Another WWII aircraft goes down, this time taking out several air show fans

[bull]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/44556695/ns/us_news-life/?gt1=43001

The Galloping Ghost P51 does a nosedive into the crowd at the Reno Air Races, killing the pilot, two fans (so far) and injuring 75.

It's circled in this pic below from video someone shot just before it hit the deck:

[twodko]

RIP.

[hemi-hampton]

Pilot was 74 years old. I wonder if he could drive car?

[bull]

Pilot was 74 years old. I wonder if he could drive car?

They kept saying he was 80 in those news videos. Well, it was either he or the plane that failed and I kind of suspect it was the plane. Either way I doubt there's enough left of either one of them to figure out which one caused it.

EDIT: Yea, now I see stories that put the number injured at 56 and that the pilot was 74 like you said.

[tan top]

Pilot was 74 years old. I wonder if he could drive car?

makes you wonder !!

thats sad RIP  ,  if he was that age !!! wonder if he had a black out , with the G forces in turning & stuff   although  might have well been  mechanical fault 

[Tilar]

Man thats bad. I doubt he would have blacked out. His medical records were all up to date according to the news. I'd guess something happened to the controls, maybe linkage or something to do with the elevator.

[Brock Samson]

 He called in a MAYDAY and wrestled the plane further from the stands - front row spectators say they thought they saw him exerting tremendous effort on the stick...

[Troy]

Sad all around. The pilot not only has to pass the regular FAA medical exams but also needs to pass special training/tests to compete in the races. I'm sure he wasn't the typical 74 year old driving 50 in the fast lane with pop bottle glasses and molasses like reflexes. The plane is hardly stock. Those things are highly customized race-only machines and see constant maintenance/inspection. However, when you flying at max performance close to the ground and spectators things can go wrong in a hurry.

One article I read was saying that it looked like the plane lost a trim tab on the tail. I can clearly see the left elevator trim tab is missing in these photos:
http://news.yahoo.com/photos/air-race-crash-in-reno-1316226189-slideshow/;_ylt=ArYHZV5slC59u7FTD0JrUWBtzwcF;_ylu=X3oDMTQ3cDRycjFkBG1pdANVUyBGZWF0dXJlZCBMZWZ0IFJhaWwEcGtnA2Q3N2I5N2NlLTJjNWUtMzNiYi1iOGViLTZjMjdlMzJhZjcyYQRwb3MDMQRzZWMDTWVkaWFGZWF0dXJlZExpc3QEdmVyA2MwZTM4YTJhLWUxMmUtMTFlMC05OWU5LTBmYmJhYTk1ODkyZg--;_ylg=X3oDMTJyMWViZ3AwBGludGwDdXMEbGFuZwNlbi11cwRwc3RhaWQDNzY4NTQxNDUtMDBiNC0zMTc1LTk2ZGUtYmU5NTFmYTkwNWIxBHBzdGNhdAN1cwRwdANzdG9yeXBhZ2UEdGVzdAM-;_ylv=3#crsl=%252Fphotos%252Fair-race-crash-in-reno-1316226189-slideshow%252Fp-51-mustang-airplane-shown-upside-down-crashing-photo-031625912.html

Troy

[bobs66440]

Very sad all around...

[bajaherbie]

those reno air racers are just crazy IMO... guy probably had a grin on his face.

aren't those p-51's worth at least a million bucks? i think jack roush of nascar fame has a p-51 in one of his many hangars!


my dad flew B-24 Liberators in WW2 as a navy pilot.. learned to fly in a Stearman bi-plane and eventually was on german submarine patrol while based somewhere in england.

[Brock Samson]

 While on the subject,  a great read on the subject is here..
   http://tonetcarlo.wordpress.com/2009/11/29/no-visible-horizon/

[68RRFlyer]

those reno air racers are just crazy IMO... guy probably had a grin on his face.

[/b]

You care to elaborate some more on this tasteless remark please?

[bull]

those reno air racers are just crazy IMO... guy probably had a grin on his face.

[/b]

You care to elaborate some more on this tasteless remark please?

Not trying to defend anyone because the remark can go either way, but I assume he meant that the pilot was having a ball BEFORE things went horribly wrong.

By the way, the death toll is up to 9 now. I wonder how many people lost limbs, eyes, etc. What a mess.

[bajaherbie]

sorry, no harm meant at all. bad choice of words on my part.

[68RRFlyer]

   Thanks for the clarity. 

[64dartgt]

There is a team that has a Mustang, a B-17 and B-24 coming to our area in about ten days.  You can tour the planes for about $12, go up in a bomber for about $450 or in the 2 seater Mustang for $2200.  I was talking to my Wife about how cool it would be to go up in a WW2 bomber...but this certainly is sobering.

Poor guy.  I heard he was calling out Mayday's and I am sure he did everything he could to save the fans.   

[69rtse4spd]

 ,very sad indeed, but I am sure he probably saved some lives if he was steering away from stands as best he could. 

[skip68]

This is a friend of mine. I worked for her aerobatics team when they did a convention in Reno for sponsors! But she has a home in the airpark community where i worked! Her name is Julie Clark. (check archives for her impressive history!)  Mrs.skip68

[bull]

Aside from the crash, part of me hates what these guys are doing to these old war birds. To me it's worse taking a classic Charger and modifying it to the point of nonrecognition to run in a top fuel drag race. Yea, yea, the guy owns it and he can do what he wants but these planes are a huge part of history and a war that basically saved the world. Tons of modifications were made to the Galloping Ghost, among them they cut the wingspan by 10 feet, they trimmed the ailerons by nearly 30 inches and then they run these planes nearly 100 mph faster than they were capable of in the 1940s. I agree that outside a museum they are kind of useless if they aren't being flown, like a trailer queen Charger, but on the other hand is it any better to carve them up to the point they have become something else?

[Drache]

wasnt there a P51 that crashed at reno back in 2010?

[Troy]

wasnt there a P51 that crashed at reno back in 2010?

Even this particular P51 has crashed at Reno before (a long time ago). It happens. P51s are popular for racing and there have been a lot of crashes so it wouldn't surprise me if there have been several P51s that have crashed at Reno.

Most of the articles I have read prove that the reporters know little or nothing about air racing so some of the "facts" that they find important to tell the world (ie hype) aren't really that big of a deal. Yes, the plane was modified. It races in the "Unlimited" class so it and every other plane it races against very heavily modified (Formula One racing in the sky basically). The plane has been modified for racing since 1946 when it was bought as surplus from the government. So basically, it hasn't really been "stock" since then (and possibly not even during war time if it saw any action). There are stock classes in air racing but this isn't one of those.

Troy

Troy

[bull]

I wonder how many wartime P51s are left?

This is somewhat random but the sound of those supercharged V-1650 Merlin engines is super-sexy. I still prefer the sound of a throaty V8 but the Merlin V12 is a very close 2nd.

[Troy]

I wonder how many wartime P51s are left?

Here, you can count them (not sure if they are all listed but it's pretty comprehensive):
http://www.warbirdregistry.org/p51registry/p51registry.html

In 2007 one of the sites dedicated to them showed 156 flyable, 57 static, 51 under restoration, and 21 in storage. This is their current list:
http://www.mustangsmustangs.com/p-51/p51survivors/?lid=54814680&page=List_with_Pics

Not all of those are flyable - you have to look at the details of each.

Troy

[bull]

In 2007 one of the sites dedicated to them showed 156 flyable, 57 static, 51 under restoration, and 21 in storage. This is their current list:
http://www.mustangsmustangs.com/p-51/p51survivors/?lid=54814680&page=List_with_Pics

Not all of those are flyable - you have to look at the details of each.

Troy

Wow, that's a lot less than I thought there would be. I figured there must be 1,500 or a couple thousand of them still around.

Makes me wonder how many Spitfires are left now. I wonder if the Brits get as crazy about those as we do about the Mustangs? The Mustang is a lot better looking IMO.

[Ponch ®]

Looks like there will now be 10 empty chairs at the breakfast table.

Whatever the cause of the accident turns out to be (mechanical failure, pilot error, etc) I don't think a 74 year old has ANY business flying a plane, let alone the equivalent, as Troy said, of a Formula 1 car.

I say this every time the "should old people be allowed to drive" topic comes up: set a maximum age (in fact, the FAA already does for commercial pilots) at which their driving / flying privilege gets taken away, regardless of whether they're not your "typical" 74 year old. I know it seems draconian, but we have to have to some sort of limit. Think of it the other way around: I'm sure there are quite a few 11 year olds capable of driving a car far more responsibly than a lot of adults, but no one ever argues that they should be given a license and be allowed on to drive on public roads because they're not "typical' 11 year olds - they still have to wait til they're 16 to get their license.

[Troy]

You have to remember that there was a HUGE surplus of aircraft after the war and a shortage of just about all materials (steel, aluminum, etc.) - probably from a making all the Jeeps, planes, ships, and tanks! However, they were so good that the US was still flying them in battle in Korea with the last being retired in 1957 so that probably saved a lot of them from being scrapped. There were 16,766 Mustangs built (8,156 P-51D variants) which means about 1% are still flyable (not bad for a 66+ year old plane). They are expensive and can be a handful to fly (they are fighters after all). Certainly not a plane the average private pilot will have in their hangar.

Spitfires are popular. Here's a list of them:
http://www.deltaweb.co.uk/spitfire/preserve.htm

Troy

[64dartgt]

As a pilot, I am sure the 74 year old had to have a physical and that his plane had to have FAA certification to fly as well.  What may be an issue is that the guy did some modifications for speed (decrease wing and tail sizes) which may have contributed to another P51 crash in the past.  There were a number of FAA and NTSB at the race who witnessed the crash, so I think they will have a leg up on sorting it out.

[bull]

Well, just like Chargers, if they knew what they would be worth they wouldn't have scrapped them. But then if they hadn't scrapped so many they wouldn't be worth as much.

[hemigeno]

My Dad mentioned today that a rumor making the rounds now is that the seatback either broke, or the seat slid back on its tracks causing the pilot to lose contact with the controls.

Just a rumor, carry on.

[Troy]

My Dad mentioned today that a rumor making the rounds now is that the seatback either broke, or the seat slid back on its tracks causing the pilot to lose contact with the controls.

Just a rumor, carry on.

It would seem odd to have a movable seat on a racing plane (or car). Those are built around the pilot and weight is trimmed wherever possible. The seat back doesn't recline either - but I suppose it could have broken nonetheless.

Besides, neither of those explain the missing trim tab.
There's a good picture of what I mentioned earlier:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/44556695/ns/us_news-life/t/death-toll-rises-reno-air-show-crash/

And this video has a shot of the tab coming off:
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=47e_1316499019

Troy

[Ponch ®]

i still say he stepped on the gas instead of the brake pedal.

[Drache]

This was posted by a member at another forum I'm a member of. Taken Friday Morning at the Reno Race:

[bull]

My Dad mentioned today that a rumor making the rounds now is that the seatback either broke, or the seat slid back on its tracks causing the pilot to lose contact with the controls.

Just a rumor, carry on.

It would seem odd to have a movable seat on a racing plane (or car). Those are built around the pilot and weight is trimmed wherever possible. The seat back doesn't recline either - but I suppose it could have broken nonetheless.

I thought that one pic from your link on the first page was odd because you can't see him in the cockpit. Where is he? If you look at the pic above it doesn't look like there's a whole lot of room to hide in there and yet there's no sign of him.

And by the way, why is the rear landing gear down? I wonder if he tried to deploy the wheels when he got into trouble.

[Drache]

And by the way, why is the rear landing gear down? I wonder if he tried to deploy the wheels when he got into trouble.

Most likely the massive g-forces that plane was subjected to caused the rear landing gear failure. At the speeds that plane was going the pilot wouldn't have enough time to even think about lowering the gear.

It's not a big deal that the gear was down since many P-51's had problems with the rear landing gear retracting and even up into the 50's some of the P-51s were modified to have static rear landing gear.

Now it has been speculated that the pilot passed out for some reason and the plane went out of control causing massive g-forces to damage the tail trim.

[bull]

Ok, I'll buy that.

But where's the pilot in that picture? At that angle of decent and speed he should have been pinned to the seat back.

[Troy]

I found this (plausible sounding) explanation elsewhere:
http://forum.keypublishing.co.uk/showpost.php?p=1803173&postcount=149

Troy

[Ponch ®]

Now it has been speculated that the pilot passed out for some reason

...hmmm maybe that he was old?

[Troy]

Now it has been speculated that the pilot passed out for some reason

...hmmm maybe that he was old?

Probably because of the near instantaneous 10gs... you wouldn't fare any better.

Troy

[bull]

I found this (plausible sounding) explanation elsewhere:
http://forum.keypublishing.co.uk/showpost.php?p=1803173&postcount=149

Troy

Evidentally that guy is speculating that the pilot's seat broke from the G-forces and either pushed him behind or below his correct sitting position. So from that I take it he must have been stuffed halfway inside the fuselage somewhere when that pic was taken? Am I reading that right? If so it's a pretty crazy story but you know what they say, "when you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth." Even without a trim tab it's pretty hard to fly if you can't reach the controls.The guy didn't just disappear so he's somewhere inside the plane. Weird.

[64dartgt]

Did you see the video of the crash?  Some idiot seemed to be cheering as the plane crashed!  He had his arms up signalling a touchdown or something!   

[Ponch ®]

The guy didn't just disappear so he's somewhere inside the plane. Weird.

Ever seen a septuagenarian behind the wheel of his/her '95 Buick Roadmaster? Me neither.

Did you see the video of the crash?  Some idiot seemed to be cheering as the plane crashed!  He had his arms up signalling a touchdown or something!  

not necessarily. that can also be a "Oh my God...WTF just happened" gesture.

[Vainglory, Esq.]

i still say he stepped on the gas instead of the brake pedal.

Nonsense.  There wasn't a farmer's market in sight.