440 build, suggestions, ideas and vendors....

[dlo3575]

I am building a 440 for my son for his birthday. I bought a 1973 Dodge Diplomat with a 440 and pulled it and sent it to the machine shop.  They checked it out and said the block was fine and could be bored out up to .40 easily.  They also turned the crank .10 .   I am now planning the build.  Budget is not too much of a concern. However, this is for my son for his 69 Charger and I don't want to waste money either.  So I had envisioned a 440 with a aluminium heads, new six pack set-up, Edlebrock intake, re-using the crank if possible, and a mild cam upgrade that will give the motor plenty of power - without the rough idle vaccum issues, and I suppose the rest will be new components.  I

I am not a MOPAR guy, so all of this is new to me.  So I would really appreciate some ideas, suggestions and vendors from some of you seasoned MOPAR guys, who probably built dozens of 440's. So please zip me your ideas and suggestions. i will try and upload some pics of the block numbers and crank.....

[dlo3575]

see below for pics:

[dlo3575]

pic

[dlo3575]

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[Brightyellow69rtse]

thats one hell of a present! i got an alternator one year for my birthday. it was from cap lol it wasnt even cool

[dlo3575]

Yeah right?  He's my pride and joy.  Good kid.  Been cutting grass since he was 13 to buy this car. Now Dad is going to help finish it.  He turns 16 in two months.....

[dodgedarren]

Edelbrock performer series top end kit

[Chryco Psycho]

for the cost of a stroker kit I would do that , you will get a new steel crank not the cast one you have + you can increase to 512 CI . The 440 source kit can be purchased balanced & complete for under 2 k , you need to go through all the parts as it goes together , Muscle Motors can supply a similar kit for similar cost I believe & I have dealt them them a lot . ALum heads first you get what you pay for lower cost less bang for the $ , you need to compensate & build an 11:1 compression engine to make up for the heat loss to alum , it will still be a pump gas build . Make sure you use a closed chamber head & clearance it for quench & use cometic gaskets so the gaskets will not fail over time .
I would pass on the 6 pack , you will have better drivability & more power using a Holley Street Dom intake or the Eddy RPM & a good 4 bbl carb like the Proform 850 . CAm choice will be critical as always & I would suggest that Lunati, Crower  & a couple others make a far better Mopar cam than Comp .
Look at Indy for heads , the small port  EZ would work well

[RECHRGD]

"he turns 16 in two months"  Why not throw a nice 318 in there to learn to drive with and let him spend a year or two helping build the monster engine.  That way he might make it to 17. Bob

[dlo3575]

my boy has been driving since he was 13.  We live in the country.  We have been slowly working on his car for the last 3 years.  He has a lot of sweat equity in this car.  Hoepfully he will treat the car better since he has worked so hard for it. 

Anyone of you got some great 440 vendors.....

[Challenger340]

Whats the Budget........and what power levels are desired....

Sometimes the well priced Stroker kits are not so cost effective, once ALL the factors to a successful build according to what you really WANT or NEED are accounted for......

Sorry for the thread Hijack.....this could turn into a seperate thread all by itself......but nonetheless,
IMO,
there are issues to the FINAL product far beyond just go BUY a Stroker Kit.....and the REAL COSTS associated with those Stroker Kits....





 

[dlo3575]

The total budget was not to exceed 6K.  I already have block.  The rest is up in the air.  I was hoping not to do a stoker motor.  If the motor got close to 450+ HP, I would be happy.  I think a 440 bored .30 over with Stealth heads along with new pistons and a decent cam should be able to acheive that?  no?  Need some good build ideas.........

[Chryco Psycho]

Often the cost of re machining the crank rods & replacing the pistons + balancing will exceed the cost of a stroker kit with all new parts already balanced , yes there is some cost to fitting the stroker kit but there is cost to fitting any new pistons . The only reason I suggest this is because you have the cast crank now which will live at the power you want but usually down the road you will want to modify it & make more power , it is cheaper to build it once with the best parts possible & swap cam or heads later .
I have had no problems with the 440 source stroker kits & you can get the heads there as well , you just need to clearance the brgs for the extra radius of the cranks mains & throws & double check the machining .
I Use Lunati Voodoo cams & can help you  choose one or you can call them directly

[miller]

"he turns 16 in two months"  Why not throw a nice 318 in there to learn to drive with and let him spend a year or two helping build the monster engine.  That way he might make it to 17. Bob

Agreed, I learned how to drive at an early age too, was the best in my class during drivers training, but that doesn't mean I didn't go out and do stupid stuff the first year I got my license. Luckily I only had a Dodge Neon and the Charger was restrained with a 318, 904 transmission and 8 1/4 rear end with open 2.77 gears. Otherwise, I can tell you right now both the Charger and I would be dead. 318s can still sound good with headers and squawk the tires, but he won't go out and get himself killed with it.

We ended up putting a mildly built 440 in the Charger as a graduation gift between my father and I, and I will say, 2-3 years will make all the difference in the world for a teenage boys maturity.

Please, I know you love your kid, but I know you would love to have him around in a few years rather than give him have the fastest car in town.

[dodgedarren]

"he turns 16 in two months"  Why not throw a nice 318 in there to learn to drive with and let him spend a year or two helping build the monster engine.  That way he might make it to 17. Bob

I agree with Bob. His brain fully developed and it would be way to much power for a teenage kid with half a brain.

[Musicman]

The first thing you need to decide is what rpm range you want the engine to perform in, as well as the intended use. From there you can start looking at possible cam choices, and then start looking at the support items and making desicions that will ultimately get you where you want to be.

[Challenger340]

The total budget was not to exceed 6K.  I already have block.  The rest is up in the air.  I was hoping not to do a stoker motor.  If the motor got close to 450+ HP, I would be happy.  I think a 440 bored .30 over with Stealth heads along with new pistons and a decent cam should be able to acheive that?  no?  Need some good build ideas.........

You are absolutely correct that 450, even 500hp is easily attainable with just the basics on your current core engine, and yes, you have the basics correct in Cam, Heads, Pistons, and well under $6K.

You will need access to a "reputable" Machine Shop obviously, to perform some basic Machining operations competently, IMO, "best" accessed if they offer a "Block Machine Pkg" including the following;
* Hot Tank Block
* R & R Cam brgs, Frost & Gallery Plugs
* Bore & Hone V-8, Torque Plate preffered
* Surface Block equal & square
* Check mainline with main studs installed, adjust as req'd(see parts list below)
* Connecting Rods resized with ARP Rod Bolts(after the old Pistons are pressed off)
* Pin-fitting on the new Pistons for .001" Clearance on the wrist pins, leave the Rod small ends press-fit.
* get as much of the "Tin" parts from the core Engine cleaned at the same time as the Block is Hot-Tanked

* Balancing of the Rotating Assembly, done with your External Harmonic Balancer, but have the weight on the rear welded to your flexplate instead of the Convertor so you can use "0" balance Torque Convertor later.

Parts suggestions:
* Icon Forged Flat Top Pistons & Ring Kit(for the stock 1.094 Pins)
* Clevitte Rod & Main Brgs, have the Shop install their preffered Cam Brgs
* Overhaul Gasket set
* New Melling Oil Pump(HV Preffered)
* ARP Main Studs(optional, see above labor)
* Decent Quality Timing Chain & Gearset
* Windage Tray kit from mopar performance(optional)
* Stealth heads are fine, but have the hardware "upgraded".
* Adjustable Rocker Arms & matched pushrods(highly suggested)
* Performer RPM Intake Manifold / Carb is preference
* Hemi style capacity pan from Mopar Performance(optional but nicer)

There are a number of Camshafts that can be used, but even a lowly xe284h hydraulic flat tappet from CompCams will yield in excess of 500hp/Trq, although better out there, just how much power you want, although the 284 will be all done by 53-5400rpm on the Dyno which is a nice reliable shift point of 5500rpm for the stock parts.
Run an extra 1/2 quart of Oil in the pan.

YES, the Cast Crank will live FINE !
YES, the stock Rods are MORE than reliable under 6K.
YES, you will be surprised how many Giants you will slay.....

On another note;
I build Competition Engines for a living.
Anybody who has regularily attended or competed at the "Mopars at the Strip" show in Las Vegas yearly has either watched, or competed against my Engines, usually in the FINALS, which I am obviously proud of.....
The above stated for the record........
I DISAGREE wholeheartedly with the contention that "Strokers are Cheaper".

But that would entail another thread all by itself...........

[dlo3575]

Thank you VERY much for the advice on the motor build.  It is exactly what I was looking for from the forum.  I want to clarify a few things...

1.  The crank I have is Cast?  Is that really that bad?

2.  I assume I can use the crank and existing rods.  I need to buy the pistons and upgrade the rod bolts. Where do i buy them?

3.  Should I port the Stealth heads for some easy HP gain?  Can I use regular headers on these heads?

4.  Can I have the block and other engine tin powder coated?  If so, when is a good time to do it?

5.  Can I do the six setup?  Is it that tweaky?  I think it would be really cool, but I have heard they are a bitch to tune......

Once again.  I REALLY appreciate your advice. It is the best feedback i have gotten yet.  I am curious about cam choice. I need a smooth one but one that will add HP.   I fear my machine shop is not a MOPAR expert.  Is there anything i should have him do that he may overlook?  Thanks so much!

[Musicman]

Personally, I would forgo the Comp Cams XE284H and look for something better, perhaps the HEH2328 from Hughes Engines. While both of these cams will provide similar top end performance, the HEH2328 should provide a significant increase in power at the lower end, while maintaining a higher vacuum level for power accessories. I'm a big fan of the Lunati VooDoo cams myself, but in this particular instance I would have to give Hughes the nod.

The Stealth heads from 440 Source are fine, but 440 Source wisely recommends an upgraded to 10 degree locks & keepers on all heads when using a cam that has greater than .510 lift.

Cast Crank is stronger than you think and more than adequate for a street machine.

Six Packs are cool period! These days you can get the originals with a lot of little add-ons to reduce the initial pains of the tuning process, and once set your good to go.

[Challenger340]

read Musicman's post....
Yes, your Crank is Cast and must use external Balancing when done, however fine for this build.

I only used the xe284 Cam as an "example" of power to be expected after having Dyno'd similar combos using it, FAR BETTER Cams out there from Hughes and Lunati that you investigate for idle Quality, etc., etc. for what you want in a final product.

Yes, you can use your existing Crank, and Rods resized with the addition of ARP Rod Bolts.

ANY of the following part #'s should be available from either Jegs or Summit online.

Purchase Forged Pistons & Rings, "Icon" part # IC968KTD in either .030 or .055 oversize depending upon "where" your Cylinders clean up after rough boring. see here http://www.kb-silvolite.com/icon/icon.php?action=details&P_id=583
or, as a cheaper alternative....
Hypereutectic Pistons from Keith Black under part#KB237, again, FINAL bore size must be known after rough boring PRIOR to purchase for a known oversize ie; .030, .040, 055.
see here http://www.kb-silvolite.com/kb_car/performance.php?action=details&P_id=30

BOTH of the above part #'s are for your 1.094" Pins compatible for your stock rods.

ARP Rod Bolts are part #145-6002

Porting the Stealth Heads at a DIY level is a waste of time IMO.
Some cleanup of the port window itself for cosmetics is OK(looks prettier, makes you feel good, but doesn't do much).
The REAL gains to be had in the Stealths are more in the Siamesed port wall, and the divergence angle to the short turn & bowl, which should not be undertaken without experience AND a Flowbench, again IMO.
Anyways, plenty of Flow for your power levels "out of the box".
Make sure you get the upgraded Hardware when purchasing(Retainers, Locks)
Yes, Stealth Heads use std 440 Headers as far as I know.

I am not a Fan of powder coating Blocks for cooling reasons, NOT that it can't be done, just I suspect the added expense and CLEANING after is not worth the time ?
rest of the parts are OK.

6 pak setups are OK, but probably NOT in your Budget ?

I thought this was a "Budget" 440 500hp build using stock parts ? .......
and,
....... here you go talking $3500 6 Pak setups, and Powder Coating Blocks ?

Whats up with that ?

FIND a "Performance" Engine Machine Shop, familiar with BLUEPRINTING Race Engines, and it shouldn't matter what brand Engine comes through the door.
THAT,
is where you should spend the Money, instead of the "Bling Bling" powder coating and 6 Paks setups.(IMO)

[Musicman]

Yes, Stealth Heads use std 440 Headers.

FIND a "Performance" Engine Machine Shop, familiar with BLUEPRINTING Race Engines, and it shouldn't matter what brand Engine comes through the door.
THAT, is where you should spend the Money, instead of the "Bling Bling" powder coating and 6 Paks setups.(IMO)

Priorities first!

[dlo3575]

Many thanks to you fine folks out there in MOPAR land. Your ideas and comments have been very helpful.

As for the "bling" (I hate that word): my son had wanted a powder coated block. I figured better to do it now than later. As for the build $$, the 6k is more or less a ball park. Fortunately for my son, dad has a couple of coins, so I just assume build this block right the first time and be done with it. So I ask a lot of questions, take it all in and try to execute a plan that will meet most of the objectives of an ecellent built motor at a reasonable price. I think if I re use the crank and rods, as well as stealth heads instead of Indy, I will save 2k and still have pretty damn good motor! It will make a great birthday present. Better than what I got on my 16th birthday, $300 towards a yellow Chevy Luv, which I had to make monthly payments on until I was 18!!

Couple of quick questions:

Is a powder coated block a pain to keep clean? I was hoping a glossy black would hold up well. What say you?

[Musicman]

Why would you want to powder coat an engine block

If you want glossy black, just paint it glossy black with a good quality engine paint... Paint can be touched up or repaired real easy and real cheap.

[Challenger340]

Why would you want to powder coat an engine block

If you want glossy black, just paint it glossy black with a good quality engine paint... Paint can be touched up or repaired real easy and real cheap.

Good Advice ! Spray Bomb or hand paint it with Por15 Black.

[dlo3575]

I went ahead and ordered my engine build today.  I bought the following:

200-1055   Stealth Aluminum Cylinder Head     2.00 $    497.5000      0 $   995.00
            - COMPLETE - SINGLE HEAD
   
109-1514   Bolt Kit - Cylinder Head 12pt.          1.00 $     48.9500      0 $    48.95

6760.990.2 H Beam Connecting Rods w/ ARP     1.00 $    499.9500      0 $   499.95

375.8740-H8740 Bolts                   
4000       Platinum Series Pistons - 4.35            1.00 $    599.0000      0 $   599.00
           0  -4 FT                     
CR6490-35  Total Seal Moly File Fit Rings          1.00 $    109.9500      0 $   109.95
            - 4.350"                     
145-1002   Comp Cams "Super Lock" 11/32"       1.00 $     29.9500      0 $    29.95
           10 deg. Valve Locks           
145-1003   Comp Cams "Super Lock" Steel R      1.00 $     59.9500      0 $    59.95
           etainers - Set of 16         

I

[dlo3575]

I also decided to save a couple of bucks and re-use the cast crank.  I think I need to start thinking about a cam, lifters and pushrods.  Now 440 Source said that their heads may have some clearance issuse on the their push rods on the exhaust ports.  i think i need to explore that a bit.  I wonder if there is anythong else that I need to think about?  Y'all got any ideas.

[Musicman]

Now 440 Source said that their heads may have some clearance issuse on the their push rods on the exhaust ports.  i think i need to explore that a bit. 

I know for a fact that the 440Source heads can have a pushrod clearance issue in cases where a lift ratio greater than the stock 1.5 is used, but I've never personally heard of an issue here when running stock. In either case its just a simple matter of clearing that area of the passage with a burring bit or a file if it was necessary... plenty of meat there. I ran a 1.6 ratio rocker on mine so I had to clear most of them at least a little bit anyway. Of course I knew ahead of time that this would more than likely be the case, so it was no big deal, I expected it... Budget Heads at Budget Prices. They could do it themselves but the added cost would get passed on to the consumer, so I guess the way they see it is... if you don't have any issues 99% of the time, why do it.

I wonder if they'll have the same issue with their new "Super Stealth" heads? Myself, I would say probably yes since it's basically identical to the Stealth, at least on the outside anyway... the inside is quite different.

[Chryco Psycho]

you will need the offset intake rocker wit the Super Stealths

[Musicman]

you will need the offset intake rocker wit the Super Stealths

That's the facts Jack!

[dlo3575]

Spoke to machine shop today when picking up my LCA's (got the bushings yanked out for $10-best $$ ever spent).  He confirmed what so many of y'all said: Do not powder coat the block.  He was concerned about heat.  He said to just paint it.  SO I relented....

Just waiting for my box from 444 Source to get here....