Black 500 red stripe-int to repaint or not

[XS29LA47V21]

http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,77912.50.html

So I re-read this old post again.  My intent when buying was clearly down the path of "survivor" or near survivor with a repaint for the old holy grail and not restore.  I have got it running with limited efforts on a short initial run (no exhaust to speak of and no radiator connection, short run time) seems to run pretty good for crusty   

So now that some of my car buds local have indicated some similar thoughts of not painting as here on thread dealy has now got me straddling the fence a little.  I do believe the back end of the car reflects original creative repainted areas, but some of the front has clearly been painted (I suspect back in the 1970s in Calif).  It has more dents then ebay photos indicated, apparently from Hurricane Andrew in S. FLA 1992.  For what is worth, I am no less happy with the car .  At best I am looking towards repaint and other limited grooming with NOS or nice original pcs.  I have tried a local miracle dent puller on two modern cars with big dents from tree storm damage and one of my other chargers he spent half a day making it better sorta, but then looked worked.  It seems like two options repaint outside or leave it as is? 

So do you think I should repaint or not. 

[moparstuart]

  if you are for sure its not original paint  , its a no brainer go ahead and fix all the dents and do an outside repaint . Warning these thing seem to snow ball and turn into a full on restoration .   

[pettybird]

Don't they though...


IF all of your trim AND all of your chrome AND all of your seals and gaskets AND all of your glass AND all of your emblems AND your grille AND your lights and lenses are in fantastic shape, then you'll be in cheap.


Putting anything more than used take-off or new parts against fresh paint looks terrible.  It's amazing what you think would be OK now that you'll end up sighing, shaking your head and replacing. 

What started out as a $6000-7000 paint refresh on the B5 car has nearly quadrupled in price, and there are still some little things the car needs.

[mauve66]

i got confused (again, i know i know), the link is for a 4spd car being sold but the pics end up being of an automatic car, and i'm guessing that you actually bought it at the end of the auctioin???

[XS29LA47V21]

    That's unlikely (the resto).  age and some loss of middle age brain cells still computes the math to build others in a lifetime and kids college someday.  However, it is likely you and I meet next week in El Darado and you scope my crusty rare beater, then maybe you will figure I am not "the norm" towards perfect cars which may or may not be real.  Besides negotiations any deeper with the wife this yr for a second car being painted and after buying this car is unlikely.  If the F8 500 sells that would help (mainly with my relationship management and timing).

By the shear number of dents and what I see as some front clip repaint on top earlier layer of black paint leads me towards the idea of an outside paint on my car.   I have seen two other aero cars that I understood had a panel or two repainted but still presented as survivor.  I guess part of the question does include is a survivor all factory paint only with no repainted areas at all?  Avoiding the name throwing here, but for example if a 500 closer to you then me was repainted, I would think that would be sad because it is such a beautiful example of an original and it has a repaint to a full 1/4 as I recall.  Can someone post photos of original paint lines from creative ind work areas, that would be interesting.

[XS29LA47V21]

i got confused (again, i know i know), the link is for a 4spd car being sold but the pics end up being of an automatic car, and i'm guessing that you actually bought it at the end of the auctioin???

Couple of those topics bounce some on black 500s, the one I bought was this one out of FLA, Factory Blk, red int, red stripe, 440 auto and stack of options.  I was appearant low bidder as they say.

[mauve66]

only original once as they say, of course the itch to have it "perfect" is simply overpowering sometimes.............

[C500]

I would keep it as it is. The job will just grow and grow, and as soon as it's painted, you'll worry about every little scratch. As said above, only original once.

BTW, the color combo is superb 

[moparstuart]

  That's unlikely (the resto).  age and some loss of middle age brain cells still computes the math to build others in a lifetime and kids college someday.  However, it is likely you and I meet next week in El Darado and you scope my crusty rare beater, then maybe you will figure I am not "the norm" towards perfect cars which may or may not be real.  Besides negotiations any deeper with the wife this yr for a second car being painted and after buying this car is unlikely.  If the F8 500 sells that would help (mainly with my relationship management and timing).

By the shear number of dents and what I see as some front clip repaint on top earlier layer of black paint leads me towards the idea of an outside paint on my car.   I have seen two other aero cars that I understood had a panel or two repainted but still presented as survivor.  I guess part of the question does include is a survivor all factory paint only with no repainted areas at all?  Avoiding the name throwing here, but for example if a 500 closer to you then me was repainted, I would think that would be sad because it is such a beautiful example of an original and it has a repaint to a full 1/4 as I recall.  Can someone post photos of original paint lines from creative ind work areas, that would be interesting.

i know we talked on the phone will be nice to meet u in person    but really i wanna see the car  

[moparstuart]

I would keep it as it is. The job will just grow and grow, and as soon as it's painted, you'll worry about every little scratch. As said above, only original once.

BTW, the color combo is superb 

wow you would know for sure    about them snow balling   

[C500]

I would keep it as it is. The job will just grow and grow, and as soon as it's painted, you'll worry about every little scratch. As said above, only original once.

BTW, the color combo is superb 

wow you would know for sure    about them snow balling   

aint that the truth! 

[pettybird]

  That's unlikely (the resto).

If you'd said the same thing to us two years ago we would have agreed.  Funny how you don't see how big the snowball becomes before it rolls over you!

[maxwellwedge]

All "clean-ups" turn into snowballs.....they sure do for me anyway. But that's ok 

[XS29LA47V21]

Dunk I still think you need my green one so you can have twins, one real nice, then build mine as a driver, you would confuse people for years.
   

I would forcast I will be driving before I think much about the outside, if at all, but was interested in hearing some thoughts (two open cans is plenty.) 

[moparstuart]

Dunk I still think you need my green one so you can have twins, one real nice, then build mine as a driver, you would confuse people for years.
   

I would forcast I will be driving before I think much about the outside, if at all, but was interested in hearing some thoughts (two open cans is plenty.) 

no really you need a red one to have the trifecta   

[C500]

Dunk I still think you need my green one so you can have twins, one real nice, then build mine as a driver, you would confuse people for years.
   

I would forcast I will be driving before I think much about the outside, if at all, but was interested in hearing some thoughts (two open cans is plenty.) 

I would happily have two, one step at a time though 

Red would also be nice, very christmassy pair. I would just need the white Hemi 500 off ebay for a nice little set 

[RallyeMike]

Maybe I'm just jaded, but I don't get much of a thrill when it comes to restored cars anymore like I do when I get to look at an original. We exchanged notes on this when you first told me your plans and I had picked up my 69 500. I think its exceptionally interesting as-is. When restored, its just another restored car (although with very cool options and color).

I still vote to have a decent shop massage dents, yes - they will still be noticeable, but they will be better. Then carefully clean it, and drive it without a care in the world.

Additionally, I think the best strategy from an investment standpoint is to NOT restore it.

[Patronus]

Don't they though...


IF all of your trim AND all of your chrome AND all of your seals and gaskets AND all of your glass AND all of your emblems AND your grille AND your lights and lenses are in fantastic shape, then you'll be in cheap.


Putting anything more than used take-off or new parts against fresh paint looks terrible.  It's amazing what you think would be OK now that you'll end up sighing, shaking your head and replacing. 

What started out as a $6000-7000 paint refresh on the B5 car has nearly quadrupled in price, and there are still some little things the car needs.

I couldn't have said it any better. Once you start painting, nothing on the outside of that car, nothing, will be acceptable but new.

[tan top]

like  whats been mentioned above !!  its going to snowball   , unrestored cars are awesome !!  only original once & all that     ,  if that car was mine i would have a difficult time deciding what to do !! but  , like  i just mentioned only original once   ,    prolly going to get flamed now , think if you have the spare cash & X amount  time  , i would restore it  ,  it wont stop at a  exterior paint job !! no offence !   it will look like a hlpeg ( sort of  )  car  every thing else will look junk with just fresh paint  sorry to say
 document the car take  thousands of pictures of every thing &  video    , then  restore it    could do a paint job & interior  but !! your still running original wiring  , etc etc brakes !! baljoints /bushings etcetc   , either way its going to snow ball    
 give it a nut & bolt resto if  & when  time & funds   allow  

[gtx6970]

If it looks good overall in real laife likes it does in the picture.
leave it, drive it , enjoy it

[XS29LA47V21]

Maybe I'm just jaded, but I don't get much of a thrill when it comes to restored cars anymore like I do when I get to look at an original. We exchanged notes on this when you first told me your plans and I had picked up my 69 500. I think its exceptionally interesting as-is. When restored, its just another restored car (although with very cool options and color).

I still vote to have a decent shop massage dents, yes - they will still be noticeable, but they will be better. Then carefully clean it, and drive it without a care in the world.

Additionally, I think the best strategy from an investment standpoint is to NOT restore it. (sure, if the white Hemi 500 on the market the last several years is nice and obtainable, I am Shirley not cutting this one up to resto)

Thanks all, you are right and I agree.  It is a difficult and near impossible line to draw down the path of improving an original car and Pandora's box, Mike.. yes we might be jaded on this topic, I seen tons of very nice cars over the years, that is partly why I bought this car and gathered that triple black RTSE above as beater, the RTSE maybe rougher then most like, but you do not see crusty cars much anymore, especially rare ones and you cannot argue or wonder how much is what it is.  For what it is worth, I am still on the path of my purchase on this one and unlikely to change much anytime soon other than making it reliably drive first.  I do have two other cans opened/snowballs and have no intention of a third.  To clarify some details of the car and No offence to seller, the ebay photos showed some stuff and a shiny buffed out original car, the additional photos provided by the seller prior to end of auction/purchase showed a rougher car then ebay photos (indicated to me anyway) or at least better details to help me buy the car.  The local dent guy here I would put up to guys nationally on new cars, just a miracle worker, but not so much on the old thick metal.  Does someone out there specialize on the old thicker metal dent repairs? 


Xmas that is a great idea too, very festive and family oriented.  I am in that stack also who really likes that white hemi 500, it would look great with my black and white thing....... 

Could someone post some original paint Daytona or 500 pics if they have some, I would love to see some.

[nascarxx29]

Could someone post some original paint Daytona or 500 pics if they have some, I would love to see some

http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,75939.msg852588/topicseen.html#msg852588

[FJ5WING]

  . Warning these thing seem to snow ball and turn into a full on restoration .   

Ask me how I know!
What started as a motor rebuild....


as exploaded into the "full boogie"!

[XS29LA47V21]

Could someone post some original paint Daytona or 500 pics if they have some, I would love to see some

http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,75939.msg852588/topicseen.html#msg852588

Thanks, ooh dats cool reading dar....send me more if you know some off hand.  I am interested in knowing where Creative Ind. painted areas ended typically, I suspect full roof and somewhere behind the door or below the sail panel-mid 1/4.  Clearly so few original paint exist or known, that is sad to me, my B5 RT is factory orig paint & I have enough cans opens, thanks for the support, I will stay the coarse of no paint (for at least the foreseeable future).

[69_500]

Of all of the 500's I have seen I can count on both my hands the ones that are still wearing their original paint. My vote goes for leaving the car the way it is now and enjoying it. Get it road worthy but leave the exterior alone. I would rather look at the car the way it is than once it is restored but I think I'm an odd ball.

I've probably seen about 150 500's over the years and I can only think of 9 that were still in their original paint when I saw them. Well that I know were still in their original paint. Others there are a few questions about.

[XS29LA47V21]

Of all of the 500's I have seen I can count on both my hands the ones that are still wearing their original paint. My vote goes for leaving the car the way it is now and enjoying it. Get it road worthy but leave the exterior alone. I would rather look at the car the way it is than once it is restored but I think I'm an odd ball.

I've probably seen about 150 500's over the years and I can only think of 9 that were still in their original paint when I saw them. Well that I know were still in their original paint. Others there are a few questions about.

In 20+ yrs of looking for 500s, I can only recall 3, if you include mine which has some repaint and a red one in a state NE of me (guy on this site).  Cool, I will stand down my wondering thoughts and remain focused  So, any chance you are going to El Darodo next wk, if so I would like to visit while we are there

[69_500]

Sorry to say but I will not be at El Dorado next week. Its a bit too far to go at the moment being that we are in Indiana. JR's car is a very nice one for original paint I'll say that. I have seen more HEMI 500's that are in their original paint than 440 powered cars though. I did see a very nice 500 SE that was unrestored a few years back but that car is no undergoing a restoration. Which in my opinion it did not need.

[XS29LA47V21]

 
Recently pulled these off my 500, never really in the past cared that much about certain small details like exhaust regarding originality that much anyway (with the exception of factory tips & H-pipe).  In this case I do care a little more and interested in if anyone knows if the front half of this exhaust is "factory original".  The manifold collectors are welded on and appear nice quality compared to the glass packs clearly added later in the cars life with very sloppy welds. 

Also, what do think is a better exhaust for this car?
Option A - get my local muffler shop do a nice job which they are capable of using my old pcs?
Option B - order some repro "factory correct 69 exhaust" from someone and if so who's are the best for original cars to order?

After additional inspection the motor was in no condition to be driven and is out of the car on the way to machine shop & trans has been rebuilt and with the help of a friend I am hoping to make a show or two with it later in the summer.

[moparstuart]

Recently pulled these off my 500, never really in the past cared that much about certain small details like exhaust regarding originality that much anyway (with the exception of factory tips & H-pipe).  In this case I do care a little more and interested in if anyone knows if the front half of this exhaust is "factory original".  The manifold collectors are welded on and appear nice quality compared to the glass packs clearly added later in the cars life with very sloppy welds.  

Also, what do think is a better exhaust for this car?
Option A - get my local muffler shop do a nice job which they are capable of using my old pcs?
Option B - order some repro "factory correct 69 exhaust" from someone and if so who's are the best for original cars to order?

After additional inspection the motor was in no condition to be driven and is out of the car on the way to machine shop & trans has been rebuilt and with the help of a friend I am hoping to make a show or two with it later in the summer.

hopefully , charger fever or ottawa       sorry to hear about your drive train 

[pettybird]

the stuff from accurate exhaust fits pretty well.

Gardner Exhaust has the nicest stuff for the highest price...

[Just 6T9 CHGR]

I am running Accurate LTD's exhaust...H-pipe & tails fit perfectly

[XS29LA47V21]

  hopefully , charger fever or ottawa       sorry to hear about your drive train 
[/quote]

That is the side goal to chase a show or two with it this summer or fall.  Regarding the drive line, no worries man - way predicable to me, the car was never "driving" in the 25yrs of previous owner and likely most of the 10 before that it seems to me, 1970s inspection sticker & tag and my previous midlife cynical experience seeing the add/photos, I gave the motor a <10% chance of when I got it home I could do a all soft parts, old carb and external etc details and actually have a reliable motor/trans to drive, I figured it would need some money thrown it's way for sure.

So does it look like an original stick of exhaust pipe to anyone?

[65post]

i got confused (again, i know i know), the link is for a 4spd car being sold but the pics end up being of an automatic car, and i'm guessing that you actually bought it at the end of the auctioin???

Couple of those topics bounce some on black 500s, the one I bought was this one out of FLA, Factory Blk, red int, red stripe, 440 auto and stack of options.  I was appearant low bidder as they say.

Love the hub caps on this car.The red centers just pop on a black car.Don`t see them to often on a aero car.

[RallyeMike]

I didnt think welded flanges were stock? It's been a long time since I've seen stock pipes though....

**EDIT** Crawled under mine and they awfully similar.

[XS29LA47V21]

 

Progress has been slow and steady sorta.  With the help of a friend, couple friends actually... it looks like we will be putting the motor-trans back in the car after being rebuilt, likely this wkend.  I could not get myself to completely put 40yr old crusty... not cleaned up parts back in the hole, so there is a blend of painted and old.  At the moment is still feels cumbersome, but after a yr or two of driving I hope that will tone down and not be as noticeable.

Any noticeable eye popping mistakes you guys see on the motor?  Mr. Bur big beard seems to have a good eye..

See anything worthy?

[hemi68charger]

If you haven't done so already or plan to:

1. install starter
2. install steering gear box
3. get spark plug wire brackets to front of exhaust manifold
4. put the heater hose nipples in water pump housing
5. Thermostat with cover and spark plug wire support bracket

[pettybird]

A couple dumb detail things--get an Accel distributor cap (your parts store should have or easily get one) as it's tan and good looking.  Also paint your alternator pulley black. 

Or, disregard that and have fun driving the car 

[Just 6T9 CHGR]

69 440 should have dipstick & tube outside exh manifolds

[hemi68charger]

69 440 should have dipstick & tube outside exh manifolds

Good eye Chris !!!  

Also, to be as close to an original looking power plant, swap out the bottom outer valve cover fasteners for the correct stud/nut combination. It would be something I would see all the time. You don't even have to remove the cover.. I would just remove the fasteners ( again, the bottom end ones ), maybe paint the stud with a light orange and then install the nut, again softly spraying it with orange paint to make it look like it was always there......

You can see in this picture the stub/nut combination on the forward-most bottom valve cover position.

[johntpr]

Dipstick handle should be black

[Ghoste]

Purely black or black with overspray?

[Bug shield C500]

I would love to see that car at a show as it looks today. All the dings and dents tell a story. Make the interior comfortable to drive and redoing the engine and transmission makes it safe to drive. Leaving the body the way it is makes it a great show piece and something interesting to look at.  Gets the car back out there sooner. 
Unfortunately I am one to talk. bugshield has been sitting in my garage for the last 5 years and I am just now starting to work on her. 

[XS29LA47V21]

69 440 should have dipstick & tube outside exh manifolds

Thanks Chris.  That was hard to swallow there, as there are so many cars with it between the exhaust man and heads.  From most others I would not agreed (I have not moved it yet), but did starting thinking of my HS car which I think was on the outside now that you mention it. 

Dip stick color, I thought, although most seem to be orange when you sure around on the net, I thought they were bare, with tube black.  The existing had remains of black tube but the handle itself was ...rust.

Again with a friends help, went in yesterday, this was the first time I have came in from the bottom side   with the proper equipment (which I have) that was unbelievably easy, I bet from lifting car to motor-trans bolted in and back on jack stands was likely not more than 15 min.  Which made it quite nice working on the motor trans before that nearly complete on a pallet jack and rolling chair.

I did ...off and on struggle with how much to clean up and paint and such, some hard lines to draw. Had several friend promote restoring the engine compartment which I felt that continues that path of restoration Pandora box and so I did not go that route.  However I did for nice driving.. nearly everything suspension wise is new or blasted-coated (man that bendix disc stuff is expensive).

[Just 6T9 CHGR]

69 440 should have dipstick & tube outside exh manifolds

Thanks Chris.  That was hard to swallow there, as there are so many cars with it between the exhaust man and heads.  From most others I would not agreed (I have not moved it yet), but did starting thinking of my HS car which I think was on the outside now that you mention it.  

Dip stick color, I thought, although most seem to be orange when you sure around on the net, I thought they were bare, with tube black.  The existing had remains of black tube but the handle itself was ...rust.

Again with a friends help, went in yesterday, this was the first time I have came in from the bottom side  with the proper equipment (which I have) that was unbelievably easy, I bet from lifting car to motor-trans bolted in and back on jack stands was likely not more than 15 min.  Which made it quite nice working on the motor trans before that nearly complete on a pallet jack and rolling chair.

I did ...off and on struggle with how much to clean up and paint and such, some hard lines to draw. Had several friend promote restoring the engine compartment which I felt that continues that path of restoration Pandora box and so I did not go that route.  However I did for nice driving.. nearly everything suspension wise is new or blasted-coated (man that bendix disc stuff is expensive).

If you look at the pic that was posted in this thread about the eBay auction back in 2011, you'll see that the tube was outside the manifold.

http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,77912.0.html

Also the tube is natural.....the dipstick itself should be black as Johntpr already said    usually a light fogging of color hence the rust apparent on the original

[tan top]

 

[XS29LA47V21]

69 440 should have dipstick & tube outside exh manifolds

Thanks Chris.  That was hard to swallow there, as there are so many cars with it between the exhaust man and heads.  From most others I would not agreed (I have not moved it yet), but did starting thinking of my HS car which I think was on the outside now that you mention it.  

Dip stick color, I thought, although most seem to be orange when you sure around on the net, I thought they were bare, with tube black.  The existing had remains of black tube but the handle itself was ...rust.

Again with a friends help, went in yesterday, this was the first time I have came in from the bottom side  with the proper equipment (which I have) that was unbelievably easy, I bet from lifting car to motor-trans bolted in and back on jack stands was likely not more than 15 min.  Which made it quite nice working on the motor trans before that nearly complete on a pallet jack and rolling chair.

I did ...off and on struggle with how much to clean up and paint and such, some hard lines to draw. Had several friend promote restoring the engine compartment which I felt that continues that path of restoration Pandora box and so I did not go that route.  However I did for nice driving.. nearly everything suspension wise is new or blasted-coated (man that bendix disc stuff is expensive).

If you look at the pic that was posted in this thread about the eBay auction back in 2011, you'll see that the tube was outside the manifold.

http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,77912.0.html

Also the tube is natural.....the dipstick itself should be black as Johntpr already said   usually a light fogging of color hence the rust apparent on the original

  hey that looks like my engine compartment.... Cool thanks.

I chose to just blast and leave bare the exhaust manifolds.  What about the AC compressor any ref to where to have them rebuilt &/or can they be converted?

[XS29LA47V21]

Well finally moving and stopping under it's own power,  first time I assume based on inspection sticker and tag .....1978...

Made a mopar show, dat was fun, not many short deck lid 69 Chargers out there...   Made successful 40 mile loop with no (added) issues.  Plenty of details to chase, including the dreaded PW, cruz & AC (to me).  Not sure how long I will run the old "Ansen Sprints" which was amazing I found the inserts for them thanks to a member here (another thread, thanks again) but I like the old look for this car and the time being. 

[Ghoste]

Thats all good news.  I love that photo you just added of it, great background choice.

[tan top]

  good to hear     , love the  look with slot mags 

[69_500]

Glad to hear you got it up and running. Very glad that you have not stripped the car down and restored it. I enjoy seeing them like this so much more.

[hemi68charger]

Thats all good news.  I love that photo you just added of it, great background choice.

Jason, great picture... Love it..........

[RallyeMike]

Looks great.

[remta1]

I agree love the old school slots

[XS29LA47V21]

Glad to hear you got it up and running. Very glad that you have not stripped the car down and restored it. I enjoy seeing them like this so much more.

THANKS ALL.  Glad I stayed the coarse with not restoring it or painting it (it saved money for others,  as coordinated with the wife as relationship management 101), was never my plan when purchased but the body has so many issues I was waffling there for a while, at some point maybe.  I find it very interesting seeing the spray remains of CI at the back plug for example. I still love to scope a "perfect car" like the next guy, but the older I get the more I prefer seeing original or mostly original cars still out and not fully restored.  It is not like you see them in salvages much anymore

[moparstuart]

Glad to hear you got it up and running. Very glad that you have not stripped the car down and restored it. I enjoy seeing them like this so much more.

THANKS ALL.  Glad I stayed the coarse with not restoring it or painting it (it saved money for others,  as coordinated with the wife as relationship management 101), was never my plan when purchased but the body has so many issues I was waffling there for a while, at some point maybe.  I find it very interesting seeing the spray remains of CI at the back plug for example. I still love to scope a "perfect car" like the next guy, but the older I get the more I prefer seeing original or mostly original cars still out and not fully restored.  It is not like you see them in salvages much anymore

saw some great pictures of it on facebook a few weeks ago   

[Beep Beep Dave]

I think the car looks great as it sits as well. We'll done
Only problem is we don't have enough pics to drool over.

Dave

[RallyeMike]

2nd that. Would love to see some more pics (inside and out) with wheels on the car. Really dig the unrestored cars with their charachter flaaws and all.