What is your definition of a "survivor"?

[Drache]

Does the car have to be 100% original or can you rebuild/replace some things?

Mainly things like a front end, brakes, exhaust, etc.

[Tilar]

Those would be normal maintenance items and wouldn't hurt survivor status. I would say that new interior, paint, fenders or that sort of thing would be crossing the line.   

[Ghoste]

That would be 100% my opinion.  Some of the loose fast definitions out there that I hear using the term definitely dont cut it by my reckoning.

[68X426]

Those would be normal maintenance items and wouldn't hurt survivor status. I would say that new interior, paint, fenders or that sort of thing would be crossing the line.   

Agreed. 

[XS29LA47V21]

Seems to be somewhat a range of cars for me at times with very original traits, the more original the better, but for description I think they should be factory original paint (ideally all the car). 

[ODZKing]

Nothing changed other than regular maintenance or repair.   

Those would be normal maintenance items and wouldn't hurt survivor status. I would say that new interior, paint, fenders or that sort of thing would be crossing the line.   

Agreed. 

[A34]

Here's one group of opinions:


CRITERIA: UNRESTORED/UNRESTIFIED MOPARS at least 25 years old. 80% each, of the paint, interior, and drive train must be as "factory installed or applied". It does not mean repainted to the correct color or rebuilt to the original specifications.
 
We want the display to present each vehicle to best represent it the way it is after it Survived all of these years. Maintenance and normal repairs are acceptable as well as minimal accident repair. Component replacement; such as belts, hoses, exhaust, tires, etc. is expected.
To maintain a high quality display, we recommend replacing components with similar items such as correct tire type and size, correct battery, stock appearing exhaust, correct hose clamps, Mopar belts, etc.


http://www.challengertaregistry.com/survivor.html

http://www.moparmusclemagazine.com/eventcoverage/mopp_0203_mels_major_survivor_group/index.html

[Ghoste]

BTW, Drache why do you ask?  You find a potential survivor?

[Drache]

BTW, Drache why do you ask?  You find a potential survivor?

Yeah but he wants $30,000 for it.  

Actually a friend send the picture and info to me.

[bakerhillpins]

Is that car from Canada? It certainly looks like the 3x green from CA listed on Ebay a while back.

Me thinks so: http://www.cars-on-line.com/54655.html  So 30k CA is what in US greenbacks?

Some Comps:

An un restored 68 that sold for around 30k here. Better color in my opinion but it doesn't have the steelies with dogs.  
http://www.cars-on-line.com/51720.html

There was an un-restored (advertised that way) T5 (5) for sale in FL. 69 383 console auto, AC, PB, tan vinyl top, tan interior. It was listed for quite some time for 35k. At least a year IIRC. Can't find that ad right now.

Nothing changed other than regular maintenance or repair.  

Those would be normal maintenance items and wouldn't hurt survivor status. I would say that new interior, paint, fenders or that sort of thing would be crossing the line.  

Agreed.  

+12

[bakerhillpins]

80% each, of the paint, interior, and drive train must be as "factory installed or applied".

How do you figure %s on that for say parts like drive train?? If you loose a motor is that 1/3rd or is it by weight, or volume? 

[surmanajaja]

If I am buying a survivor ( I wish,, ) then it should be original paint, maybe a fender or a door repainted because of accident or something, thats ok. original engine, can have add-ons from the day and normal tune-up etc maintenance,original interior with maybe recovered drivers seat or something small like that. those are the most important things, if the trans has been overhauled or rear gears changed, I wont mind.

If I am not buying the car, then I would call a survivor a car with a single repaint made before 1989, if everything else is original and not restored.

[XS29L9Bxxxxxx]

80% each, of the paint, interior, and drive train must be as "factory installed or applied".

How do you figure %s on that for say parts like drive train?? If you loose a motor is that 1/3rd or is it by weight, or volume? 

Non-orig motor = Non survivor.

The Corvette guys have all this figured out already 

[XS29L9Bxxxxxx]

Does the car have to be 100% original or can you rebuild/replace some things?

Mainly things like a front end, brakes, exhaust, etc.

If it was under the big red and white tent at carlisle, it was a Survivor 

[XS29LA47V21]

Does the car have to be 100% original or can you rebuild/replace some things?

Mainly things like a front end, brakes, exhaust, etc.

If it was under the big red and white tent at carlisle, it was a Survivor

 We agree to disagree, I no issues with my B5 RT 4spd w/ original paint & non-number motor.... anywhere in my head, go find any motor option 69 in any color presentable these days.    I am confused, so now we are the vette set too, please no.  

F3 I am with you bud. 

[RallyeMike]

Mostly original paint and interior. Numbers matching drive train. That is the minimum requirements, and the level of "survivor" goes up from there....

[maxwellwedge]

Mostly original paint and interior. Numbers matching drive train. That is the minimum requirements, and the level of "survivor" goes up from there....

+1

[hemi68charger]

Does the car have to be 100% original or can you rebuild/replace some things?

Mainly things like a front end, brakes, exhaust, etc.

According to the last time I talked to the gentleman that organizes Carlisle and other Mopar ticket events, the paint is to be about 75-85%, the interior the majority if not all, original engine/tranny/rear axle. I forget his name, but I discussed this with him about my former '71 Charger R/T survivor. The 'Vette world has a totally different translation of "survivor" as well as NBC.. 

[A383Wing]

Strange that this topic came up...I was gonna basically ask the same questions about my 2 cars here...what do you guys think...

1st car) 1966 Charger, 160,000 miles,original 383 (never opened up), manual trans, rear end, & paint...I only redid the interior a couple years ago because the front seats were held together with duct tape and the carpets were worn out...

2nd car) 1973 Pontiac Grandville convert, 58,000 mile car, everything still original except for the new top and some engine gaskets due to it's sitting for 14 years and never run...

So, my question is....survivor, original, or something else?

[Cooter]

I think the term "Survivor" is being kicked around nowadays because it used ot be "Hemi car" this, and "440 SIX PACK" that, that brought the money..

Now, it seems the "collector" cround has gotten on a "Survivor" kick and are paying for 'em. So, therefore, everything from granny's 1978 Nova 4dr, 250 6 cyl. , with original Puke green paint and piss yellow interior is a "Survivor"...

[XS29L9Bxxxxxx]

Does the car have to be 100% original or can you rebuild/replace some things?

Mainly things like a front end, brakes, exhaust, etc.

If it was under the big red and white tent at carlisle, it was a Survivor

 We agree to disagree, I no issues with my B5 RT 4spd w/ original paint & non-number motor.... anywhere in my head, go find any motor option 69 in any color presentable these days.    I am confused, so now we are the vette set too, please no.  

F3 I am with you bud. 

Are you suggesting that a car - any car, with a non-original motor is a "survivor"?

If so, what has it survived? 

[Fred]

In my opinion it doesn't matter how much of a rust bucket it is when you find it.................if you restore it (using either original or after market parts) back to it's original state, , then it's a survivor.

[Tilar]

In my opinion it doesn't matter how much of a rust bucket it is when you find it.................if you restore it (using either original or after market parts) back to it's original state, , then it's a survivor.

That would be like cleaning up a set of old used exhaust manifolds and having them coated and looking new and calling them NOS. It just doesn't quite work like that.

[Magnumcharger]

I had the pleasure of getting a very up-close and personal look at that particular F8 Charger when I saw it at a Mopar show last summer.

To call it a 'Survivor' is a bit of a stretch. A goodly portion of one quarterpanel as repainted after a rust repair was performed.
There is also lots of other areas that desperately need repair, including other rust issues.
The car is absolutely covered in dents and dings, especially the doors.

IMHO, the car is worth maybe $15K. Sure it's a '69 Charger, but she's rough. And it's not an R/T, or a four-speed, or an SE even.

AFAIK, it's a good point to start a restoration from.

[charger490]

my 58 plymouth i bought from a farm wife with 80000 miles on it. she never drove it in the winter .i have done nothing to it except plugs, points, tires.it has 93000 miles on it now.it had plastic on the seats when i bought it so they are in great shape. i was told to not even clean the engine.

Survivor  yes or no

[XS29LA47V21]

Does the car have to be 100% original or can you rebuild/replace some things?

Mainly things like a front end, brakes, exhaust, etc.

If it was under the big red and white tent at carlisle, it was a Survivor

 We agree to disagree, I no issues with my B5 RT 4spd w/ original paint & non-number motor.... anywhere in my head, go find any motor option 69 in any color presentable these days.    I am confused, so now we are the vette set too, please no.  

F3 I am with you bud. 

Are you suggesting that a car - any car, with a unoriginal motor is a "survivor"?

If so, what has it survived? 

I would rather have a great old body w/ original paint, that has survived all these years, just me.  I guess I have pigeon holed myself into colors, options and nice bodies rather then numbers matching ugly color rusty cars, never had cared that much about that number part.  I drive and beat on mine at times.  So what if I found a factory replacement block and put it in there, some say that is as good as #'s (almost).  75% original paint, that is fairly modified also isn't it?  What about the color that have survived, mostly seems to be the less "desirable" colors?  We are still talking about 40 + year old cars not on every block anymore. 

[RallyeMike]

Are you suggesting that a car - any car, with a non-original motor is a "survivor"?

If so, what has it survived?

I would also consider a car qualifying as a "survivor" if it had mostly orginal paint and interior and a warranty engine or transmission.

Of course, any old car that has not met its fate at the crusher is a survivor. I think we are discussing a more elite class of car than that - ie: cars that are intact mostly originally as they were sold when new without major repair, restoration, or transformation. That makes them special, but does not degrade the vaule of cars that have been restored or are drivers either.

[BrianShaughnessy]

You can call it whatever you want just as long as you don't call it mine.

   I seriously do not want the responsibility of maintaining a true survivor.

     Congrats and good luck to all that enjoy that aspect of the hobby...    I like to look at them but I don't want one.

[XS29LA47V21]

You can call it whatever you want just as long as you don't call it mine.

   I seriously do not want the responsibility of maintaining a true survivor.

     Congrats and good luck to all that enjoy that aspect of the hobby...    I like to look at them but I don't want one.

RallyeMike we are similar in thoughts here or similar I suppose, I am suggesting or trying to say is, I sure like seeing original cars over the years of cars I have seen, I guess because I seldom see any very original, even a 318-838 cars or not rare colors holding presentable all factory paint, ever if some other stuff has been maintained over the years or if they do not belong in some tent at a big show somewhere by some vet set criteria.   Yes Mr Shaughnasty my 1/4 mile gravel drive puts another chip in my car (that would not be allowed in that tent by the way, although B5 RT 4spd orig paint) still gets me ruffled , but so would a fully restored car.   My thoughts here are in hobby collector thoughts, not towards values or the 1 of X conv 6pac ultra rare, just cool old cars.  For example, local to me, I perceive over the last near 20yrs of friends, shows and youth beating the bushes for cars.... its easy to think generally you know about most cars local to you.  So, just this last wkend met a lady, the original owner, of a 95% original paint 68 RT, very presentable but tired paint, you never know what cars are out there and it is always nice to see them out.  So she has been thinking about painting this car (another color), which she should, its her car, but I sure would not  .         

[XS29L9Bxxxxxx]

Mopar Definition:

MISSION:   The first objective is to preserve the nice old MOPARS and gather them together for reference displays to show them as they were years ago.
The second objective is to get all of the owners together for these displays to have fun and enjoy their MOPARS. This is not a club with a membership. Any Mopar that meets the criteria, and would like to attend a show, can sign up. There is not, and will not be any competition within this group.
CRITERIA:   UNRESTORED/UNRESTIFIED MOPARS at least 25 years old. 80% each, of the paint, interior, and drive train must be as "factory installed or applied". It does not mean repainted to the correct color or rebuilt to the original specifications.
We want the display to present each vehicle to best represent it the way it is after it Survived all of these years. Maintenance and normal repairs are acceptable as well as minimal accident repair. Component replacement; such as belts, hoses, exhaust, tires, etc. is expected.
To maintain a high quality display, we recommend replacing components with similar items such as correct tire type and size, correct battery, stock appearing exhaust, correct hose clamps, Mopar belts, etc.

If your Mopar is going to participate in one of these displays, we will ask for two pictures and a short story of how it survived over the years. This will become part of the display.

Corvette Definition (which came first in originating the whole concept of "Survivor"):

As the name implies, Corvettes that have never been restored have 'survived' intentional or unintentional loss of original markings, paint or components. Corvettes remaining over 50% unrestored or unmodified may qualify for this award if they remain in a condition that would serve well as an historic guide for others who want to restore a Corvette of that vintage and type. This award is designed to recognize those Corvettes that are "Worn in, but not worn out." A Survivor Corvette is significantly unrestored, unrepaired, or unmodified and useful as a historic reference. It is a Corvette who in the best interest of research should not be restored or improved. Again, as with Certification, the cars are judged against a factory standard and not against one another. The technical portion of the judging is eliminated and instead the Corvettes must complete a 20 mile road test under their own power in an established time frame. Survivors must pass at least 3 of the 4 categories of exterior, interior, engine/compartment and chassis.
Since the advent of this award, there is now a reason for further preservation of Corvettes whose histories and character may have otherwise been lost. Survivor judging is fun and the Survivor Corvettes become a member of an elite group of historically significant cars. Survivor Corvettes are the Corvettes judges and restorers seek out to study.

[XS29L9Bxxxxxx]

You can call it whatever you want just as long as you don't call it mine.

   I seriously do not want the responsibility of maintaining a true survivor.

     Congrats and good luck to all that enjoy that aspect of the hobby...    I like to look at them but I don't want one.

It has to be tough and I do respect those who are keepers of the flame, so-to-speak. However, do they enjoy their cars? Probably not, from the standpoint of hammer-down, flat-out driving... 

[maxwellwedge]

Almost half of my cars are survivors and I do drive them. Some even have the original tires.

I drive them like they were meant to be driven and have taken a few to the track as well.

I have never cared what the collector or auction crowd thinks is the flavor of the month....I have always appreciated a car that somehow, some way has "made it" after all these years. I have always "pulled the trigger" whenever a nice one comes up for sale.

They are invaluable cars for reference to someone performing a full resto or just a shave and a hair cut. I happily share this info with anyone that ever needs help....another cool aspect of these cars.

I feel better about driving these than I do a freshly restored OE Gold car.....don't know why - I just do.

I beat the crap out of these things back in the 70's.....cut and modified them for racing etc.

Now - I just want them like Ma built them.

[Magnumcharger]

Pics du jour...

[69 OUR/TEA]

My opinion of a what being called a survivor should be is exactly what others have said,mostly orig paint(75 % or more),orig interior,eng and tranny should be matching numbers,and most importantly be somewhat clean and respectable.No rotted panels,major dented panels,aftermarket rims,rotted floors,etc.
Wearable items that needed to be replaced or broke, to keep safely and reliably running and driving.Basically as much as possible leaving everything untouched as delivered from the factory.
I myself fall into two categories,one,I love restored cars,meaning over restored way nicer than they were built.And two,also love survivors as somehow a certain car was able to stand the time and use and stay in somewhat nice original shape.Basically that whom ever being the owner took the care and time to retain it like that.We all see what can happen to cars/trucks after being just 5 years old can be like minor fender benders,replaced windshields from rocks and such,rust attacking them,interiors getting trashed,etc.
With that,I know this is a Charger site and is supposed to be directed mostly at that topic of car,closely followed by other Mopars,so I never really get into how I am into Buicks almost as much,but as the topic in discussion is about survivors,here is one of my Buicks that I picked up the week after Xmas last year.I bought it because of the survivor status it has,and felt I would enjoy taking it out to cruises,nice day drives,etc.
It's a 75 Buick Regal,350-4bbl,tilt wheel,pwr windows,AM/FM,ice cold R-12 A/C,orig paint,14k mile car.The only things changed on this car were the tires,eng hoses/belts,front shocks,and a dual exhaust was changed from the single.From Cummins Buick in Santa Monica ,Ca brought here in 99 or so.
I know it will not appeal to most if at all any of you,but as I said,I love orig cars like this regardless of its  desirability and value.Fun enjoyment to me to own something like this,ntm don't care about driving it around and worrying about it.

[69 OUR/TEA]

pics...

[69 OUR/TEA]

pics..

[XS29L9Bxxxxxx]

Pics du jour...

Nice car! 42 Y/O virgin. LoL 

[XS29L9Bxxxxxx]

I think this thread from a year ago is the quintessential survivor: 


http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,74322.0.html

[RallyeMike]

You can call it whatever you want just as long as you don't call it mine.

   I seriously do not want the responsibility of maintaining a true survivor.

     Congrats and good luck to all that enjoy that aspect of the hobby...    I like to look at them but I don't want one.

I'm in the same mold. When I was old enough to buy a Charger my 69 was already 10 years old, and there were a lot of punks like me driving them as recklessly as we could. I still have not entirely outgrown that even though the collectors and polishers sometimes seem to have rewritten the rules of "how to enjoy a muscle car". But that's ok, everyone enjoys it their own way. 

[383hp]

what about low mileage vehicles?

[Drache]

There is also a 1st gen for sale here in town for $30,000 because it's a survivor. Such a shame really. The first owner used to drive it on gravel roads (since he lived 5 miles outside off the paved roads) so the paint is all pock marked with chips and small dents. Interior looks really nice though. The guy who owns it now bought it from the original owner. He also owns an unrestored Dart GTS 340 4 speed as well with some nasty rust forming in the quarters. 

[Ghoste]

30k for a 1st gen sounds strong in this market even for a survivor but I haven't seen the car either.

[Cooter]

All my cars have/had "Survivor" rust issues. Most had "Survivor" ripped up interiors as well..Maybe I shoulda left 'em alone and tried to get top dollar being all that rust "Survived" for all those years. Hmmmm...

[Road Dog]

My Charger making it thru High School with me makes it a Survivor.

[XS29LA47V21]

Mopar Definition:

MISSION:   The first objective is to preserve the nice old MOPARS and gather them together for reference displays to show them as they were years ago.
The second objective is to get all of the owners together for these displays to have fun and enjoy their MOPARS. This is not a club with a membership. Any Mopar that meets the criteria, and would like to attend a show, can sign up. There is not, and will not be any competition within this group.
CRITERIA:   UNRESTORED/UNRESTIFIED MOPARS at least 25 years old. 80% each, of the paint, interior, and drive train must be as "factory installed or applied". It does not mean repainted to the correct color or rebuilt to the original specifications.
We want the display to present each vehicle to best represent it the way it is after it Survived all of these years. Maintenance and normal repairs are acceptable as well as minimal accident repair. Component replacement; such as belts, hoses, exhaust, tires, etc. is expected.
To maintain a high quality display, we recommend replacing components with similar items such as correct tire type and size, correct battery, stock appearing exhaust, correct hose clamps, Mopar belts, etc.

If your Mopar is going to participate in one of these displays, we will ask for two pictures and a short story of how it survived over the years. This will become part of the display.

Corvette Definition (which came first in originating the whole concept of "Survivor"):

As the name implies, Corvettes that have never been restored have 'survived' intentional or unintentional loss of original markings, paint or components. Corvettes remaining over 50% unrestored or unmodified may qualify for this award if they remain in a condition that would serve well as an historic guide for others who want to restore a Corvette of that vintage and type. This award is designed to recognize those Corvettes that are "Worn in, but not worn out." A Survivor Corvette is significantly unrestored, unrepaired, or unmodified and useful as a historic reference. It is a Corvette who in the best interest of research should not be restored or improved. Again, as with Certification, the cars are judged against a factory standard and not against one another. The technical portion of the judging is eliminated and instead the Corvettes must complete a 20 mile road test under their own power in an established time frame. Survivors must pass at least 3 of the 4 categories of exterior, interior, engine/compartment and chassis.
Since the advent of this award, there is now a reason for further preservation of Corvettes whose histories and character may have otherwise been lost. Survivor judging is fun and the Survivor Corvettes become a member of an elite group of historically significant cars. Survivor Corvettes are the Corvettes judges and restorers seek out to study.

Interesting, never made much efforts to find some of this criteria reading here, but good read, thanks, does not change my tainted youth late 80s-into 90s of difficulties finding parts-non cobbled up cars which is likely a strong part of why love clean old survivors.  I remember that bronze RT on ebay I recall  at the time, had not seen that green charger above, that is a pretty presentable too.

[Drache]

30k for a 1st gen sounds strong in this market even for a survivor but I haven't seen the car either.

[41husk]

Technically wouldn't any car 10 years old and older, still around after cash for for clunkers be a survivor

[XS29LA47V21]

30k for a 1st gen sounds strong in this market even for a survivor but I haven't seen the car either.

The red car, if factory paint looks outstanding for sure.  The green charger above is very nice to my eyes, plenty of small dings and such but similar to by blue RT (except mine is not numbers matching as mentioned before  ).  So is the green charger above still available?

[tan top]

 as we know !! when cars are advertised for sale  , the word survivor & original has developed new meanings in some for sale adds !!
think some wear items are ok along with some paint say from the 70s maybe early 80 when these cars were daily drivers !!  but i think its difficult to say this much been done  to a car ! & it  is a survivor !! but that much is not !! writing it down black & white !! with out a subject car !!  each cars are different & need to be judged separately !! , course every one sees & interprets things different !!  i know what i'm trying to say i think !!but just read this back & dont seem to make much sense  D'oh 

[Drache]

The red car, if factory paint looks outstanding for sure.  The green charger above is very nice to my eyes, plenty of small dings and such but similar to by blue RT (except mine is not numbers matching as mentioned before  ).  So is the green charger above still available?

The paint on the '66 looks nice in the pictures but behind the wheels is pock marked by white dings and chips due to gravel. There are also a few small dents as well.

And yes the green '69 is still available.

[Fred]

Does the car have to be 100% original or can you rebuild/replace some things?

Mainly things like a front end, brakes, exhaust, etc.

If it was under the big red and white tent at carlisle, it was a Survivor

 We agree to disagree, I no issues with my B5 RT 4spd w/ original paint & non-number motor.... anywhere in my head, go find any motor option 69 in any color presentable these days.    I am confused, so now we are the vette set too, please no.  

F3 I am with you bud. 

Are you suggesting that a car - any car, with a unoriginal motor is a "survivor"?

If so, what has it survived? 

I would rather have a great old body w/ original paint, that has survived all these years, just me.  I guess I have pigeon holed myself into colors, options and nice bodies rather then numbers matching ugly color rusty cars, never had cared that much about that number part.  I drive and beat on mine at times.  So what if I found a factory replacement block and put it in there, some say that is as good as #'s (almost).  75% original paint, that is fairly modified also isn't it?  What about the color that have survived, mostly seems to be the less "desirable" colors?  We are still talking about 40 + year old cars not on every block anymore. 

The fact that it's still here and hasn't gone to the crusher makes it a survivor doesn't it?

[XS29LA47V21]

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=270823778536&ssPageName=ADME:B:EF:MOTORS:1123
ebay 270823778536

Regardless if a car like this is No. matching or not and indeed is original paint, (not really RR guy), this look outstanding to me. 

[RallyeMike]

The fact that it's still here and hasn't gone to the crusher makes it a survivor doesn't it?

Beat ya too it. Na-na 

Of course, any old car that has not met its fate at the crusher is a survivor.

[XS29L9Bxxxxxx]

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=270823778536&ssPageName=ADME:B:EF:MOTORS:1123
ebay 270823778536

Regardless if a car like this is No. matching or not and indeed is original paint, (not really RR guy), this look outstanding to me. 

Nice car - lots of comments on "Survivor" terminology in the Q&A at the bottom - most are guesses, at best... I think the Corvette guys have it right though 

[Fred]

The fact that it's still here and hasn't gone to the crusher makes it a survivor doesn't it?

Beat ya too it. Na-na 

Of course, any old car that has not met its fate at the crusher is a survivor.

Oh I missed that but it just goes to show that great minds think alike!