69 Road Runner completely dead , help me diagnose problem.

[1Bad70Charger]

Thank you for the great info gentleman off to Mopar Mechanic tommorrow and should have a dx pretty soon. I will post up what the issue is.

VERY FRUSTRATING to me that I had the engine builder here yesterday who built the car, and he did not know enough about Mopar B Bodies, to know that he just had to drop the steering column to get the instrument panel off!

That's what I get for not going with a Mopar Expert!  

[Rolling_Thunder]

where are you located anyway ?   

[1Bad70Charger]

where are you located anyway ?  

Chicago, I see your in L.A.  unfortunately for me!!

[Rolling_Thunder]

yeah -  if you were closer i would just come over and fix whatever it was for you     

[FLG]

A simple fix if its the amp meter (no cluster removal required)

With the battery disconnected, remove the two wires going to the amp meter (there both hot) and connect them together with a nut and bolt...making sure you than insulate the bolt so it cannot come in contact with any other metal part...see what happens. If everything works your amp meter is the problem and by doing that you just eliminated it (ran my car like that). imo id run a volt meter instead...this does not require all the cars electronics to pass through it to get a reading unlike the amp meter.

[Chryco Psycho]

or better yet just cut a piece of sheet metal to jump both terminals on the ammeter & leave the wires connected to the studs where they cannot short on anything

[Brass]

I have both wires connected to the same post at the back of the ammeter.  Solid connection, stable - no current passing through the gauge.  Easy.

[FLG]

Both better ideas 

[69rtmuscle]

I had a similar problem, and all it was was the foot switch for the high beams.

[BigBlockSam]

 

[1Bad70Charger]

HAVE updated news, good news and bad news.

Good News, Car is fixed (for now) without a real headache involved. Local Mopar Mechanic removed the instrument panel and saw that all wires looked fine, have to double check if he found a loose wire or not he was vague about that.  

We both agreed to by pass the ammeter which he did and the headlights were fixed by replacing both halogen bulbs that burnt out at the same time (he thinks b/c of some power surge).

Bad news, I told him it was EXTREMELY important to me to pinpoint what the cause of this failure but these guys just do what they want to do, and he said all the wiring looked fine, no burnts wires, etc., so he just fixed the problem and that's that, and did not have to replace any wires or parts (other than said headlights).  I told him to fix anything else that looked shaky wiring wise,  etc., and he said everything looked normal to him.

This does not leave my much confidence for the future, especially when the headlights have to be used, but it is what it is and if this happens again I will be EXTREMELY AGGRAVATED!!   He gave me the impression that the ammeter did not necessarily take a dump, but for future reference I have an aftermarket volt meter and the ammeter gauge has been flying around in a thousand directions, so we both agreed to by pass to keep that from being a future problem.

Thoughts on what caused this now that we have a little more information?   Also, all the info I have so far from said mechanic is posted in this thread so I won't be able to answer any other questions regarding the repair.

Thanks guys!  

[b5blue]

Just so you understand....
  The Amp gauge only tracked the flow between the Alt. and the battery. Battery low it will track Alt. output (quantity) going too battery and read negative, the lower voltage is in the battery the greater the reading as the Alt. feeds the battery. The gauge only read a reaction bip as you turn on more accessory's like headlights, wipers and blower motor as the regulator adjusted Alt. output to feed the new load demand created by turning something on. The gauge does not track total Amp output as many believe as there is a main junction/splice just prior to the gauge that feeds the entire cars electrical system. A "jumping Amp gauge" has me suspecting one or more bad ground straps someplace or a loose 12V+ connection. Check grounds, all of them and check Alt. connections so you know they are clean and tight fitting.
  I'm telling you this from first hand experience, I run a 120 Amp Denso Alt. on my car now after years of watching my gauge swing back and forth drawing power from the battery at idle due to low idle output then leap back as RPM's increased and Alt. output increased. Now the gauge reads negative briefly replacing the amps used to start the engine then returns to center as the battery "tops up". I can turn on everything electrical in my car and all you see on the gauge is the needle tap to positive then return to center as the regulator adjusts output to match demand. The gauge is useful as it would inform you your battery is below "par" or that your Alt. ether quit or was running away unregulated.        

[1Bad70Charger]

Things have gone from bad to worst.

To make a long story short, after picking up my car from a local Mopar Mechanic after saying my issue was fixed, on the way home I noticed the aftermarket sun tach was jumping around abnormally, and my aftermarket volt meter was pegged all the way to the right overcharging at 16 v.     While cruising along the highway at 55 mph and about 3000 rpm I noticed the car seemed to be breaking up and not running smooth at all, when it then died 5 minutes later, right after I was surronded by several semi trucks and made it to a highway exit ramp and pulled on the shoulder.  

The car fired right back up and drove it a few blocks into a school parking lot when it died again.  Fired up again also and I shut it off and called for the tow truck to return to the freaking mechanic (who should have noticed the voltmeter was showing the car was overcharging, and if he took it on an adequate test run should have also noticed that something was off the way the car was running (like it was missing with an igntion problem).  Keep in mind all eletrical gauges, lights, horns, were working fine, other than tach bouncing around abnormally and the volt meter being all the way over the right (at 16 v).

Before I left he informed me I would be good to go after he did the following:

1. Replaced both halogen headlights which both blew out at the same time the first night I got home and lost all power after coming home from cruise night 1.5 weeks ago.

2. By-Passed the Ammeter per my instrucition which we both previously agreed was a good idea.

3.-When removing my dash clusther to by pass the ammeter he said all wires looked fine to him.

Needless to say I am just slightly frustrated! What do you guys think is going on, based on the facts set forth in my  first post and this last post!    I have a couple ideas but want to her your own subjective opinions and I know, one is them is that I need a new mechanic but he still has the car to give him a second chance to get things right b/f I go to plan B with another mopar mechanic (who has a little more electrical prowess).

I was very disturbed with the fact that he never was able to give me a definitie diagnosis with what was wrong with my car to begin with, making me very leery of things and my hunch was right, as I did not make it home as I crapped out on the highway, thank GOD I did not get in a major accident.

Before I left I asked him what his theory was that caused my problems and he said that he belives the Ammeter connection, caused a high spike in electrical voltage, causing my halogen head lights to crap out and also causing me to originally have no power.  Keep in mind b/f I brought it to him after jiggling aroud the wires connecting to the tach, the power would come on again (just keep that fact in mind).

After crapping out on the highway and calling him he was for now sticking with this theory, also saying that  the original high spike in electrical voltage that caused my headlights to both fry out, also may have affected/ruined my MSD box and thats why the car was breaking up a bit and then crapped out on me today.

[A383Wing]

I say the mechanic is not worthy of that title.

while I agree that the headlights probably blew out because of the high charge voltage, the cause of that high charging voltage should have been found and corrected.

he may also be correct in saying that the MSD may be damaged as well, but the over-charging should have been noticed and addressed before the car left his shop

I feel yer pain...I work on cars for a living at a private shop...it's people like him that give the rest of us technitions a bad rep.

If you were closer, I would work on yers for free....

Bryan

[flyinlow]

16 + volts  will burn out headlights, make instruments act funny , not sure how the MSD would take it.

Assuming you have a stock 69 RR charging system and that it is still wired correctly , I would suspect a faulty voltage regulator. This is an old style mechanical regulator. It controls the current going to the alternator field circuit. The smaller wire going into the back of your alternator, it is a push on terminal. When the voltage in the electrical system is below about 14 volts the regulator sends full current to the alternator field which makes the alt. make full power. At idle with the lights on and the battery being recharged (if you just started the car) the alt. is doing its best but the system voltage may only be 13 volts, barely above battery voltage. As you speed the engine up the alt. can make more power. As it chargers harder, the voltage will rise in the electrical system. At about 14 volts the voltage regulator starts cutting back on the alt. field circuit to limit its output and system voltage. If the regulator sticks in the full power position , the alt. will charge at max ,which can raise the voltage in the electrical system to the 16-20 volt range causing problems.
Sometimes you can tap the regulator with a small hammer and unstick it for a while or just get a new one.

[flyinlow]

regulator,stock ones are black. Screw terminal is from the ignition switch, push on terminal is the wire going to the alt. field, green I think.

[flyinlow]

Single field wire alt. The push on wire from the reg. should go to the push on terminal on the alt.  If someone ran an ignition feed or battery feed wire direct to the alt. field the voltage regulator would not be able to control the alt. and it would charge its maximum all the time.

[1Bad70Charger]

Car does have a new voltage reg put on this winter when engine was done and will be one of the first things to be looked at.  HOpefully that does the trick and I don't have a short somewhere  but only time will tell.

[68neverlate]

If it's determined to be the voltage regulator and if the voltage regulator was the old mechanical style, when you go to replace it, specify the electronic style for the replacement.  You'll have fewer voltage regulation problems in the future... they're a lot more reliable.   

[1Bad70Charger]

If it's determined to be the voltage regulator and if the voltage regulator was the old mechanical style, when you go to replace it, specify the electronic style for the replacement.  You'll have fewer voltage regulation problems in the future... they're a lot more reliable.  

That's great to hear b/c he claims that was my problem, mechanical stuck closed in the extreme charge mode, causing a my problems. It was replaced with an elec. voltage regulator as you suggest.  I am not overly confident that all my electrical gremlins are solved but only time can tell and I will report here in the near future. The overcharging would explain my gauges going crazy, the tach, etc., and my headlights popping/burming out, but only time will tell.

Thank you gentleman and stay tuned.  

[flyinlow]

The Electronic isolated field regulator ( 71 and up I think) will not work with the old style alt. (69) . You would need to replace both the alt. and the regulator and do some wiring to make it work. A nice upgrade, but you can not just change the regulator.
The original system worked Ok with the original electrical load. If the grounds where clean and tight and it was good quality regulator they where dependable. Every 60k miles or so the brushes and bearings would get tired in the alternator, you would overhaul or replace it and put on a new Mopar or NAPA regulator ,  and forget about few years. Some of the off shore stuff out there today may not be so good.   

[1Bad70Charger]

The Electronic isolated field regulator ( 71 and up I think) will not work with the old style alt. (69) . You would need to replace both the alt. and the regulator and do some wiring to make it work. A nice upgrade, but you can not just change the regulator.
The original system worked Ok with the original electrical load. If the grounds where clean and tight and it was good quality regulator they where dependable. Every 60k miles or so the brushes and bearings would get tired in the alternator, you would overhaul or replace it and put on a new Mopar or NAPA regulator ,  and forget about few years. Some of the off shore stuff out there today may not be so good.   

So now what is expected to happen to my 69 Plymouth since he just changed to an electrical volt regulator but a 69 syle alternator. 

[Charger-Bodie]

The Electronic isolated field regulator ( 71 and up I think) will not work with the old style alt. (69) . You would need to replace both the alt. and the regulator and do some wiring to make it work. A nice upgrade, but you can not just change the regulator.
The original system worked Ok with the original electrical load. If the grounds where clean and tight and it was good quality regulator they where dependable. Every 60k miles or so the brushes and bearings would get tired in the alternator, you would overhaul or replace it and put on a new Mopar or NAPA regulator ,  and forget about few years. Some of the off shore stuff out there today may not be so good.   

So now what is expected to happen to my 69 Plymouth since he just changed to an electrical volt regulator but a 69 syle alternator. 

They make a replacement Electronic to work directly in place of the old points style. That part should be fine.

[flyinlow]

[quote They make a replacement Electronic to work directly in place of the old points style. That part should be fine.
[/quote]




Learn something every day, I did not know thry made an electronic replacement for the old style grounded field alternator. Sorry my information was out of date.

[1Bad70Charger]

The Electronic isolated field regulator ( 71 and up I think) will not work with the old style alt. (69) . You would need to replace both the alt. and the regulator and do some wiring to make it work. A nice upgrade, but you can not just change the regulator.
The original system worked Ok with the original electrical load. If the grounds where clean and tight and it was good quality regulator they where dependable. Every 60k miles or so the brushes and bearings would get tired in the alternator, you would overhaul or replace it and put on a new Mopar or NAPA regulator ,  and forget about few years. Some of the off shore stuff out there today may not be so good.   

So now what is expected to happen to my 69 Plymouth since he just changed to an electrical volt regulator but a 69 syle alternator. 

They make a replacement Electronic to work directly in place of the old points style. That part should be fine.