Sooooo... What was the purpose of fender scoops...? ***VOTE in added Poll***

[Ghoste]

Yeah, from that pic you would think there would be an issue with the other tire rubbing on the inside more than top but it would still be interesting to see.

[Aero426]

Also, remember that the first thing the RF would contact is the bottom of the hood bracing, or the inside vertical edge of the fender.

[Ghoste]

Yes, thats what I mean.

[Hemi Runner]

I read all 8 pages of this and I have only one question...... what was the original purpose of these?

[ACUDANUT]

It allows the HOT temperatures to escape, generated from the tires that moving at VERY high speeds. 150-200 mph

[xs29j8Bullitt]

It's baaaaaaaaaaaack...   I was reminded of this thread by another current thread... then amazed to see it reappear... hopefully the tone of this thread will remain civil...

Good picture Doug... 

[odcics2]

Original documentation states 3% less drag. John Pointer authored it.
So, that's a given.

Of course, the air escaping /being pulled out by forward motion would be hot, therefore aiding cooling flow into the nose.

It would be nice to get an original '69 or '70 race wing car into a wind tunnel and run all the flow tests!   

[xs29j8Bullitt]

It would be nice to get an original '69 or '70 race wing car into a wind tunnel and run all the flow tests!   

From reply #92... who else is willing to chip in...? 

so, is this going to come down to a show me and then only believable......start a chip in to get the funds, pick a car and go to the tunnel and if you can get some of the old engineers there even better.

Sounds like a good meet activity.......lol

I am actively seeking sponsorship for such an endeavor.     

I'll chip in $100...

[mauve66]

this is easy to find out with those fancy suction cup cameras they have now

put one right down into the rear edge of the scoop and take the car down the road, even if its not street legal it'll only take 4 mins to get up to speed and back down and back into your garage/trailer/ by using highway exit ramps for the return

you'll be gone before the cops ever show up, they can't arrest you 'cause someone said you did it, that's hearsay, they have to have proof............ those videos on you tube later in the afternoon are obviously fakes..............

and the thing about air going into the scoop??? oh lord, velcro some string to the inside of the fender and scoop and see which way it goes at speed

[odcics2]

Count me in for $100. too.
Has to be vintage race car without the inner fenders.
Keep in mind Daytonas were designed to race on a track.  If Nascar didn't have the "build 500" rule in place, it's highly unlikely they would have gone to the trouble of building any street versions.

[C5X DAYTONA]

It's not what we think.  Hindsight is 20/20.    It's what the Chrysler Engineers thought...    You have to get into their heads at that time.  We could do all the test in the world.  It doesn't matter.   I personally like the thought of venting my front tires and brakes during hot laps road racing.  BUT.  It would not change what they say the (original) purpose was.   Great thing is the engineers have spoken.    Tire clearance insurance on the RF.  Aesthetics on the LF.     Now John Pointer might of thought different and he was the man to first pen the Daytona.  But then his first drawing has guess what??   No Extractors.      Now there is this comment from John Pointer to GK.    Is it possible the engineers told John to make some room there and John made it look like an extractor?  Have to ask them.    Would be interesting.   Now if they said Oh yea,  I forgot about that, even after I have been asked this question a 1000 times...            There was a definite Extractor only (unless they only needed room on the middle top of the fender) on the Mule at a later point.  The Chrysler Engineers do joke that Ford called them vents and so did we.   Get it?   I am not saying that stories never sway from what actually happened...    I'm still lost at why some want to test a Daytona?    Party was over on the finished product.    They were modifying a modified Charger...   you have to start at A and get to Z.  Not start off at Z...      Why are we posting pictures of Wing cars on short tracks?           They had Talladega and downforce on the brain..  

[C5X DAYTONA]

Quote from Joe Machado to Gary Romburg in Huntsville AL, 1975.       Joe says,  at 200 MPH there is about 12 pounds of downforce on both the vents.   Gary Romburg's reply was, That may very well be, but that was not important there.       

[odcics2]

The "extractors" were part of the "Recommended Package" for the Daytona. Read the bottom line of the document on post #12.

If extra tire clearance was needed on the Daytona I would think they would have been on John Pointers sketch, since that issue had been around for some time.
But they weren't.   They previously increased the front torsion bar rates to alleviate that issue.  (again - documented on the aerowarrior site)  So, it looks like the extractors were added because of the reduction in drag as the Daytona was being developed.  
John was a very smart aero engineer...   Let the Ford guys guess!  What exactly did he tell his Chrysler buddies about the scoops??  

I'd like to know the front spring rates the Fords ran at Talladega in 69.

[Ghoste]

But for that original sketch, how could he have known the extractors, scoops, holes for tire clearance, whatever, would be needed yet?  Wasn't the first sketch just to show the car with a missile nose to cut wind and a wing to add downforce at the rear?

[C5X DAYTONA]

     I can only speculate that when the engineers saw the drawing they said make room there for the tire as we are close to the top of the fender on the Charger 500 and did hit before the suspension mod.  But 15-18 MPH gain is huge and they knew before they hit Talladega that they were going to have more speed and downward G forces in the turns than they did at Daytona and on the Chrysler Proving Grounds.   Some say why not put on a bigger t-bar, shock and sway bar?  That would take more testing when the extractor fixed the problem.   John came up with the extractor.  Duel purpose but the original intent was for the tire.   Now if John found out that the extractor worked better than having no extractor was an after effect.   The ORIGINAL purpose was for the RF tire.     I know personally George Wallace talked about taking a test car out with a small hole in the right front fender, numbering a welding rod and welding it to the upper right a-arm.   That way the rod was sticking out the top of the right front fender and now picture this.   Having a driver take the car up to speed while he was hanging on to the roll cage and taking pictures of the rod sticking through the RF fender and that way he could calculate the suspension travel on the high banks and get a bar, shock and tire combo package ready for that particular track/car application.     If anyone knows George's antics they know very well he was the guy with the big balls.   He rode shotgun on more than one occasion.   

[C5X DAYTONA]

This is not a story about some guy at a dealership says to a prospect those are vents or for clearance or some tall tale.   My response to this issue is a case of the ACTUAL engineers saying tire clearance.   Nothing else.  They are very stern on this issue.    Of course they tested it and it worked great as part of the aero package.   Now, if they louvered the top of the fender that would be for a extractor only issue and get the same affect without the tire clearance issue.   But the engineers are very stern that they needed to push up the RF fender.     Pointer played with it and made it work with an aero advantage.   It really is that simple.     

[C5X DAYTONA]

The "extractors" were part of the "Recommended Package" for the Daytona. Read the bottom line of the document on post #12.

If extra tire clearance was needed on the Daytona I would think they would have been on John Pointers sketch, since that issue had been around for some time.
But they weren't.   They previously increased the front torsion bar rates to alleviate that issue.  (again - documented on the aerowarrior site)  So, it looks like the extractors were added because of the reduction in drag as the Daytona was being developed.  
John was a very smart aero engineer...   Let the Ford guys guess!  What exactly did he tell his Chrysler buddies about the scoops??  

I'd like to know the front spring rates the Fords ran at Talladega in 69.

Yes the "extractors" were part of the "Recommended Package"     That was after the fact.   

John Pointer's sketch was just about aero and down force.   Nothing else..  That is also why the vertical supports changed.    The wing actually slowed the car down but added stability on the final design.     Who was questioning how smart John was?  Not me.  He was brilliant in my mind.      That was the trick to Ford and Grand National.  Call it an extractor and don't tell them the car gets that low in the corners (on the bumps.)   

The only reason for the front suspension mod on the to the Non Daytona car was Chrysler was not allowed to push up the fender according to Grand National Rules.   So they were forced to modify the suspension.   But on the Daytona they could modify the fender.  So they did.   The trick it to get the car as low as possible at speed.  The fender was limiting the possibility on the standard Charger fender.   So when the option came to push up the fender with a new car........  They did.

[odcics2]

The limiting factor on a race Daytona is the bottom of the hood bracing on the pass side. That hangs lower than the fender strengthening rod, which is just under the surface of the fender.  It will hit the inner hood way before the tire gets into the scoop. During the 200 record run, there is a photo with the hood up where you can see ball peen hammer marks done by Chrysler mechanic Fred Schrandt to clear the tire.  As the speeds got up to the 200 range, a little extra clearance was needed, in spite of the massive torsion bars.    Mind you that it only hit the hood inner on the bump at Talladega, no place else...

Actually, the "Recommended Package" did not include the wing. Like you stated, the wing adds some drag and the package was to achieve the lowest drag possible.
Obviously, to balance the car, a wing is a better choice than a huge rear spoiler.

[C5X DAYTONA]

The limiting factor on a race Daytona is the bottom of the hood bracing on the pass side. That hangs lower than the fender strengthening rod, which is just under the surface of the fender.  It will hit the inner hood way before the tire gets into the scoop. During the 200 record run, there is a photo with the hood up where you can see ball peen hammer marks done by Chrysler mechanic Fred Schrandt to clear the tire.  As the speeds got up to the 200 range, a little extra clearance was needed, in spite of the massive torsion bars.    Mind you that it only hit the hood inner on the bump at Talladega, no place else...

Actually, the "Recommended Package" did not include the wing. Like you stated, the wing adds some drag and the package was to achieve the lowest drag possible.
Obviously, to balance the car, a wing is a better choice than a huge rear spoiler.

Yep, the tire hit the hood.  The more they modified the car the more they had to modify.  It's a never ending saga.    Car did go lower than they expected.  But it didn't hit the fender top....     Mission accomplished.    On the wing I was referring to the original drawing from Pointer..  Not the Recommended Package.  My bad on not being clear.   Pointer only designed the extractor after the engineers told him to make something to clear the tire..  In the engineers eyes they were after the clearance.  Sure. Pointer made it work with an aero advantage.   So. Clearance was first then the aero..       You know,  first comes love than comes marriage...   Well in theory..  

[Budnicks]

I just read all 9 pages of this thread again, thank you for the inside information....

[C5X DAYTONA]

Ah, is there a way to put these two treads together?     Good info on both..

[Budnicks]

Ah, is there a way to put these two treads together?     Good info on both..

Maybe just add a link to the other treads in your posts that way people can check them both out & compare in separate windows... Don't ask me how to do it though....

[C5X DAYTONA]

Me neither....    My library and garage are full but I am now lacking the computer skills.... 

[Budnicks]

Me neither....    My library and garage are full but I am now lacking the computer skills....  

I can relate   , for sure   when I 1st got into cars, a computer would fill a 3 bedroom house, not fit on a desk, let alone carry around, like the notebooks or the new phones....

[xs29j8Bullitt]

Ah, is there a way to put these two treads together?     Good info on both..

What other thread are you referring to?