69 Road Runner completely dead , help me diagnose problem.

[1Bad70Charger]

My 1969 Road Runner with its new 505 ci engine and reverse manual transmission (727) has been very reliable since getting built this winter, and I have driven it 700 miles to numerous cruise nights without any issues at all.  Car has new battery and rebuilt alternator also.  I have noticed the car has been taking a charge just fine when I drive it.

Well I jinxed myself tonight as I was telling a buddy of mine tha the car has been very reliable and never stranded me, but everytime I go to start it I realize that an old modded hot rod like this could just be totally dead and not start (and how its a bummer if that happens and you get stranded on the road or cruise night, etc.).

Well, left the cruise night tonight she fired up just fine, and driving home I realize that all gauges were lite up that come on when the headlights are on,but the headlights stopped working on the way home (but interior gauges and tach still were lite up).

Car got me home no problem and went out to trouble shoot it to see if my tail lights were working 1 hour later, and when I opened the car door the dome lights came on and the ignition was working and then I shut off the ingition switch, and tried it again and everything went totally dead (talk about jinxing myself).  

NO dome lights, no cranking at all, no horn, 0, like having no battery in the car.  However, the only think that work is my toggle switch that runs my twin fans on my champion radiator and my vacum pump (for the big cam in my car) and these two features are wired direclty to the battery, so i know the new battery is still working fine.

I am not a mechanic, but seems like something is wrong with the ignition, as the car is otheriwise 100% dead.  I put the CHeetah shifte in all different gears to make sure its not the neutral safety switch but no help there. Also, checked battery terminal connections to make sure they were not loose and all was nice and tight.

Car has new MSD 6al ignition and MSD distributor also, and never had any issues all summer until now.

What are the most likely issues that are going on with my car based on what i describe? The fact that that everything is 100% dead, except my toggle switch wired direclty to battery for my radiator fans and external vacum booster which are both controlled by the same toggle switch (both kick on fine and have normal amout of power when turned on.)

Thanks in advance guys!  

[Rolling_Thunder]

sounds like your ammeter took a shit...       the give away would be the horn not working - that means there is a disconnect between the alt power lead and the batt power lead - those two connect through the ammeter --   disconnect the battery and crawl under the dash...    then connect the heavy red and black wires together and see if that does the trick...   

[1Bad70Charger]

sounds like your ammeter took a shit...       the give away would be the horn not working - that means there is a disconnect between the alt power lead and the batt power lead - those two connect through the ammeter --   disconnect the battery and crawl under the dash...    then connect the heavy red and black wires together and see if that does the trick...  

If its the ammeter does that kill the battery (like a bad alternator or no?).

Also, I take it there must be a direct relationship between the headlights both going out on the way home and then the car being totally dead 1 hour later?

Thanks for your input Rolling Thunder. 

[Rolling_Thunder]

honestly - what I have found with old cars is one electrical problem leads to others and things that seem related are several different problems.... 


Headlights going out = could be the headlight switch overheating

The thing is when you said it had dash lights and dome lights then you keyed the ign off and back on - it had nothing...      that is the weird part. 

The dome light, ign, and other things are on different fuses...   so i doubt all the fuses blew at once (check anyway) --  All the items that do not work are all however, connected to the ammeter. The power comes in off the batt on the heavy gauge wire on the "J" terminal on the fuse block. If there was a disruption there the entire car would die. That would mean the ammeter OR the fusible link. The fusible link is easier to check -  look at it and see if the insulation has melted off  -- 

The power goes in on the red wire, through the bulkhead, to the ammeter, and then to the rest of the car...    so any problem with the ammeter OR fusible link would cause this condition.     

If your accessories (fans & vac pump) are hooked directly to the battery they will still work in this situation.    I have also seen the "J" red wire fy on the passenger side of the bulkhead connector...   just look around and note anything out of sorts.

Were these new harnesses or older ones ? 

[b5blue]

Check the bulkhead connectors, main ignition connector to the switch. Check and wiggle all fuses and connectors behind the fuse block. 

[Just 6T9 CHGR]

main ignition connector to the switch.

This one left me baffled...could have sworn it was a battery but it turned out to be the previous owners hack job using butt connectors & spade terminals to connect to the ignition switch....check that connector!!

[1Bad70Charger]

Thanks for the info guys I appreciate it. 

Any other opinions please keep them coming.

When its resolved will let you guys know what it was.

[Chryco Psycho]

start testing where you do still have power , the start relay is first , check the fusable link off that then in to the main bulkhead connecters , then the ign switch plug & ammeter . work through the path logically & see where you lose power

[1Bad70Charger]

start testing where you do still have power , the start relay is first , check the fusable link off that then in to the main bulkhead connecters , then the ign switch plug & ammeter . work through the path logically & see where you lose power

That makes alot of sense.  

Could be that my new battery is drained of most of its power b/c of something not working properly in my charging system, given the fact that my headlights went out on the way home.

Its actually taking a charge right now with my battery tender battery charger, and we shall see if the battery is drained, but has just enough power to power the toggle switch to my 2 elec. radiator fans.

If the battery has 0 to minimal juice have to get that charged anyways so will see how dead the battery really is and then of course have to figure out what caused it go dead (alternator is rebuilt but not the first one that went bad).

[flyinlow]

Battery connections clean and tight?

[A383Wing]

Battery connections clean and tight?

yea..that's what I was gonna say....that should have been checked & tested first

[1Bad70Charger]

Battery connections clean and tight?

Yes, that was the first thing I checked last night.  

Unusual update, I have been charging my new (this year) heavy duty battery for 9 hours, with my Battery Tender Plus, battery charger, that puts out 1.25 amps, and the battery is still taking a charge and not fully charged yet (so that tells me that the battery had to me way low on power?)

However, despite the fact its been charging that long I reconnected the battery and still no power at all from no dome light, head lights, and of course no ignition.

I will contiue to charge the battery over night but don't forget the battery had enough juice to power my twin elec fans (at least 30 amps) and my external elec. vacum booster, so it still seems there has to be a bad connection as suggested in most the threads here.

Anyways, my engine builder and mechanic who built the car is swinging by in the next few days and hopefully he can trace down the problem pretty easily.

Does the battery being WAY down on power and still taking  a charge over 9 hours later, yet the car still being totally dead, exept for the aforementioned toggle switch, lead to any other ideas about what's going on.  

Thanks for your input gentleman.  

[flyinlow]

If you have a 80 amp hour battery that was dead it would take a 1.5 amp trickle charger over two days to fully charge the battery. Some batterys like the Optima take a special charger and technic if run fully flat.

Your radiator fans work now? No headlights,running lights,horn or starter now.Start with a test light ,ground the pigtail clamp to the engine or alternator. Start at the pos. battery terminal. Does it light? then work downstream, starter relay, firewall connector, ammeter,etc. until you find the break (open) in the circuit.

I made a Hillbilly (Michigan) test light out of an old sealed beam. It draws enough current to show junctions that have high resistance. The light will be bright on one side of the juction and dim on the other.   :

Check at the starter relay, near the brake booster, wires tight, is there power there? With the car in park you can jump across the the big to little terminal with a screwdriver. The starter should crank the engine.

A few ideas, good luck.

[1Bad70Charger]

Update, battery needed to be charged with a battery tender plus for about 15 hours and is know fully charged.

Unfortunately, car is still 100% dead except for toggle switch that acitivates the twin dual elec. fans and vacum pump. 

Mechanic coming over tommorrow hopefully who build the car.

Obviously, some type of bad connection or other problem that you guys reference, that caused the battery to get drained of power and now that battery is fully charged, is keeping the car stone cold dead, except for the aforementioned dual fans and vacum pump, turned on by toggle switch.

[68neverlate]

Hmmm... if you read through some of Nacho's threads on charging, you might get a better sense of what's happening.  I'd say your alternator gave up the ghost, causing the car systems to draw off the battery.  It sounds like you might have had a lot on at the time things went down, which means you would have been drawing a fair amount of current off the battery and through your ammeter.  My guess is the wiring somewhere between your battery to the ammeter or from the ammeter to the splice on the other side of the ammeter might have overheated and now needs to be replaced.  There's a design flaw in our cars (those having ammeters in them)... Nacho has a work-a-round to deal with this, but it takes your ammeter out of the picture (it won't display charging/discharging situations any more).  You may want to read through some of Nacho's threads for tips and situations to avoid (there's a fair number but here's one that gets into it a bit http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,33574.25.html) when mating up alternators and batteries (ie: low alternator output combined with high battery capacity is not good etc.)...

[BigBlockSam]

some thing happened to my roadrunner . everything was dead except the  switch for the aux electric fan . cause that was run direct from batt with an inline fuse .

it was the feed wire on the firewall bulkhead connector had fried .good luck 

[Brass]

As stated, it sounds like it could still be the bulkhead connector.  (If it was just headlights, I'd suggest checking your ground.)

Here is a very good article I located on this site before:

http://www.madelectrical.com/electricaltech/amp-gauges.shtml

Suggestion: an easy way to bypass the ammeter is to simply connect the red and black wires onto the same post at the back of the gauge.

You can also bypass the bulkhead connector by running the wire through the firewall grommet.  (Instead of drilling directly through as the article suggests.)

Good luck.

[Chryco Psycho]

You might want to install relays for the headlights & take the load off the bulkhead , ammeter & switches

[1Bad70Charger]

Great info guys on a topic very foreign to me.

Hoping for the best when my mechanic comes over tommorrow and thanks! 

[moparguy01]

Sounds like what my 68 coronet did to me. Mine ended up being the connector in the bulkhead where the fusible link plugged into it going bad.

[1Bad70Charger]

start testing where you do still have power , the start relay is first , check the fusable link off that then in to the main bulkhead connecters , then the ign switch plug & ammeter . work through the path logically & see where you lose power

Unfortunately it turns out that this is not going to be easy as its not the fusable link, bulkconnectors, and we found out by jigglig the wires behind the sun tach that the power (except for the headlights) returned, so my issue is right behind the instrument panel cluster and the dash board has to be removed to access those wires!  

Have a feeling the Ammeter took a dump which I am going to end up bypassing regardless of what we find and something burnt out with the headlights to (have at least 2 seperate problems we are going to find).

My engine builder was not use to removing the dash board on a 69 Plymouth or Dodge B-Body, and when I saw him struggling and found out he never removed one before, I decided to politely send him on his way, and I will have it flat bedded to a local old school Mopar Mechanic, who has a solid background with this type of electronics.

All the power from the engine bay area including the wire in from the alternator into the interior works, but the wire going out to the alternator from the dashboard area of the car has no power, explaining why the battery was WAY down on power and had to be recharged.

Any further thoughts are appreciated?  

[68neverlate]

The battery recharges when the alternator is putting out more power than the car is using and if the battery needs it.  If this is the case, the current flows from the alternator through the bulkhead to the ammeter and through that back out the bulkhead to the battery.  If any of that wiring is defective, the battery won't recharge. 

If there was a large draw through that wiring (as would be the case if your alternator stopped producing power and there was a large draw on your battery), the wires or ammeter could have got cooked.  Another possibility is that you developed a short in the headlight circuit somewhere which could also have cooked the wires near the ammeter.  If the headlight circuit still has the short, that might explain why power returned to everything else except headlights when you jiggled the wires behind the dash. 

BTW, in order to get the instrument panel out of the dash on a B-body, you have to drop the steering column...

Keep us posted... I'm interested to hear what the problem is.  Good luck. 

   

[dodgechar]

  My guess your bulkhead conectors . Thoughs clips are a flaw. That artical in madelectronic ts great. I'd recomend that amp by pass, but the bulkhead is probably the bulk of your troubles.  Also the ground from the neutral safety switch could  not be grounded all the way  If you had some tranny work it might be there too.

[1Bad70Charger]

The battery recharges when the alternator is putting out more power than the car is using and if the battery needs it.  If this is the case, the current flows from the alternator through the bulkhead to the ammeter and through that back out the bulkhead to the battery.  If any of that wiring is defective, the battery won't recharge.  

If there was a large draw through that wiring (as would be the case if your alternator stopped producing power and there was a large draw on your battery), the wires or ammeter could have got cooked.  Another possibility is that you developed a short in the headlight circuit somewhere which could also have cooked the wires near the ammeter.  If the headlight circuit still has the short, that might explain why power returned to everything else except headlights when you jiggled the wires behind the dash.  

BTW, in order to get the instrument panel out of the dash on a B-body, you have to drop the steering column...

Keep us posted... I'm interested to hear what the problem is.  Good luck.  

 

Sounds like a very possible scenerio.

You would agree to get to the wires behind the instrument panel out of the dash the dash pretty much has to come apart, or just the instrument panel by dropping the steering column.

How long of a job would you say it is with a competent mechanic to take off everything that needs to be removed to get to all those wires behind said instrument panel?

This really sucks, especially going into the last weekend of summer and the labor day holiday!!  

[Chryco Psycho]

It would depend on the competancy of the mechanic, I changed out a whole main harness in about 3 hrs including removing the dash , it would not take long to drop the column & pull the gauge panel but finding the issue coul dtake a bit if it is not obvious , it would only take a couple of minute to pull the wires off the ammeter , test it & jump the two wires together if that is the problem .

[1Bad70Charger]

Thank you for the great info gentleman off to Mopar Mechanic tommorrow and should have a dx pretty soon. I will post up what the issue is.

VERY FRUSTRATING to me that I had the engine builder here yesterday who built the car, and he did not know enough about Mopar B Bodies, to know that he just had to drop the steering column to get the instrument panel off!

That's what I get for not going with a Mopar Expert!  

[Rolling_Thunder]

where are you located anyway ?   

[1Bad70Charger]

where are you located anyway ?  

Chicago, I see your in L.A.  unfortunately for me!!

[Rolling_Thunder]

yeah -  if you were closer i would just come over and fix whatever it was for you     

[FLG]

A simple fix if its the amp meter (no cluster removal required)

With the battery disconnected, remove the two wires going to the amp meter (there both hot) and connect them together with a nut and bolt...making sure you than insulate the bolt so it cannot come in contact with any other metal part...see what happens. If everything works your amp meter is the problem and by doing that you just eliminated it (ran my car like that). imo id run a volt meter instead...this does not require all the cars electronics to pass through it to get a reading unlike the amp meter.

[Chryco Psycho]

or better yet just cut a piece of sheet metal to jump both terminals on the ammeter & leave the wires connected to the studs where they cannot short on anything

[Brass]

I have both wires connected to the same post at the back of the ammeter.  Solid connection, stable - no current passing through the gauge.  Easy.

[FLG]

Both better ideas 

[69rtmuscle]

I had a similar problem, and all it was was the foot switch for the high beams.

[BigBlockSam]

 

[1Bad70Charger]

HAVE updated news, good news and bad news.

Good News, Car is fixed (for now) without a real headache involved. Local Mopar Mechanic removed the instrument panel and saw that all wires looked fine, have to double check if he found a loose wire or not he was vague about that.  

We both agreed to by pass the ammeter which he did and the headlights were fixed by replacing both halogen bulbs that burnt out at the same time (he thinks b/c of some power surge).

Bad news, I told him it was EXTREMELY important to me to pinpoint what the cause of this failure but these guys just do what they want to do, and he said all the wiring looked fine, no burnts wires, etc., so he just fixed the problem and that's that, and did not have to replace any wires or parts (other than said headlights).  I told him to fix anything else that looked shaky wiring wise,  etc., and he said everything looked normal to him.

This does not leave my much confidence for the future, especially when the headlights have to be used, but it is what it is and if this happens again I will be EXTREMELY AGGRAVATED!!   He gave me the impression that the ammeter did not necessarily take a dump, but for future reference I have an aftermarket volt meter and the ammeter gauge has been flying around in a thousand directions, so we both agreed to by pass to keep that from being a future problem.

Thoughts on what caused this now that we have a little more information?   Also, all the info I have so far from said mechanic is posted in this thread so I won't be able to answer any other questions regarding the repair.

Thanks guys!  

[b5blue]

Just so you understand....
  The Amp gauge only tracked the flow between the Alt. and the battery. Battery low it will track Alt. output (quantity) going too battery and read negative, the lower voltage is in the battery the greater the reading as the Alt. feeds the battery. The gauge only read a reaction bip as you turn on more accessory's like headlights, wipers and blower motor as the regulator adjusted Alt. output to feed the new load demand created by turning something on. The gauge does not track total Amp output as many believe as there is a main junction/splice just prior to the gauge that feeds the entire cars electrical system. A "jumping Amp gauge" has me suspecting one or more bad ground straps someplace or a loose 12V+ connection. Check grounds, all of them and check Alt. connections so you know they are clean and tight fitting.
  I'm telling you this from first hand experience, I run a 120 Amp Denso Alt. on my car now after years of watching my gauge swing back and forth drawing power from the battery at idle due to low idle output then leap back as RPM's increased and Alt. output increased. Now the gauge reads negative briefly replacing the amps used to start the engine then returns to center as the battery "tops up". I can turn on everything electrical in my car and all you see on the gauge is the needle tap to positive then return to center as the regulator adjusts output to match demand. The gauge is useful as it would inform you your battery is below "par" or that your Alt. ether quit or was running away unregulated.        

[1Bad70Charger]

Things have gone from bad to worst.

To make a long story short, after picking up my car from a local Mopar Mechanic after saying my issue was fixed, on the way home I noticed the aftermarket sun tach was jumping around abnormally, and my aftermarket volt meter was pegged all the way to the right overcharging at 16 v.     While cruising along the highway at 55 mph and about 3000 rpm I noticed the car seemed to be breaking up and not running smooth at all, when it then died 5 minutes later, right after I was surronded by several semi trucks and made it to a highway exit ramp and pulled on the shoulder.  

The car fired right back up and drove it a few blocks into a school parking lot when it died again.  Fired up again also and I shut it off and called for the tow truck to return to the freaking mechanic (who should have noticed the voltmeter was showing the car was overcharging, and if he took it on an adequate test run should have also noticed that something was off the way the car was running (like it was missing with an igntion problem).  Keep in mind all eletrical gauges, lights, horns, were working fine, other than tach bouncing around abnormally and the volt meter being all the way over the right (at 16 v).

Before I left he informed me I would be good to go after he did the following:

1. Replaced both halogen headlights which both blew out at the same time the first night I got home and lost all power after coming home from cruise night 1.5 weeks ago.

2. By-Passed the Ammeter per my instrucition which we both previously agreed was a good idea.

3.-When removing my dash clusther to by pass the ammeter he said all wires looked fine to him.

Needless to say I am just slightly frustrated! What do you guys think is going on, based on the facts set forth in my  first post and this last post!    I have a couple ideas but want to her your own subjective opinions and I know, one is them is that I need a new mechanic but he still has the car to give him a second chance to get things right b/f I go to plan B with another mopar mechanic (who has a little more electrical prowess).

I was very disturbed with the fact that he never was able to give me a definitie diagnosis with what was wrong with my car to begin with, making me very leery of things and my hunch was right, as I did not make it home as I crapped out on the highway, thank GOD I did not get in a major accident.

Before I left I asked him what his theory was that caused my problems and he said that he belives the Ammeter connection, caused a high spike in electrical voltage, causing my halogen head lights to crap out and also causing me to originally have no power.  Keep in mind b/f I brought it to him after jiggling aroud the wires connecting to the tach, the power would come on again (just keep that fact in mind).

After crapping out on the highway and calling him he was for now sticking with this theory, also saying that  the original high spike in electrical voltage that caused my headlights to both fry out, also may have affected/ruined my MSD box and thats why the car was breaking up a bit and then crapped out on me today.

[A383Wing]

I say the mechanic is not worthy of that title.

while I agree that the headlights probably blew out because of the high charge voltage, the cause of that high charging voltage should have been found and corrected.

he may also be correct in saying that the MSD may be damaged as well, but the over-charging should have been noticed and addressed before the car left his shop

I feel yer pain...I work on cars for a living at a private shop...it's people like him that give the rest of us technitions a bad rep.

If you were closer, I would work on yers for free....

Bryan

[flyinlow]

16 + volts  will burn out headlights, make instruments act funny , not sure how the MSD would take it.

Assuming you have a stock 69 RR charging system and that it is still wired correctly , I would suspect a faulty voltage regulator. This is an old style mechanical regulator. It controls the current going to the alternator field circuit. The smaller wire going into the back of your alternator, it is a push on terminal. When the voltage in the electrical system is below about 14 volts the regulator sends full current to the alternator field which makes the alt. make full power. At idle with the lights on and the battery being recharged (if you just started the car) the alt. is doing its best but the system voltage may only be 13 volts, barely above battery voltage. As you speed the engine up the alt. can make more power. As it chargers harder, the voltage will rise in the electrical system. At about 14 volts the voltage regulator starts cutting back on the alt. field circuit to limit its output and system voltage. If the regulator sticks in the full power position , the alt. will charge at max ,which can raise the voltage in the electrical system to the 16-20 volt range causing problems.
Sometimes you can tap the regulator with a small hammer and unstick it for a while or just get a new one.

[flyinlow]

regulator,stock ones are black. Screw terminal is from the ignition switch, push on terminal is the wire going to the alt. field, green I think.

[flyinlow]

Single field wire alt. The push on wire from the reg. should go to the push on terminal on the alt.  If someone ran an ignition feed or battery feed wire direct to the alt. field the voltage regulator would not be able to control the alt. and it would charge its maximum all the time.

[1Bad70Charger]

Car does have a new voltage reg put on this winter when engine was done and will be one of the first things to be looked at.  HOpefully that does the trick and I don't have a short somewhere  but only time will tell.

[68neverlate]

If it's determined to be the voltage regulator and if the voltage regulator was the old mechanical style, when you go to replace it, specify the electronic style for the replacement.  You'll have fewer voltage regulation problems in the future... they're a lot more reliable.   

[1Bad70Charger]

If it's determined to be the voltage regulator and if the voltage regulator was the old mechanical style, when you go to replace it, specify the electronic style for the replacement.  You'll have fewer voltage regulation problems in the future... they're a lot more reliable.  

That's great to hear b/c he claims that was my problem, mechanical stuck closed in the extreme charge mode, causing a my problems. It was replaced with an elec. voltage regulator as you suggest.  I am not overly confident that all my electrical gremlins are solved but only time can tell and I will report here in the near future. The overcharging would explain my gauges going crazy, the tach, etc., and my headlights popping/burming out, but only time will tell.

Thank you gentleman and stay tuned.  

[flyinlow]

The Electronic isolated field regulator ( 71 and up I think) will not work with the old style alt. (69) . You would need to replace both the alt. and the regulator and do some wiring to make it work. A nice upgrade, but you can not just change the regulator.
The original system worked Ok with the original electrical load. If the grounds where clean and tight and it was good quality regulator they where dependable. Every 60k miles or so the brushes and bearings would get tired in the alternator, you would overhaul or replace it and put on a new Mopar or NAPA regulator ,  and forget about few years. Some of the off shore stuff out there today may not be so good.   

[1Bad70Charger]

The Electronic isolated field regulator ( 71 and up I think) will not work with the old style alt. (69) . You would need to replace both the alt. and the regulator and do some wiring to make it work. A nice upgrade, but you can not just change the regulator.
The original system worked Ok with the original electrical load. If the grounds where clean and tight and it was good quality regulator they where dependable. Every 60k miles or so the brushes and bearings would get tired in the alternator, you would overhaul or replace it and put on a new Mopar or NAPA regulator ,  and forget about few years. Some of the off shore stuff out there today may not be so good.   

So now what is expected to happen to my 69 Plymouth since he just changed to an electrical volt regulator but a 69 syle alternator. 

[Charger-Bodie]

The Electronic isolated field regulator ( 71 and up I think) will not work with the old style alt. (69) . You would need to replace both the alt. and the regulator and do some wiring to make it work. A nice upgrade, but you can not just change the regulator.
The original system worked Ok with the original electrical load. If the grounds where clean and tight and it was good quality regulator they where dependable. Every 60k miles or so the brushes and bearings would get tired in the alternator, you would overhaul or replace it and put on a new Mopar or NAPA regulator ,  and forget about few years. Some of the off shore stuff out there today may not be so good.   

So now what is expected to happen to my 69 Plymouth since he just changed to an electrical volt regulator but a 69 syle alternator. 

They make a replacement Electronic to work directly in place of the old points style. That part should be fine.

[flyinlow]

[quote They make a replacement Electronic to work directly in place of the old points style. That part should be fine.
[/quote]




Learn something every day, I did not know thry made an electronic replacement for the old style grounded field alternator. Sorry my information was out of date.

[1Bad70Charger]

The Electronic isolated field regulator ( 71 and up I think) will not work with the old style alt. (69) . You would need to replace both the alt. and the regulator and do some wiring to make it work. A nice upgrade, but you can not just change the regulator.
The original system worked Ok with the original electrical load. If the grounds where clean and tight and it was good quality regulator they where dependable. Every 60k miles or so the brushes and bearings would get tired in the alternator, you would overhaul or replace it and put on a new Mopar or NAPA regulator ,  and forget about few years. Some of the off shore stuff out there today may not be so good.   

So now what is expected to happen to my 69 Plymouth since he just changed to an electrical volt regulator but a 69 syle alternator. 

They make a replacement Electronic to work directly in place of the old points style. That part should be fine.

   

[1Bad70Charger]

Well why did I know local mechanic putting on the new elec. voltage regulator would not solve my problem.

Car was charging normal for 5 minutes then started overcharging at 16 V+ when i drove a mile and returned him the car!  

Time to go to the guy in the Chicago Metro area who is a Jet Mechanic and has a top reputation for being an electrical guru for old school Mopars.

Taking this better than I normally would but it REALLY SUCKS, especially when I am missing out of the best month of the year in the Midwest (September).

[68neverlate]

It sucks that what you've done so far hasn't resolved the issue.  It looks like it may come down to a shorting issue (as long as the replacement voltage regulator was not also faulty), although a bad alternator might also give you the same results.  You're probably wise to get an electrical expert involved at this point, especially if you're anxious to isolate the problem and get the car back on the road.   

Keep us apprised of progress/info...

[1Bad70Charger]

It sucks that what you've done so far hasn't resolved the issue.  It looks like it may come down to a shorting issue (as long as the replacement voltage regulator was not also faulty), although a bad alternator might also give you the same results.  You're probably wise to get an electrical expert involved at this point, especially if you're anxious to isolate the problem and get the car back on the road.   

Keep us apprised of progress/info...

Thank you my friend and to everyone else, I will let you know what the electrical expert finds as the car hopefully will be in his possession by the end of the week.   

I am also suspecting a short at this point. 

[Bob T]

I had a similar problem in my old 68 Charger, and it cooked the replacement V reg nearly as soon as it went in.
After going as far as I could with it ( and in the middle of replacing some other wiring including wiring to ammeter posts, starter , alt and new electronic dizzy etc ) I took it to an auto electrical shop and they diagnosed that the battery had sulphated up and was running a higher than standard base charge that got way too high when it came off idle. So we replaced the battery and another V Reg - solid state type and it was mint after that.

Yeah, I would'nt be too impressed with your mechanic at the moment either

[flyinlow]

A few other things you might try yourself.
(1) Try an other battery if you have one available , this would eliminate a sulfated battery, or one with a bad cell or have your battery load tested. I would think if it starts a 505 engine that it is OK, but it would be good to eliminate the battery as a problem source.
(2) Make sure the case of the regulator has a good ground to the firewall, with a poor ground they can act erratic. I am not familiar with the electronic replacement regulator for the older system ,but it still would need a clean ground to be able to regulate properly.
(3) Start the engine, run it until the voltage rises to 16 volts. Then pull the field wire off the alternator. Its should stop charging and the voltage should return to battery voltage. ( 12.5-13.0) If it is still charging, you have an alternator problem.

Good luck.

[1Bad70Charger]

A few other things you might try yourself.
(1) Try an other battery if you have one available , this would eliminate a sulfated battery, or one with a bad cell or have your battery load tested. I would think if it starts a 505 engine that it is OK, but it would be good to eliminate the battery as a problem source.
(2) Make sure the case of the regulator has a good ground to the firewall, with a poor ground they can act erratic. I am not familiar with the electronic replacement regulator for the older system ,but it still would need a clean ground to be able to regulate properly.
(3) Start the engine, run it until the voltage rises to 16 volts. Then pull the field wire off the alternator. Its should stop charging and the voltage should return to battery voltage. ( 12.5-13.0) If it is still charging, you have an alternator problem.
Good luck.

Great advice  

[68neverlate]

I went back and reread this thread from the beginning, as well as reviewed a few other references, in order to try and isolate your issue.  I'm not really at the point where I'm convinced this is a shorting issue just yet.  There's a couple of reasons for this.  First, if you had a short, you should have blown a fuse or the fusible link (unless those have been overriden with higher rated fuses than what is called for or a larger wire in place of the fusible link).  Second, even if a short does exist and a fuse/fusible link did not blow, I think the regulator would still limit alternator voltage to 14.5 volts in a correctly operating charging system.  Since you're seeing 16+ volts, it's should have something to do with the voltage regulator.   

The regulator controls the field current/voltage in the alternator rotor.  This current is provided to generate a magnetic field in the rotor which induces a voltage in the surrounding windings of the alternator when the rotor spins.  The more voltage/current to the field, the stronger the magnetic field created in the rotor.  The stronger the magnetic field in the rotor, the more voltage the alternator produces in its windings.  The voltage regulator monitors voltage from the alternator to control the amount of current/voltage it passes to the field in the rotor.  In order to accurately detect the alternator voltage, the regulator must be working correctly and it must have a solid ground. 

Given the above, the first thing I'd check is that the voltage regulator is still good.  If that checks out, I'd then check to ensure that the voltage regulator is properly and adequately grounded when installed.  The ground is made through the mounting screw, the mounting bracket of the regulator and the hole and surrounding area on the firewall that it mounts to.  Scrape off any grime/paint/rust on the firewall to prepare the surface for a good connection.  Ensure that the screw used to attach the regulator to the firewall is clean and cutting into the firewall metal to make a good connection.  Use a larger screw if you need to to ensure that.     

It still could be something else, but give those a look first and see what you find out...

Hope all goes well with mechanic #2... keep us posted. 

[1Bad70Charger]

Thank you my Mopar brother for putting all that energy into studying this thread and coming up with that long informative advice and suggestions.

GReat post thanks again! 

[1Bad70Charger]

Ok, I am hoping I am fixed, after 2nd mechanic (who works as a mechanic on Jet Planes and Mopars on his spare time) had the car for 24 hours, he cleaned up a lot of the wires that i did not need (serving no purspose) that were in my engine bay, he put on some new wires to replace some other wires that he did not approve of, and he hooked up my vacum booster for the big cam, that was previusly on it its own toggle switch, and the vacum booster now goes on with the ignigition (and the toggle switch is now obsolete).  A mechanical fan was also just installed by mechanic #1, and the two electric fans also previously controlled by the same toggle switch, are gone, and so is all that wiring (part of the excess wiring referenced above).

Amazingly, this was enough for at least now to fix my overcharge problem as the car ran 15 miles home, over 25 minutes from speeds from idle, to 2 to 60 mph, without any issues and without any overcharging.
We did put on a new mechancial voltage regulator just to play things safe, but the car was even acting ok with the old mechanical volt. regulator on it.

So, in his own words when I asked him what fixed the overcharge problem he pointed to the all the excess wiring removed in the engine bay, and said one of those wires (and maybe the voltage regultator).

Here is another bizzare thing that happended that he can explain. B/f newest mechanic removed all the excess wiring, my headlights, horn, and gauges would only come on if the key was in the ignition/accesseory mode. After cleaning up the excess wiring serving no purpose in my engine bay the lights, gauges and horn no come on the way they should without a key needed (which I am happy about, b/c its normal now and b/f was not. Any thoughts on any of this guys?    

Time shall see, so far so good, b/f he worked on it the car would start to overcharge within a few minutes while idling, and yesterday I made it home on a 25 minute drive without issue.  Mechanic #2 did not even get into the dash wires to accomplish this, but as you may recall I had mechanic #1 by pass my ammeter to avoid that taking a dump on me.  He also found that the main power lead wire inside the engine bay had a half ass soder job on it, but does not think that would be enough to be causing a short.


I will hope for the best from here and thank everybody for your input!  

[68neverlate]

Glad to hear your back in business 1BAD... now you should be able to get a little more road time in before the weather turns.       

Thanks for posting the info on the fixes... it helps us all learn a little more.  It sounds like the additional wiring installed to run the aftermarket fans and booster might have caused you some grief... but there are quite a few things mechanic #2 did that could have resolved the issue.  It could have been to do with the replacement of the voltage regulator, one of the additional wires may have been improperly wired or had a short to ground (my vote based on what you told us about the lights, horn and gauges)... even the bad solder joint could have been/contributed to the problem.  It would have been nice if mechanic #2 systematically made those changes so he could have told you exactly what resolved the issue, but hey, that would likely have taken him much longer (and cost you more) to fix the problem.  Important thing is that you're back up and running.

Thanks again for the thread...     

[1Bad70Charger]

Thank you my friend.  

I just hope she continues to stay reliable.   As I log in more miles over the fall (great hot rod weather) the more my confidence factor will go up if she continues to operate properly.

Looking to burn some rubber this weekend  as I was down for 3 weeks and have a lot of driving to make up for!   I'm also hoping that I finally found me a very COMPETENT old school Mopar specific mechanic for the future.