when they replaced a coil pack about a month ago, they also replaced the spark plug which WAS covered under warranty...... im confused!  They are going to do a test drive after it sits all night to see if the backfiring is still there. 

To me, if it was a spark plug that had a hairline crack, it would do it warm and cold, but what do I know?  Im just the customer.  Gut feeling is that I am still not buying the fact that it was the problem and it is fixed.

sounds like they are repairing your car by throwing replacement parts at it instead of diagnosing the right in the thing first place .      

[resq302]

Problem is if this is not the fix then I am really going to be pissed and call FORD cause they have now said twice that they have talked to FORD and determined that this was the problem.  So either I am being lied to my face or someone has no clue what is going on!

[moparstuart]

Problem is if this is not the fix then I am really going to be pissed and call FORD cause they have now said twice that they have talked to FORD and determined that this was the problem.  So either I am being lied to my face or someone has no clue what is going on!

The hunt and peck guessing what is the problem is , shouldnt be happening at a New ford dealership .

[resq302]

not when there is no engine codes showing up and they "mechanics" have no clue what the problem is.

[daveco]

I have to agree with Stewart, it sounds like they are throwing parts at it hoping that you will just go away. Intermittent or cold start only problems are time consuming to diagnose properly, and when the tech is not making any money on the job it's going to be real hard to keep him interested.
Your only hope is that they accidentally get it right or maybe the regional tech rep can use your truck for a diagnosis seminar.

[Stretch]

I'd pitch a bitch and ask why in the hell I have to pay for 16 spark plugs in 30 days. I'd also tell them if there going to replace the plugs again they better not put the 2 piece motorcraft plugs in it. Tell them you want the one piece champion plugs. If your going to pay again you might as well get what you want. The two piece plugs come apart and leave a sleave in the head. Makes for a pricy plug job. The champions dont come apart when removing them.

[resq302]

I am well aware of the upgraded one piece design now.  I actually think that motorcraft has also changed the plug.  Just to clarify, I have not paid for ANY of the plugs yet.  Initially, they only replaced the one plug that was bad in the one cyl that had the bad coil pack.  They did NOT replace all 8 the first time because Ford "would only authorize and warranty the plug that was defective" even though the spark plugs should be replaced as a set.  Now that all 8 spark plugs "need to be replaced" they are saying that they are not covered under warranty since spark plugs are not part of any warranty (yet they covered that one initially).  Now the service advisor told me yesterday that the dealership was going to cover the spark plugs.  The last time they told me they were going to cover a foam gasket for the air filter, they did, however, they charged me labor for the install.  All I know is that they better not try and charge me labor for the plug install, especially if they had any broken ones coming out.  I did not authorize them to do that.  They only work that they were "authorized" to perform was stuff that was covered under the basic power train warranty OR stuff that was covered under my extended warranty where my deductible is $100.  I have no issues with getting "loud" inside the dealership or in the show room.

[Stretch]

I bet they try and charge the labor. I'm sure the mechanic works flat rate.

[resq302]

let them try.  I didn't authorize it.  They had very concise instructions and so far, they have botched that up.  Example- mechanic replaces the MAF sensor and now claims the truck does not fall on its face when floored and the eng. temp is cold.  Of course it doesn't do it now, matter of fact, it NEVER did that!  Oh, by the way, jack wagon, the backfiring is still there so you didn't fix it still!  Maybe next time I will write up the stuff in spanish so Carlos the mechanic can understand what the problem is!  I know I am just ranting but I am just so freakin annoyed with this whole situation, I wish it was a brake issue so when I pulled it back to the dealership, it would go through the showroom and I could get out and say, "Nice job guys!"  The brakes work fine!"     at least that new mustang shelby convert. was there to stop me.

[resq302]

stupid question, but am I legally responsible to have to pay for any services that I did NOT authorize?

[ACUDANUT]

 Tell them yea, it's works great...Then say I want to trade it in, for the price I paid. Give or take a couple of grand.

[resq302]

I doubt I would be able to find anything that year or newer with the mileage or price range that I can afford.  Also, Ive only owned it since last June/July so I still have a hefty pay off on it.  Plus the accessories I put into it... I'd be losing money.

[stripedelete]

Please clarify.  Did you notice the backfire the first time you pulled out of the dealership after picking the vehicle up right after the lifter work?  Or did you first notice it on on your normal morning commute? 

[resq302]

noticed it a day after I had the truck back.  So, it was running fine when I picked it up (which the engine could have been warm, I really didn't think at the time to check the eng. temp gauge) and then started doing the same problem again.  The earliest they could take my truck in was when I got it back in there about 3 weeks ago now and they said just go easy on the truck and if it starts making the noise stop the truck.

[resq302]

well, I got the truck back.  It did not seem to have the backfiring last night although I could not really test it since the roads were wet and I didn't want the back end of the truck sliding around.  Also, they did not give me a work order as to what work was performed.  Since I picked up the truck after the service dept. was closed, the cashier said that since there was no charge, I wouldn't get a work order.  Another load of BS.  How and I to know what was replaced and what wasn;t?  Im placing a call to them this morning as I want some kind of paperwork saying what was done!

[stripedelete]

well, I got the truck back.  It did not seem to have the backfiring last night although I could not really test it since the roads were wet and I didn't want the back end of the truck sliding around.  Also, they did not give me a work order as to what work was performed.  Since I picked up the truck after the service dept. was closed, the cashier said that since there was no charge, I wouldn't get a work order.  Another load of BS.  How and I to know what was replaced and what wasn;t?  Im placing a call to them this morning as I want some kind of paperwork saying what was done!

If it is fixed, no charge, and they gave you a free loaner, consider leaving it alone.  Keep your powder dry.  You may really need some good will from them someday.

[ACUDANUT]

 On the other hand, they could at least tell you what the problem was, and how they fixed it.

[moparstuart]

 get the work order you need for your records what was replaced 

[resq302]

get the work order you need for your records what was replaced 

That was my point Stuart.  How if something fails down the road from what they did am I going to know exactly what was done.    But when I called them today, they said it would be mailed to me but they had to "figure out" what to put on the work order first.  Figure out??  Didn't they fix or work on the truck or at least know what the mechanic was doing to it?  Something just doesn't sound right.  Are they trying to cover something up and get Ford to pay for it making it look like it was something that was covered under warranty when it was really something that they caused?  Is it just me or is anyone else thing something is fishy?

[moparstuart]

get the work order you need for your records what was replaced  

That was my point Stuart.  How if something fails down the road from what they did am I going to know exactly what was done.    But when I called them today, they said it would be mailed to me but they had to "figure out" what to put on the work order first.  Figure out??  Didn't they fix or work on the truck or at least know what the mechanic was doing to it?  Something just doesn't sound right.  Are they trying to cover something up and get Ford to pay for it making it look like it was something that was covered under warranty when it was really something that they caused?  Is it just me or is anyone else thing something is fishy?

the tech did the work , they know exactly what he did , they should not have to think about it  

[stripedelete]

get the work order you need for your records what was replaced 

That was my point Stuart.  How if something fails down the road from what they did am I going to know exactly what was done.    But when I called them today, they said it would be mailed to me but they had to "figure out" what to put on the work order first.  Figure out??  Didn't they fix or work on the truck or at least know what the mechanic was doing to it?  Something just doesn't sound right.  Are they trying to cover something up and get Ford to pay for it making it look like it was something that was covered under warranty when it was really something that they caused?  Is it just me or is anyone else thing something is fishy?

Yes

[gtx6970]

From a techs point of view.

He may have well over diag time in it that ford did/or will auth to cover. It's not all that uncommon for a dealer to  'make things up' so to speak in order for the tech to get all his time out of it.

As an example
Ford authorized 4 hours, But the tech hit this 4 hour mark and it's not repaired, and then it become an obsession to fix it or die trying. so once it's all said and done he has, lets say 8 hours in it. Theres 4 hours he should be compensated for, yes or no ?

And for the ones who keep saying they should diagnose it right from the beginning, (And trust me, it's rarely as simple as some customers seem to think it is) needs to put that techs pair of paints on for a week and see how life in an automotve service dept really is. It WILL give you whole new respect for mechanics.

And yes, I'm well aware of the parts hangers and theives in the field . But theres 10 good for 1 bad tech

[ACUDANUT]

 Well said GTX, I have been on that side before.
However, "On the other hand, they could at least tell you what the problem was, and how they fixed it."

[stripedelete]

From a techs point of view.

He may have well over diag time in it that ford did/or will auth to cover. It's not all that uncommon for a dealer to  'make things up' so to speak in order for the tech to get all his time out of it.

As an example
Ford authorized 4 hours, But the tech hit this 4 hour mark and it's not repaired, and then it become an obsession to fix it or die trying. so once it's all said and done he has, lets say 8 hours in it. Theres 4 hours he should be compensated for, yes or no ?

And for the ones who keep saying they should diagnose it right from the beginning, (And trust me, it's rarely as simple as some customers seem to think it is) needs to put that techs pair of paints on for a week and see how life in an automotve service dept really is. It WILL give you whole new respect for mechanics.

And yes, I'm well aware of the parts hangers and theives in the field . But theres 10 good for 1 bad tech

Exactly.  When they're finsihed with that WRO it will have to be a work-of-art to get half of what they are into that job paid.  It will probably be boarderline fraud (against FoMoCo). However,  it will have all, of the parts and labor operations that were used on your truck (and maybe a couple more), but it may not resemble the same Condition Cause Remedy scenerio that actually occurred.  But you will be covered.  

They put you in a loaner and stuck with it instead of giving you the broom.  Let'em up for air.  If it is fixed go back in a couple of weeks and get a copy. Remember, it will always be attached to your VIN in Ford's system.

They're not trying to screw you, this one just had "hair".    

(I just hope it's really fixed.)

[resq302]

This is my thing.... if you removed the coil packs to replace every one of the spark plugs like they said they did, wouldn't there be a fresh or clean / shiny area part on the rusty bolt that held the coil pack in if they had to remove the bolt and then put it back in?  I know on painted parts, you get a tool mark where the paint is or used to be from the tool chipping or wearing the paint away.  I guess I lost faith in them after the whole "I fixed it cause its not falling flat on its face" comment from the mechanic when that was never an issue with my truck.  Now Im just worried that they are going to say that there are parts in there that aren't or that they did not put parts in that are actually there trying to cover something else up.  Maybe I am just paranoid?   

[ACUDANUT]

 I think your just being alittle paranoid, and remember it did not cost you a thing..You also had a free loaner car.
BE HAPPY. 

[resq302]

Actually, if you want to get technical, they charged me $100 (my extended warranty deductible) for the MAF sensor which was NOT the problem even though they claim they were watching cylinders fall out on the computer and it supposedly did not do it AFTER they put the new one in.  Yet, the backfiring was still there so obviously, that was not the problem and I got hosed $100.