"Ship of Theseus" fraud...?

[TK73]

Interesting read:

"On April 7, 2005, Boyd Coddington, famed hot rod designer and star of American Hot Rod, pleaded guilty of perpetrating a "Ship of Theseus" fraud. Coddington's hot rods had been registered as antique automobiles in order to avoid emissions and tax liabilities. However, many of the vehicles no longer contained any parts from the original cars, and some were entirely unrelated to their supposed donor vehicles. Interestingly, most of his cars were hand built one offs, complete with hand fabricated aluminium bodies. Technically, they were often late model cars with copies of 1930's-60's bodies on them. Most of the metal was likely never used on a 1932 Ford."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hot_rod



Ship of Theseus
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia.

The Ship of Theseus is a replacement paradox also known as Theseus's paradox.

According to Greek legend as reported by Plutarch,

    "The ship wherein Theseus and the youth of Athens returned [from Crete] had thirty oars, and was preserved by the Athenians down even to the time of Demetrius Phalereus, for they took away the old planks as they decayed, putting in new and stronger timber in their place, insomuch that this ship became a standing example among the philosophers, for the logical question of things that grow; one side holding that the ship remained the same, and the other contending that it was not the same."

There is also an additional question: if the replaced parts were stored in a warehouse and later used to reconstruct the ship, which—if either—would be the original ship of Theseus?


Automobiles

A similar situation exists with automobile Vehicle Identification Numbers. Each automobile is identified with a unique number inscribed in various locations, and this number is associated with the vehicle's legal registration. However, any number of parts can be replaced and it will still be considered to be the same vehicle. In some cases, an antique or desirable wrecked vehicle will be "repaired" by having its identification markers transferred to a new vehicle.

This is especially common in the cases of vehicles like the Volkswagen Beetle or Mini which remained in production for many years and have become collectible. Although such alteration was looked down on by enthusiasts and governments, at least one American company specialized in importing Beetles from Mexico to be resold as antique (and thus street- and emissions-legal) models.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ship_of_Theseus

[dkn1997]

they guy seems like an A hole on TV, but who is he really hurting?  maybe 20-30 cars that don't have to go through the emissions test? Even if it's 50 cars, who cares?   these same cars will spend most of their lives on a trailer not running anyway. He's also not claiming they are rare classics with matching numbers or anything.  people who buy these know what they are getting.

brings to mind the story of granpa's hatchet that gets passed down through the generations, sure we replaced the handle and the head as they wore out, but it's the same hatchet....

[73dodge]

Intresting

I would say that if he built a one off hand built car but used say a 34 Ford as his example I would classify that as a late model car and he should have to put the emmissions stuff on it and list it as new.

Now the part of using some old parts in a new car that's where this gets intresting. What if the only old orginal parts used in the recreation were the wheels? Would it still be considered late model requiring emmisions or classic allowing him to get an exception? I think that's why he got burned.

From what I have seen of Boyd I would guess that he would hand build a car to say look like a 34 Ford put in a brand spanking new crate engine new custom built body new custom built interior custom built suspension and then use a shifter knob from a 34 Ford and call it an classic and try to get an exception for the emmisions


but thats just my take on it

[NHCharger]

These builders have been doing this for years, Boyd just happened to be the guy they decided to make an example of since he is the most recognized. The only options these car builders have is to put smog controls on all their cars, which the customers don't want, or move their company to a more business friendly state.
Boyd got off with a slap on the wrists I believe. a small fine and 100 hours of community service, which I'm sure he had one of his flunkies do.

[89MOPAR]

 It's not the emmisions that offends me, but that it seems he attempts to license his vehicles as regular vehicles of the day and age they were" inspired" by.
  So the guy with a real 57 Chevy pays, lets say, $200 to register his car based on value, but the dude who buys "Chezoom" for $300,000 also registers his car for $200 based on a 57 Chev value ??
  Plus it can absolve him of registering the car as a "kit car"  and the Pain in the butt issues that brings along with it.
Hopefully he had to pick up garbage on the side of the road and got hit upside the head by a thrown out beer bottle

[RD]

i agree with 89mopar, but I also see dkn's point which is very understandable.  this topic leads me to a point about year specific car shows.  there is a local car show here that will allow any 72 and older vehicle to enter.  the problem is when a fiberglass tub '34 coupe is entered with more goodies than a production car is allowed to enter and not my 73 all original sheetmetal charger.  WTH is up with that noise?

sorry, had to rant since it was close to the subject matter at hand

[TK73]

brings to mind the story of granpa's hatchet that gets passed down through the generations, sure we replaced the handle and the head as they wore out, but it's the same hatchet....

George Washington's axe

A similar story is told about George Washington's axe, with which the young George Washington is supposed, in an apocryphal story, to have cut down his father's cherry tree. The axe is supposedly on display in an (unverifiable) American museum, although, having had both its handle and its head replaced several times, no part of the original axe remains.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ship_of_Theseus

[TK73]

Some good input guys.

I don't have ANY problem trying to get around emissions laws 

[73dodge]

Some good input guys.

I don't have ANY problem trying to get around emissions laws 

What emmision laws exists for a 73 Charger? I don't think they came with any emmision equipment installed?

[TK73]

Some good input guys.

I don't have ANY problem trying to get around emissions laws 

What emmision laws exists for a 73 Charger? I don't think they came with any emmision equipment installed?

In general I don't mind people trying to get aroud emissions laws...

Before my '78s became exempt I had to hassle with trying to get them to pass inspections every 2 years. The Fury had emissions equipment until I yanked the sh!t when it hit the magic 25.  My '78 truck was only EGR equipped.

['CUDA360]

I still have to mess around with emissions because Arizona still requires them for cars built after 1966 

Bastards

As far as Boyd goes I noticed on some of his cars you never see them driving on the road. On The Alumatub episode they took it out to the dry lake for it's shakedown. I didn't know it was titled and registered... How stupid

[Vainglory, Esq.]

Interestingly enough, I used the blue/blue '71 Hemi Cuda vert "theory" in an epistemology class I was taking last year.   

[ChgrSteve67]

Nobody gives a rats a$$ that his car do or don't meet emissions standards.
Its all about the money and taxes.
Pay a fine and all is OK with the world again.

Boyd probably still made money even after paying the fines.

In my opinion DMV should inspect these cars when they are registered. Most of these cars have not been registered in many years and no longer show up in any states database. My car was no exception. DMV never looked at my car to see what condition it was in or if it was even safe to drive yet $27 later I was legal to drive it on the road.

I do not know exactly what laws a one off car builder must follow but I know it is not the same laws that Ford or Dodge must follow.
The crash testing alone would do them in.

My guess would be that Boyd probably $hit on another employee and they turned him in to the correct agency.

[Khyron]

I still have to mess around with emissions because Arizona still requires them for cars built after 1966 

Bastards

Are they afraid of killing a cactus? It's a desert, I say Open header baby!

[ChgrSteve67]

These cars are not daily drivers. The amount of pollution one of these cars create is nothing compared to the millions of cars that are driven 15,000 miles a year.

[ChargerBill]

In my opinion DMV should inspect these cars when they are registered. Most of these cars have not been registered in many years and no longer show up in any states database. My car was no exception. DMV never looked at my car to see what condition it was in or if it was even safe to drive yet $27 later I was legal to drive it on the road.

Oh yes, PLEASE let the DMV inspect all these vehicles. I think they need to regulate our choice of car and our driving habbits even more. Sure, I'm all for MORE government intervention....

Gimme a break, these cars are only driven a couple thousand miles a year, if even that. So why does anyone care, really? yes, I do agree that Boyd is an @$$ and in fact this isn't his first run-in with the law, but this issue is more about the DMV pounding their chests and padding their coffer. NO, a fiberglass '34 coupe is not really a '34 Ford..agreed. But when considering the "Ship of Theseus" theory regarding cars (our cars) you have to decide exactly what percentage of a car has to remain to call it original. 80%, 60% 40%? And WHO decides? You and I, the government, or the enviro wackos? Guess what, you install a new crate 426, a new Moser rear end, new wiring, a TCI tranny and new seat covers into a '68 Charger and you've lost about 50% of that cars original parts (in mass)...sooo, do you guys REALLY want to open this can of worms? It's a slippery slope, and I say if you're an old car enthusiast you STOP splitting hairs and defend the side you identify with...even if you disagree on the smaller issues. If not, just sit back and watch it happen...in 10 years our cars will have to meet 2016 emissions standards if we change just ONE sparkplug. Yep, that's what I want...anyone else?

[General_01]

I think changing the drivetrain is different than building a new frame and than building a body that looks like a '34 Ford, dropping in a 289 and a Currie rear end, and than registering it as a '34 Ford.  Are they cool cars? Yes. Are they restored classics? No. I beleive this is what the argument is about. As far as emmissions go, I agree that things are kinda ridiculus. As stated earlier, these cars may emit more emmissions when compared one on one with newer models, but the sheer number of newer vehicles emit far more pollution than the classics as a whole.

I agree with Bill on involving the DMV in our personal business. If your vehicle isn't road worthy, the cops will let you know.

[RD]

Some good input guys.

I don't have ANY problem trying to get around emissions laws 

What emmision laws exists for a 73 Charger? I don't think they came with any emmision equipment installed?

if its a california car you can bet it has emission equipment.

[TK73]

I thought perhaps this conversation would turn to the "rebody" topic based on this part in the definition, interesting stuff on emmissions though:

Automobiles

"A similar situation exists with automobile Vehicle Identification Numbers. Each automobile is identified with a unique number inscribed in various locations, and this number is associated with the vehicle's legal registration. However, any number of parts can be replaced and it will still be considered to be the same vehicle. In some cases, an antique or desirable wrecked vehicle will be "repaired" by having its identification markers transferred to a new vehicle."

[gunner]

Hey tk its not against the law intell you get caught i am surprised he lasted that long
Ben

[BrianShaughnessy]

People have the same problem when trying to buy a "new" Shelby Cobra replicar like my lotto winner friend.   He got so disgusted with what the different builders were telling him he went from saying I want all new to saying I'll just get a used one that's already titled, etc. to save the hassle...   and so far he hasn't done squat about that either.

The states are tightening up the loopholes and Boyd was just the douche who put it all on TV for everybody to see.
There are ways to get something titled as a home-built but it's not as easy as it once was.

But just for instance why should somebody that buys a new replicar that "looks" like a '65 Shelby be able to get historic plates and collector car insurance rates?    True, in the big scheme it's a drop in the bucket but it doesn't always make it right either.

The next big thing will be the rebodies for the new 69 Camaro bodies coming out... and later on the stangs and possibly cuda/challenger bodies too.     Speedo talked to the folks selling the bodies and he was told that the VIN situation couldn't be discussed on the phone.   So before you say what's it matter... think about if you are the victim of a big buck rebody? 

[Lowprofile]

 Anytime a businessman finds a loophole in the system, he/she/they are branded a criminal. I do not support the "rebody" of high dollar cars. Once they are gone, so be it.  But for people building one -offs & special construction vehicles, using a original factory body as a starting point, should be allowed to register that vehicle with the original VIN#.  That being said.......Because  of the plethora of low-lifes in the musclecar business  [aka HALPAG] there should be some sort of new regulations on the hobby that protects the consumer & the unsuspecting business person from being taken for a ride by people just out for a quick buck at everybody else's expense.

[Headrope]

In my opinion DMV should inspect these cars when they are registered. Most of these cars have not been registered in many years and no longer show up in any states database. My car was no exception. DMV never looked at my car to see what condition it was in or if it was even safe to drive yet $27 later I was legal to drive it on the road.

Oh yes, PLEASE let the DMV inspect all these vehicles. I think they need to regulate our choice of car and our driving habbits even more. Sure, I'm all for MORE government intervention....

Gimme a break, these cars are only driven a couple thousand miles a year, if even that. So why does anyone care, really? yes, I do agree that Boyd is an @$$ and in fact this isn't his first run-in with the law, but this issue is more about the DMV pounding their chests and padding their coffer. NO, a fiberglass '34 coupe is not really a '34 Ford..agreed. But when considering the "Ship of Theseus" theory regarding cars (our cars) you have to decide exactly what percentage of a car has to remain to call it original. 80%, 60% 40%? And WHO decides? You and I, the government, or the enviro wackos? Guess what, you install a new crate 426, a new Moser rear end, new wiring, a TCI tranny and new seat covers into a '68 Charger and you've lost about 50% of that cars original parts (in mass)...sooo, do you guys REALLY want to open this can of worms? It's a slippery slope, and I say if you're an old car enthusiast you STOP splitting hairs and defend the side you identify with...even if you disagree on the smaller issues. If not, just sit back and watch it happen...in 10 years our cars will have to meet 2016 emissions standards if we change just ONE sparkplug. Yep, that's what I want...anyone else?

If we're an old car enthusiast we should "stop splitting hairs and defnd the side we identify with ... even if we disagree on smaller issues." Is vehicle inspection one of those "smaller issues?"

[ChargerBill]

Is vehicle inspection one of those "smaller issues?"

Well, all I know is that I've heard many members from other countries problems with the government having to inspect and approve their vehicle before they can even register or drive it. Do we really want the DMV to get involved in this aspect of the hobby? If so, where do they stop? Do they only inspect special construction vehicles? How about any vehicle previously registered as a "non-op" vehicle? Gee, what about any vehicle over 50 years old? How about 35 years old? How about 20 years old? Maybe they could find a way to determine how much rust a vehicle has and decide anything close to 5% and the vehicle is junk? No, I'm NOT against safe vehicles...I am however against further governmental regulation and intervention. You see, you give them an inch and they will TAKE a mile...and you can do nothing about it. Also, do you REALLY think that a special construction car builder is going to install crappy parts? And do you really think that someone building a $50,000 muscle car isn't going to make sure the brakes work? And, do you really think that a DMV appointed flunkee is going to be able to tell if a master cylinder is operating correctly, or if a steering joint looks like it was installed correctly? You're barking up the wrong tree on this one. What about all the 1982 Accords out there that broke kids are driving without a brake job in the last 50,000 miles? You think THOSE cars are more safe than the restored ones? I say let the cops do their job and pull over the obvious death traps...let the system work, but if you expect me to be in favor of waiting 3 months for the DMV to inspect my car and another 3 months to pass it...I'm just not in favor of that. They already can't get 20 people through line in less than 3 hours...and MOST of the emplyees behind the counter could be replaced trained chimpanzees. I doubt many of them (if any at all) would know a proportioning valve from shift linkage.

Better yet, what's your proposal...you asked the question...do YOU have an answer?

[Mike DC]

A nicely built hot-rodded engine is probably better for the environment than an emission-controlled car that's running terribly.

I say just require that new cars be built with decent emission controls, inspect the modern cars yearly to make sure they're operating somewhere near how they're supposed to, and leave everything else out of it.  (And they should only be taking tailpipe emissions readings.  No poking around under the hood allowed.  If they're really just checking emissions then it doesn't matter what's been done to the motor as long as it blows clean.)

Anything older than the 80s or totally custom-built is a statistically insignificant group.  Just give those cars basic safety inspections and leave them alone.

.