Problem with Don at FBO Systems ??

[Musicman]

I appreciate the heads up, but I think if someone has a question they should go on-line and ask Don about it... his chat box is open most all the time. I believe it's always better to hear from both sides before passing judgement.

[Just 6T9 CHGR]

I have had only good experiences with Don & his stuff for the most part.  he recurved a few dizzy's for me & was running his ign set up for about 5+ years (until Natcho opened his mouth and killed mine)

Now Im back to my trusty Chrome box & Blaster coil.....

[FLG]

Don't think anyone is bashing, I've seen plenty of threads with people having issues with vendors and this is probably the nicest I've seen in terms of professionalism instead of people just cussing and complaining. What bothers me is the fact it seems like this magic box is simply inexpensive gm unit in a mopar box and maybe it should be labeled as such. Kind of like paying 40 bucks for an upgraded dash voltage limiter only to discover its a bit of soldering and some cheap few $$ parts...difference is we know this and can choose, build it ourselves or spend money to just get it and plug it in. It would be nice if it was stated that this isn't really something special just a gm unit in a mopar case.  Though I'm sure it would kill some business because guys would go elsewhere ot make it themselves just my .02

[Charger_Dart]

Right, I am not fond of bashing vendors who are trying to make decent products for us. But when I feel I have done everything correctly and been given promises that were not fulfilled it is time to let other know that they need to be cautious. 

[Musicman]

What bothers me is the fact it seems like this magic box is simply inexpensive gm unit in a mopar box and maybe it should be labeled as such. It would be nice if it was stated that this isn't really something special just a gm unit in a mopar case. 

According to Don it's not, and it doesn't operate like one either, it just happens to look similar to one, but you would have to ask him yourself for further explination or perhaps a better description. He also stated that most of the cost for the unit is tied up in the billet Mopar style box, and not the part that's in it.

[Nacho-RT74]

ok, I don't care the fancy box, and in fact I preffer the stock one, so I can save my pocket on that.

now, if doesn't operate or is not a GM unit, why tested like one and he told to replace for one ?

something fishy here.

Ok let say I get an ACCEL GM kind unit then:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/New-Accel-GM-HEI-Ignition-Module-1974-95-/130568404281?pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&hash=item1e667bbd39

A $40 piece, not a $20 spare replacement at a regular shop, and still less than the HR688

Or maybe a Moroso:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Moroso-sb-Chevy-GM-4-Pin-HEI-Ignition-Module-97857-/390104084896?pt=Race_Car_Parts&hash=item5ad403f1a0

[AKcharger]

 I heard HLPAG installs those in all their cars

[charger Downunder]

Has any one tried this.
http://www.designed2drive.com/
or done this
http://www.rowand.net/Shop/Tech/MoparHEIConversion.htm

[Stretch]

My question is, Why a GM HEI anything. HEI doesn't like RPM's They loose preformance big the closer to 5000 Revs you get.

I have put a HEI conversion in a few LA engines. My buddys that run demo cars like the 1 wire to the distributor. I can see the advantage in that situation. (Although the big ass cap ends up damn close to the firewall)

I'm not familiar at all with the product mentioned here but if it tests like a GM ignition module, works like one, and can be replaced by one, what is the advantage of running it?

I guess I need to research his product for my self.

[ACUDANUT]

My Mopar Peformance Electronic Ignition system is flawless..Forget that other crap.

[Musicman]

My question is, Why a GM HEI anything. HEI doesn't like RPM's They loose preformance big the closer to 5000 Revs you get.

Good question... What GM unit runs to 9000 RPM's?

Does anyone have unequivocal proof that it is a GM unit or are we just assuming shit...

Go to the source and get the facts!

[mauve66]

First I want to say I am not a big fan of bashing the vendors who take on making products for our Mopar's, but at the same time I think its a good idea to share experiences with vendors.

Don at FBO Systems seems to really know his Mopar's and makes some pretty good stuff, but I just don't get why he has treated me so poorly.

My story goes like this - I have a distributor he re-curved that worked great in my Chally. I decided to send him the one from my Charger to be re-curved. When he received it the first week of July he called me and talked me into replacing the pickup in the dizzy, one of his high output coils, and one of his new HR688 ECU boxes. He claimed the orange box I have is not made well and will pull 8 degrees of timing out above 4000 rpm. Well I decided to get the whole deal so he charged my CC the full amount and I waited for it to arrive. About 10 days later I get my dizzy back with new pickup coil installed and new coil, but no ECU and nothing noted on the paperwork. I called and was told they were on back-order. I am thinking "why did he push so hard to sell me something he did not have available"  He says wait another week and I will have it out to you. Well that did not happen and by the 1st week in August I was tired of waiting so I called to cancel and guess what - it just shipped and I should have it any day.  Well sure enough it showed up priority mail a few days later. I could not wait to hook everything up so I connected everything and the engine would not start. No spark. Don passed me over to one of his techs and I tested everything he asked me to. He had me pull the box apart and I found a GM HEI module inside the HR688 with the 4 wires hooked to it. Everything tested good and he asked me to take the GM HEI module to a local parts store to verify it worked. I could not find any parts stores that could test these $25 modules, so I just bought one and put it inside his ECU case. Still no engine start.
I could repeatedly swap the orange box and his GM ECU and the engine would fire right off with the orange box, but no spark with the GM part. I guess my Charger was just not happy with this foreign part on it. 
He asked me to send both GM modules back for him to test. (at my expense) They came back to me as as testing good, but still my engine would not start with his ECU. I swapped to a parts store blue ECU I have as a spare and of course the engine would fire right off and run. Don insisted that I had bad pin connections or a bad harness. I told him my harness was 2 years old from Bill Evens and I was very careful with pin connections and verified them with my ohm meter. I got fed up and returned his ECU and asked for a refund. I then followed up with a email asking him if he received it and this was his response -
   I'll refund your money only because we need the module for another customer as we still can't produce enough to meet demand but I want it to be clear that this is not a module issue.
That was on August 29th and after repeated requests since then for my refund - Nothing     Finally I decided to turn it over to my credit card company to try to get my promised refund. I guess this can take 6-8 weeks so I don't know how this will be resolved.
This whole deal has left me with a very bad impression of how Don at FBO Systems handles product and customer issues. Maybe there is nothing wrong with his ECU, but my engine just won't run with it on the car.
Am I wrong to feel this way?

seems like you proved the point

[mauve66]

What bothers me is the fact it seems like this magic box is simply inexpensive gm unit in a mopar box and maybe it should be labeled as such. It would be nice if it was stated that this isn't really something special just a gm unit in a mopar case. 

According to Don it's not, and it doesn't operate like one either, it just happens to look similar to one, but you would have to ask him yourself for further explination or perhaps a better description. He also stated that most of the cost for the unit is tied up in the billet Mopar style box, and not the part that's in it.

he specifically told him to go get another one from the parts store, told him it would work the same and then had them shipped back to him to be tested and said they both worked

[Musicman]

he specifically told him to go get another one from the parts store, told him it would work the same and then had them shipped back to him to be tested

Nope...

he asked me to take the GM HEI module to a local parts store to verify it worked. I could not find any parts stores that could test these $25 modules, so I just bought one and put it inside his ECU case. Still no engine start.

If it was just a GM unit as you imply, then the second "GM Unit" should have fixed the issue, but it didn't did it...

I have no ides if it's a GM unit or not.. I'm just asking for proof positive before you go bashing someones good name.

[Charger_Dart]

My post was meant to be more about customer service and following through on promises then whether or not Don uses GM HEI units in his new boxes.
I have no idea if he puts some special programming into them or not. What I can tell you is that they look exactly the same as any other GM HEI module and are even marked with the C B W G next to the 4 pins. It hooks up the same as all the internet postings for Mopar HEI conversions and it looks like this:


From what I have read, most people who run this type of conversion seem to like it. I would have no problem with it in my car if it would start and run. I have had several ballast resistors die on me at the worst times and would love to be able to run my car without one because it seems to be a weakness in the design. Oh well, guess I will have to continue to run a BR.     

[b5blue]

I got your point right away on that, seems this topic has ignited a debate over ignition choices.   

[mauve66]

First I want to say I am not a big fan of bashing the vendors who take on making products for our Mopar's, but at the same time I think its a good idea to share experiences with vendors.

Don at FBO Systems seems to really know his Mopar's and makes some pretty good stuff, but I just don't get why he has treated me so poorly.

My story goes like this - I have a distributor he re-curved that worked great in my Chally. I decided to send him the one from my Charger to be re-curved. When he received it the first week of July he called me and talked me into replacing the pickup in the dizzy, one of his high output coils, and one of his new HR688 ECU boxes. He claimed the orange box I have is not made well and will pull 8 degrees of timing out above 4000 rpm. Well I decided to get the whole deal so he charged my CC the full amount and I waited for it to arrive. About 10 days later I get my dizzy back with new pickup coil installed and new coil, but no ECU and nothing noted on the paperwork. I called and was told they were on back-order. I am thinking "why did he push so hard to sell me something he did not have available"  He says wait another week and I will have it out to you. Well that did not happen and by the 1st week in August I was tired of waiting so I called to cancel and guess what - it just shipped and I should have it any day.  Well sure enough it showed up priority mail a few days later. I could not wait to hook everything up so I connected everything and the engine would not start. No spark. Don passed me over to one of his techs and I tested everything he asked me to. He had me pull the box apart and I found a GM HEI module inside the HR688 with the 4 wires hooked to it. Everything tested good and he asked me to take the GM HEI module to a local parts store to verify it worked. I could not find any parts stores that could test these $25 modules, so I just bought one and put it inside his ECU case. Still no engine start.
I could repeatedly swap the orange box and his GM ECU and the engine would fire right off with the orange box, but no spark with the GM part. I guess my Charger was just not happy with this foreign part on it. 
He asked me to send both GM modules back for him to test. (at my expense) They came back to me as as testing good, but still my engine would not start with his ECU. I swapped to a parts store blue ECU I have as a spare and of course the engine would fire right off and run. Don insisted that I had bad pin connections or a bad harness. I told him my harness was 2 years old from Bill Evens and I was very careful with pin connections and verified them with my ohm meter. I got fed up and returned his ECU and asked for a refund. I then followed up with a email asking him if he received it and this was his response -
   I'll refund your money only because we need the module for another customer as we still can't produce enough to meet demand but I want it to be clear that this is not a module issue.
That was on August 29th and after repeated requests since then for my refund - Nothing     Finally I decided to turn it over to my credit card company to try to get my promised refund. I guess this can take 6-8 weeks so I don't know how this will be resolved.
This whole deal has left me with a very bad impression of how Don at FBO Systems handles product and customer issues. Maybe there is nothing wrong with his ECU, but my engine just won't run with it on the car.
Am I wrong to feel this way?

i would think that Don would of said "hey, whats with this GM module?" when it came back into his shop
he's not bashing his name he's stating that customer service is down the crapper, customer has proven that the item doesn't work on his car, the vendor blames the wiring harness but the wiring harness works  cause the car will fire right up with the stock box plugged into the same wires with MORE items in the mix, this should work as you are taking out extra items that may be questionable (ballast) but it doesn't
also when they were sent back to the shop for "testing" and then sent back to him as "tested fine" you would of thought that a NEW module would of come instead of the same one that didn't work to see if another one would work
yes, i have dealt with this company before and everything said here (from various posters) is true, seems to depend on the time of day, month, position of the moon, etc.........

[ACUDANUT]

My Mopar Peformance Electronic Ignition system is flawless..Forget that other crap.

If it ain't broke, don't try to fix it. 

[Charger_Dart]

My Mopar Peformance Electronic Ignition system is flawless..Forget that other crap.

If it ain't broke, don't try to fix it. 

Good point, lesson learned. I was talked into something that I did not need, and ended up not even working on my car. Caused me nothing but headaches. 

[Chryco Psycho]

I have yet to have a good experience with his parts . we swapped in his ign system & the car ran worse , as I replaced each part swapping 1 component at a time with the Mopar parts the car ran better again , tried 2 systems on different cars &  trashed both of them .
The writing was on the wall & fairly large too

[Musicman]

Charger_Dart... I may have found your problem...

I was doing a little quick research concerning GM HEI Conversions with Mopars. I already new that a Coil Change was a must, which is why Don's advertising states that his ECU must be used with his coils. But I also found a number of folks out there who were having the exact same issue as you when trying to convert a stock Mopar ignition to an HEI system using the GM Modules. First off... the Factory GM units and the cheap "overseas unit" sold at the store are not the same. They may test the same, as ALL INGITION ECU SYSTEMS DO, but they are different in terms of quality and reliability, and a number of issues have been sited with these cheap overseas units. As far as the "NO START" issue is concerned however, the piece that I have quoted below pretty much says it all, and I would be willing to bet that this was your issue since the other unit you purchased did nothing for you either. That tells you right there that the problem lies elsewhere.

Where Don is concerned... I have never had an issue with Don or his products, and to my knowledge there are a great number of posts on this site and others praising Don’s knowledge and his products. There are even more posts out there and here as well however complaining about issues with MSD ignition systems as well as the limitations and issues surrounding the stock factory Mopar systems... which is why we have aftermarket systems like MSD, Pertronix, etc in the first place. Don has always been a valuable source of quality information, especially when it comes to PROPERLY tuning engines, carburetors and ignition systems. He always has an open phone line and an on-line chat box, and has always been willing to discuss tuning issues with anyone who calls… who else does that? Yes, he can get a little testy on occasion, especially if someone starts questioning his knowledge or leading him into an area where he has a lesser degree of knowledge. Don certainly knows a lot more than most when it comes to Mopar ignition systems but he is not an electrical engineer, nor does he pretend to be one. He knows a lot about fuel systems and the properties of the fuels we use in them as well, but he is not a chemist. Generally speaking, if you come asking for advice don’t question the advice that’s given. If you don’t like it, just move on and ask the next guy what he thinks. That's how we make informed desicions.

Your issue with Don’s support is another matter entirely however. After reading everything here, and the article that I have quoted below as well, my guess would be that Don is not aware of the potential issue surrounding older Mopar wiring systems. That said… He’s testing his modules SAT before leaving house (as he always does) and your returning a module that still tests SAT out of the vehicle on a bench, so he logically assumes the problem is on your end. But as I said, he may not be aware of this issue or felt that his units were not prone to this issue if he did, but that is unlikely since he would have most certainly brought it up in conversation otherwise.

The GM HEI requires at least 11 volts to run compared to the standard MOPAR ECU ignition box and coil which requires about 8-9 volts to get it going. During normal engine operation with the GM HEI conversion, this is not a problem since all alternators are regulated to a voltage of 14.4 volts. But during start we are working off of battery power only which is roughly 12 volts. The MOPAR starter uses so much of the available energy from the battery that the GM HEI will not have enough energy to power up unless you have a new starter and/or a really good battery and/or revised wiring. The starter issue is why the standard MOPAR wiring uses a ballast resistor for the coil. You'll notice that the ballast resistor is bypassed during start through the pink wire on the starter relay. This allows the ECU to receive full voltage during start, but limits voltage to 9 volts during normal operation. (oh, if you were wondering, the standard MOPAR ignition system is rated for 9 volts, not 12 like most people think, that's why the ballast resistor is in the circuitry)
   So you might be wondering why the GM HEI doesn't have this voltage limitation in the GM vehicle it came out of. The reason is because GM's wiring is far superior to MOPAR wiring and does not suffer from voltage loss due to the wires being to small and too long. GM uses relays close to the main power splice and battery in order to power items on the electrical system with minimal wire runs. GM also uses thick wires to battle any possible voltage loss. MOPAR does not use relays, but instead routes full power through the firewall to the various switches and fuse box. With this style of wiring, there is massive voltage drop through wires that are too thin for the job, and multiple connectors within the wire runs. By the time electrical power reaches the electrical equipment at the end of the line, the signal is much degraded. This insufficient wiring issue is the same reason why your headlights are dim and your stereo amplifier most likely needs special wiring to run at full power.
    So how do you fix this wiring issue? You could swap out your starter for a new one that takes less energy, that would help. You could also rework your wiring a little to update it and beef it up. Or you could go the route I chose and use the BSA Dual Ignition Modification that allows you to start on your existing ECU ignition, but after you've got the engine started, with the flip of a switch, jump over to using the GM HEI. Info on the BSA Dual Ignition Modification can be found by following this link:
http://redneckfabrication.com/index.php?topic=920.msg8522#msg8522

Another issue to be aware of with the GM HEI is that it gets really hot during use and requires some kind of heat sink to be attached to it for proper cooling. I personally went with a little overkill and used a computer CPU heatsink on my HEI conversion , but from what I've read across the web, bolting it to a piece of sheet metal is usually good enough.

Also beware, the GM HEI NEEDS to be grounded through at least one of it's two bolt holes or it will not work. Bolting it to the firewall should be good enough, but to be sure you have a great ground, you might want to add a ground wire to one of those mount bolts and attach that ground to a known good ground source.

Beware that by just doing this conversion doesn't mean you now have a hotter spark. Here's why and how to control it, but first we need to understand basic ignition coil operation. Your coil consists of two non-connected internal coils of wire one inside the other. One is tightly wound with a ratio of turns compared to the other coil depending on the step up voltage rating of that particular coil. When the coil powers up, it creates a magnetic field around the powered internal coil. Here's where all hell breaks loose, when the ignition module gets a signal from the magnetic pickup, it breaks the ground for the powered up coil. With no ground, the circuit is broken and the magnetic field within the coil collapses. With nowhere else for the stored energy to go, it jumps through the other internal coil and out the coil wire to the distributor, ending in a spark at the tip of the spark plug. The energy that is released is directly related to the ratio of turns between the two internal coils.
    I'm not an electrical engineer, so I don't claim to understand exactly why this next part is the way it is, but it is, so here it is
The energy the coil sends is ONLY equal to how much is needed to bridge the gap in the spark plug. So it is possible that with a high energy ignition system, you will still have only a low energy spark simply because your spark plug gap is small. For example, if your ignition system is capable of producing a 45,000 volt spark, but it only takes 9,000 volts to jump the spark plug gap, then your system is only working at 9,000 volts.
   You can easily configure your new ignition system to produce a whollup of a spark simply by increasing the spark plug gap to somewhere around 0.045, compared to the standard 0.032 for most stock engines. The wider spark plug gap will require a lot more voltage for the spark to jump it, and with the GM HEI and a high energy coil like the MSD Blaster 2 installed, you will be able to produce  enough energy to do exactly that.

[Nacho-RT74]

dunno but now the doubt is seed.

and what can I say, get one kind module hidden inside another module kind box it is something fishy

[Musicman]

get one kind module hidden inside another module kind box it is something fishy

I think that's just for appearances Nacho... No Mopar guy wants a GM looking unit showing under his hood.
I've heard of some guys that did the GM conversions hiding them under the plate at the bottom of the dizzy for that very reason.

By the way... It's common knowledge that stock GM units begin failing at 5000 RPM... used with GM HP Extras they can go as high as 7000 RPM before failing.
Don's are guarranteed to 9000 RPM for 2 years... you still think their the same?

[Nacho-RT74]

maybe not, but what I said... I can get a Moroso or Accel like the links I posted, mostly sure not an stock replacement either and built them inside my stock box ( or the damaged Chromed I have )... and save lots of money for a Fancy box I don't care

[Musicman]

maybe not, but what I said... I can get a Moroso or Accel like the links I posted, mostly sure not an stock replacement either and built them inside my stock box ( or the damaged Chromed I have )... and save lots of money for a Fancy box I don't care

I hear ya brother, and I agree... as long as you don't need high RPM ignition capabilities, and you set it up correctly, wiring, heat sink, etc, that will work just fine. 

Like I said, Don openly admits that most of the money in his unit is tied up in the fancy Billet Box, and not the ECU itself. Maybe he's using the fancy box for better heat dissipation with the high rpm unit, or maybe he just felt folks wanted better quality... who knows, you'd have to ask him that question.