Pumpkin swap - Update: Clips are on, new problems

[Alaskan_TA]

If I understand you correctly, a needle or two may have come out. If one or more needles are out of place and caught at the end of the joint itself, then the cup will not sit on it right.

Pull the cups & take a look inside.

[Dino]

If I understand you correctly, a needle or two may have come out. If one or more needles are out of place and caught at the end of the joint itself, then the cup will not sit on it right.

Pull the cups & take a look inside.

Checked and the caps are fine, rubber seals are where they're supposed to be.  I removed the caps and grabbed the ones from the old u joint but same story.  In fact I tried putting the old joint back on the yoke of the pumpkin I removed and can't egt that one on either.  The c clips are supposed to be on there right?  I'm not supposed to just put the straps and bolts on?

[nvrbdn]

c clips for the shaft and the yolk, the rear end just uses the straps to hold the u joint in place. there is a small piece of metel protruding out that holds the caps in place.

[Dino]

c clips for the shaft and the yolk, the rear end just uses the straps to hold the u joint in place. there is a small piece of metel protruding out that holds the caps in place.

It's a good thing I only wasted half my day trying to get the clips on...my French improved significantly though!   

All kidding aside, I'm glad I can simply use the straps and get this done with.

Thanks!

[maxwellwedge]

You didn't use the C clips?

Did you note what was there before you took it apart?

Get the FSM.

[Dino]

You didn't use the C clips?

Did you note what was there before you took it apart?

Get the FSM.

The old cross had all 4 c clips installed.  I removed it form the driveshaft and installed the conversion cross in the driveshaft.  I placed the new c clips in the caps in the driveshaft.

I then placed the c clips on the caps going in to the pumpkin u joint and couldn't fit it.  Took one c clip off, slid the cross into place and noticed the groove for the second c clip was on the edge of the yoke, there is no way I can get the caps to seat in those half circles with the c clips on.  I pulled the driveshaft away from the rear end, put the caps on the cross withe c clips in place and put a woodworking vice on the caps so it was nice and tight.  I measured both the inside of the u joint yoke and measure from outside edge of one c clip to the other, the latter was slightly larger so it won't go in.

I have not done anything else to it, all I can do is leave the clips off at the carrier end and use the straps and bolts to set it in place.

[Chryco Psycho]

if you leave the c clips off you will have a vibration at minimum , worst case is the cap will come out of the yolk .
pull the caps & make sure all the rollers are in place , if one is laying in the bottom of the cap the cap will not go all the way on & the clips will not fit inside the yolk

[Dino]

I've had the caps off dozens of times, the bearings are all in place and the caps are on the cross as far as they can go, I even took the caps off the old cross to use on the new and it's exactly the same, this thing is not fitting.  The only thing that will make this fit is grind the inside of the u joint but that's not going to work well with it being under the car. 

Also when I have one c clip on the cap and slide the cross into the yoke, the top of the cap is recessed from the outside of the u joint and the opposite cap's top protrudes from the outside of the u joint so it's not center.  This is messed up and I've just about had it with this thing.  I wasted my weekend and will now have to get new parts to reinstall the dang 3.55 gears.  What a waste.  Whoever made the conversion joint needs to buy better calipers.

The onlly way for me to fit this thing is to simply use the straps on the pumpkin side.  I may just do so to at least see how it runs and then park it until I figure out what to do.  I really don't want to go back to 3.55's.

And this was supposed to be the easy project.....

[RallyeMike]

Rule #1. There is no easy project on a 40+ YO Mopar.

I think I remember running into a similar issue once on a non-conversion joint where the new U-joint clips were wider than the thin stock ones. I think I was able to make it work using thinner clips.

To check your fit, assemble the caps on the U-joint, clamp it together tight and measure the distance between the clips. Compare the distance on the yoke and see if this is going to work at all.

As a last result, maybe you have the wrong U-joint?

Good luck.

[charger Downunder]

May be you should post a few pics close up of the problem and what you are working with.
You didnt bent the tail shaft ends in while you were removing it.

[Dino]

I checked the old clips to see if they were thinner but they were not, thinner clips might work but they will likely not seat well and thus won't do the job.  The distance between the u joint arms is slightly shorter than the distance between the outside edges of the clips installed on the cross.

I bought the pumpking on craigslist, I never thought to check if anything was bent.  If I had a way to put something inbetween the arms and slightly bend them out I would, I just don't see what could do so, and then there's the risk of breaking the joint itself.  It wouldn't need much though, I'd say 1/16" would do it.  I tried measuring with the caliper but it's digital and the battery is dead....

I'll get some pics up later.

Mike I forgot about rule #1, I guess I was a little too optimistic.

EDIT:

I tried to capture the issue as best as I could, you can see that one clip is barely on the inside of the u joint while the other is hitting the top side, ie it won't fit in.

You can see on the caliper (worked for about a minute before the battery failed again) that measuring the inside of the u joint is 2.128.  I couldn't capture it with the camera but the measurement from one clip to the other (outsides) is 2.19

That may not seem like a lot but it's enough to not make the dang thing fit!

Any ideas?  I'm desperate.

By the way, IF I can get ths to fit and it turns out these new gears are noisy or otherwise less than perfect I will officially go crazy.   

[RallyeMike]

Those pictures brought back a few memories. I definitely ran into this before and solved it using thinner clips.

I doubt the yoke is bent. It takes a lot to damage these, and you would see the impact to it. You can check it by measuring the distance at the front and rear of the cap. Same = not bent.

Other ideas?

1. Grind 1/32 off each end of the U-joint posts? You will have to clean it well afterward.

2. It wouldn't take much to take 1/32 off each inside face of the yoke, but you'd have to do it carefully. It can be done with a hand grinder. I just resurfaced a slant 6 intake and exhaust flanges to fix warped flange seal by using a pipe saw with an abrasive metal disk. A little hairy, but it worked.

3. Does someone else out there make this conversion joint that you could compare specs on?

After a quick check on #3, I would go with #1. Yes, you will have to take the damn thing out of the drive shaft again, but it's better to modify the cheap, replaceable part than something else.

Sorry you are having a tough time!

[Dino]

Those pictures brought back a few memories. I definitely ran into this before and solved it using thinner clips.

I doubt the yoke is bent. It takes a lot to damage these, and you would see the impact to it. You can check it by measuring the distance at the front and rear of the cap. Same = not bent.

Other ideas?

1. Grind 1/32 off each end of the U-joint posts? You will have to clean it well afterward.

2. It wouldn't take much to take 1/32 off each inside face of the yoke, but you'd have to do it carefully. It can be done with a hand grinder. I just resurfaced a slant 6 intake and exhaust flanges to fix warped flange seal by using a pipe saw with an abrasive metal disk. A little hairy, but it worked.

3. Does someone else out there make this conversion joint that you could compare specs on?

After a quick check on #3, I would go with #1. Yes, you will have to take the damn thing out of the drive shaft again, but it's better to modify the cheap, replaceable part than something else.

Sorry you are having a tough time!

So if I grind a bit off each post the caps should slide on alittle further and thus the clips would go on...the rubber seals would compress a bit more but dang this would probably work!  I don't mind taking the conversion joint out of the driveshaft if it would solve the problem.  I would however mind taking this pumpkin back out to grind the insides of the flanges.  Yes they are equal in measurement front and rear of the cap, the yoke seems to be fine.

I will check first to see if there's a different company making the conversion joint, or if I can find the same one just to compare.  Maybe I had a fluke.

Thanks for your insight Mike, I really appreciate it!  Will keep you posted on progress.

[RallyeMike]

It's only a 32nd of an inch, so it might work. You'll have to check the measurements carefully to make sure you don't end up with interference somewhere else (crossing fingers!)

[Dino]

Since nobody carries another brand of u joint I thought I'd grind down this one a bit t see if it would work.  I ground off about 1/64" on each end and the whole thing slid right into place with the clips on.

I took it for a long drive and everything worked great, except for the speedometer being off.  By the way, should the tach be off as well?  It seems to read more rpm than it's really doing.

When I came home and turned into my driveway I could hear grinding coming from the axle so I checked underneath and everything looks to be ok.  I took it out again and just idled down my sub, it's making a grinding noise at, what I believe to be, each revolution of the driveshaft.  When I turned left to go back, an additional squeeking noise came into play that goes away as soon as you straighten the wheels.  What the heck is all that???  If it wasn't for the noise you wouldn't know something was going on as it drives like butter.  At some speeds it has slight vibration but I'm not sure that wasn't something that wasn't already there.

It doesn't look like anything has shifted at the u joint, can it be the axle preload?  I may have messed up that procedure.

I really love this gear ratio as it makes cruising just perfect so I hope this is something I can fix.

[Dino]

Got the car back on stands, I'm getting pretty quick doing this, and removed the wheels and drums.  Both axles are really tighht, no end play at all so looks like I messed it up.

At this point I can't even get the adjuster nut loose but I'll give it a few whacks again shortly.  I hope this is why it's creaking...

[nvrbdn]

after grinding, it doesnt make the bearings too long, or the cap bottoming out on the center of the u joint does it?

[Dino]

after grinding, it doesnt make the bearings too long, or the cap bottoming out on the center of the u joint does it?

It doesn't look like it, the two rubber seals that sit on the caps are a little more squished but are still in place and the u joint looks to be nicely centered.  I don't know if the problem lies with the u joint, something else or both.  If I have to guess I say it's something else, it sounds like the axles are too tight.  It also started after a good half hour or more of driving, it didn't happen right away.  The axles are really tight, there's absolutely no play on them so I'll see if that changes anything, once I get the adjuster loose that is.  If that doesn't change anything then I'll have to get anoter u joint and hope it fits without modifications.

Right now I have the wheels off and jack stands under the rails right next to the forward leaf spring shackles, would it be too much of a risk to start the car and put it in drive to see where the noise is coming from?

[Back N Black]

If you want to run the car,i suggest you put the stands on the axle. You don't want the rear end bouncing because its not supported.

[Cooter]

I know this is a bad time to be telling you this NOW, but you do know there are different thicknesses of those snap rings right?
most of the newer joints come through with those thick ass rings that usually don't fit too well. I think taking material off the u-joint, coupled with no axle bearing end play is causing your noises. Gotta start there. I'd go with another joint one that hasn't been modded, then run the thinner rings. I've even had to run Ford/Chevy rings on Chrysler joints before to get 'em to fit...You would love the driveshaft in My General Lee. It's half Ford, half Chrysler. The Yoke at the trans is Ford and the shaft is Chrysler. Ford cups on one side and Mopar on the other with Chevy needle bearings.

[RallyeMike]

Speedometer gear only effects the speedometer and odometer. Tach runs off the electrical system and is unaffected by the gear.

I think the U-joint caps are too small to make a grinding noise that you could hear while driving. So it's likely something else.

Axle adjuster too tight = bad. As things warm up, things expand and get even a little tighter (like maybe what 1/2 hour of driving might do). That's why the factory setting has minor play in it. Get the end play right and try again. You can damage the bearings if you have things too tight or loose.

Once that's done, if you still have new grinding noise, I would say it probably the only other things you changed: The gears.

Glad to see you got it together, and .....Cooter thanks for confirming my oft-faulty memory about the clip issue.

[Roth68rt]

It looks like your "C" clamp is keeping the joint from extending out the other side of the yoke.  Try removing the clamp, installing the clip and tapping the other side of the joint till the clip seats and the other side is fully exposed to put the other clip in.  Notice on the driveshaft side the joints stick out slightly, the clamp is keeping the yoke side from doing the same thing.  

Steve

[Dino]

You know I thought about finding thinner clips but the old u joint I have has the exact same thickness clips and since they fit nice and snug into the grooves on the caps, I didn't think to change them.  Again I took very little off the u joint to make it fit, I'm not saying it's impossible but I don't think the u joint is making the noise.

The caps on the yoke side will never stick out, all the c clamp did was keep the caps in place so they wouldn't fall off, there is no extra pressure on them, I just needed something to hold it there so I wouldn't loose the needle rollers.  After grinding down the u joint, when I put the clamp back on I just slightly tightened it, I could still easily rotate the caps with the clamp on.

Since the noise only started after a while I am almost positive the axles are the issue, I may have messed up the bearings.  The adjuster nut is really tight though, I'm afraid to hit it too hard and break one of those tabs off.

I don't think the actual gears are an issue, I've heard damaged gears and this is way different, more like a binding noise as if the axles are too tight.

If I get the end play set up porperly and it's still noisy I will assume the bearings are shot.  If I get new bearings on them and the problem persists then at least I know the axles are no longer an issue, it probably won't hurt to have new bearings anyway.  I like to idea of the green bearings as I wouldn't have to fiddle with end play but I'm not sure they are good enough for a cruiser car that takes lots of turns.

So the tach is reading correctly huh, strange what a difference a few hundred rpm can do then.  It still reads plenty high but it sounds and feels real nice when I drive it.  (save the grinding noises)

for the first time I was able to take it out on the freeway without deafening myself.  Good thing I only took it one exit away as I was unaware of any looming issues with the axle.

This has been one heck of a learning curve so far!  My thanks for all of you that are helping me out.  I do hope many people will learn from my mistakes when they do their own swap.

[charger Downunder]

I Hope this helps i took the caps of my NOS u joint pn 4057025 and it measures 87.6mm across the joint.

[Dino]

I Hope this helps i took the caps of my NOS u joint pn 4057025 and it measures 87.6mm across the joint.

Thanks!  I'll measure mine as it is now and see what I got.  I'll also measure the ones in the store to see if there's any variance.