1968 Numbers matching?

[toxicswan]

I own a 1968 Charger R/T 440 Magnum Auto. The last 8 of the VIN are stamped on the trans on top of the flange where it meets the block by the oil sensor. The Stamp on the rad support and trunk lid matched the fender tag (before they were painted over by a non-Mopar understanding paint shop) but the block is a bit unusual. First question: what is the correct color for my block? Turquoise or orange? I know the 440 magnum was orange after 1968 but in the 1968 Charger I was told it should be turquoise. True? Next, my build date off the fender tag is August 16th. So it was one of the very first "coke bottle" Chargers built. The block is stamped on the milled surface next to the coolant intake: D440 A B 96 (the D440 is top left, the A is sideways in the 0 of the 440, the B is sideways over on the right in the middle of the pad and the 96 i on the bottom about 1/3 of the way from the left.) There is no stamp on the block near the trans stamp. One set of casting numbers on the passenger side of the block read 4.4.67 (April 4th 1967 casting date). The guy who has done a lot of the work on the car found a stamp on the driver side of the block on milled surface where the oil pan attaches that matches the last 8 of the VIN. There is also a strin of 7 numbers on the bottom of the block's milled surface at the back drivers side corner of the block that runs across the back where the trans pan meets the edge of the block. What do you think? Is it the matching block? I will try to get some pics but I have had very little luck getting anything that comes out.

[Tilar]

I've been wrong at least 3 times before =), but I didn't think that the engine or tranny had numbers on early 68's. 

[toxicswan]

I've been wrong at least 3 times before =), but I didn't think that the engine or tranny had numbers on early 68's.  

I have heard that too, but the trans is clearly stamped. I have also been told that it can go either way, some were and some weren't.

[John_Kunkel]

If the numbers on the top of the bellhousing and on the side of the block match the VIN you have a number matching car...end of argument. The back-to-back numbers on the top were one configuration and the top/side was another. '69 and later are both on the side.

The numbers stamped in the pan rail under the starter are the engine serial number, not found on all motors.

The stampings on the top pad identify a '68 440, the A and B signify .020" oversized pistons and .010" undersized crank while the 9 6 is the build date September 6 (1967).

[maxwellwedge]

I agree with John. But I have to say a lot of engines I have had rebuilt that are stamped for undersize this and oversize that have rarely had the pieces over or under as stamped. The most common one that wasn't was the lifter bore sizing (I think it was the diamond shape) .008" oversize lifters.

[Dans 68]

Interesting that the fender tag build date is August 16th, while the engine date is September 6. Not impossible by any means, knowing Chrysler, but interesting. 

Dan

[toxicswan]

Interesting that the fender tag build date is August 16th, while the engine date is September 6. Not impossible by any means, knowing Chrysler, but interesting. 

Dan

Yes Dan, that is my concern. I'm just not sure what length someone might go to try and create a numbers matching car. The block casting is April 67 but the stamp says September and the fender tag has a August 67 build date. I dont understand.

[maxwellwedge]

SPD - does not mean the car the built that day. The 68 Charger was a super hot seller for Dodge (I think they added another plant to keep up with the demand) and I'm sure they got backed up out of the gate.

I have seen Advance Dealer Shipping notices dated a month (and more) past the SPD.

Would have to see both VIN stamps and a lot more dates to call it 100% matching.

[toxicswan]

SPD - does not mean the car the built that day. The 68 Charger was a super hot seller for Dodge (I think they added another plant to keep up with the demand) and I'm sure they got backed up out of the gate.

I have seen Advance Dealer Shipping notices dated a month (and more) past the SPD.

Would have to see both VIN stamps and a lot more dates to call it 100% matching.

SPD = Stamped production date? What is ADS notice? Also what dates?

[Dans 68]

"Scheduled" Production Date.

Dan

[maxwellwedge]

SPD - does not mean the car the built that day. The 68 Charger was a super hot seller for Dodge (I think they added another plant to keep up with the demand) and I'm sure they got backed up out of the gate.

I have seen Advance Dealer Shipping notices dated a month (and more) past the SPD.

Would have to see both VIN stamps and a lot more dates to call it 100% matching.

SPD = Stamped production date? What is ADS notice? Also what dates?

The ADS is what Chrysler sent the dealer when the car was built....A reminder/Invoice that the car was on the truck and coming soon! The one attached has a date of Nov 5   -  Bottom left hand corner.  Also - look at the top left under SO number - This car had an SPD of Nov 11th (B11) and actually went out nearly a week earlier.

Look at dates on your K-Frame, trans, wiper motor, glass etc. to see if any are past your SPD

[bakerhillpins]

If the numbers on the top of the bellhousing and on the side of the block match the VIN you have a number matching car...end of argument. The back-to-back numbers on the top were one configuration and the top/side was another. '69 and later are both on the side.

I believe the only way to tie the VIN (and therefore the block/trans) to the body on a 68 is to have the broadcast sheet which ties the order number and VIN together. The order number is stamped on the fender tag, rad support, and trunk gutter.

This of course is subject to what you consider a #s car.

Here are some links:
http://andy440.com/other.htm
http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,38316.0/all.html
http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,32660.25.html

[toxicswan]

If the numbers on the top of the bellhousing and on the side of the block match the VIN you have a number matching car...end of argument. The back-to-back numbers on the top were one configuration and the top/side was another. '69 and later are both on the side.

I believe the only way to tie the VIN (and therefore the block/trans) to the body on a 68 is to have the broadcast sheet which ties the order number and VIN together. The order number is stamped on the fender tag, rad support, and trunk gutter.

This of course is subject to what you consider a #s car.

Here are some links:
http://andy440.com/other.htm
http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,38316.0/all.html
http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,32660.25.html

So without a broadcast sheet a car cant be numbers matching, it can only have a very strong case for probably numbers matching? OK. I have no braodcsat sheet and if there was one they would have found it during the restoration and if they did they never passed it on to me (previous owner not happy about selling it). Here are some pics I took tonight that show waht I can get to without putting it onto a lift or removing paint:

Fender tag partial:


Trans top stamp (matchs last 8 of VIN on dash tag):


Engine block front pad, you can see D440 with the sideways A into it, you can see 95 below and if you look closely you can see the sideways B over to the right side:


and here is my favorite: On the bottom of the block, driver side rear corner. You can very faintly see maybe a T (?) then faint 440 and some numbers: 22301015 and its then obscured. WHAT IS THIS?? Remember the casting on the passenger side of the block reads 253 6430 and then 4.4.67 - a 1966-1972 era 440 built April 4 1967

[hemigeno]

The "2230" is Chrysler's 10,000 day calendar reference for Tuesday, September 5, 1967 - which matches / corresponds to the "9 5" Engine Assembly Date stamped on your block's ID pad.

The "1015" only refers to the fact it was the 1,015th (or 1,014th depending on your counting method) engine assembled that particular day.

Is there an "HP" stamped on the ID pad?  Seems to me it should be there...  

[bakerhillpins]

So without a broadcast sheet a car cant be numbers matching, it can only have a very strong case for probably numbers matching?

Like I said, all depends upon what you want to consider matching. When the VIN lines up with the drive train then you have a matching drive train, When you have a broadcast sheet you can tie the body and tag #s to the VIN and have a #s car. Take your pick.

69/70 cars have the VIN all the way from engine to body so it it's considered #s if all of them match. On 68's it's a 2 stage kinda thing. Owning a charger is a cool thing and I can't wait to join the club! Have fun with the car! 

[gasoline_24]

there should be a matching vin stamp on the engine right across from the tranny stamp.  I would say you have a matching tranny, but a replacement block.

[gasoline_24]

Also, I think you bolt on the tranny is loose.

[John_Kunkel]

I believe the only way to tie the VIN (and therefore the block/trans) to the body on a 68 is to have the broadcast sheet which ties the order number and VIN together. The order number is stamped on the fender tag, rad support, and trunk gutter.

Sure, one can always argue that the VIN tag or the entire dash along with the engine/trans was swapped into a different car.....in that case the broadcast sheet would be the final word.

[toxicswan]

Also, I think you bolt on the tranny is loose.

LOL. Thanks I noticed that.

[toxicswan]

there should be a matching vin stamp on the engine right across from the tranny stamp.  I would say you have a matching tranny, but a replacement block.

Unfortunately that is not true. 1968 did not necessarily have that stamp or ANY for that matter. I have now done a whole bunch more research and phone calls and had two "Expert" Dodge appraisers come out and look at it. There is one more place I have to look for a stamp apparently and it is a real PITA. On the surface where the oil pan meets the block. We just cant see it without removing the the pan (which is an unusual custom built pan) or the heads, either or- PITA. The numbers on the side of the trans where it meets the pan are right.
The heads off the engine have the casting numbers for the 440 of the time and the exhaust port is larger for the HP motor. The intake casting numbers are right and so are the exhaust manifold casting numbers. The crank mark is right too. Some of the glass (passenger window triangle) is dated close to block (Sept 67). Next week when I get some time I will lift the car.

[maxwellwedge]

There is no VIN on the heads (on any year - if that's what someone is trying to tell you) and there is zero difference between a standard 440 or an HP 440 head for your year.

[toxicswan]

There is no VIN on the heads (on any year - if that's what someone is trying to tell you) and there is zero difference between a standard 440 or an HP 440 head for your year.

"CASTING NUMBER" is on heads (as I wrote) and the exhaust port for the 440 head is 1.60" as opposed to the exhaust port for the 440 HP which is 1.74". So why do you think the exhaust ports in the head are the same size for the 440 and 440 hp in 1968? I am getting a lot of different info.

[maxwellwedge]

All 68-70 Big Block heads are casting #2843906.

All are 2.08 Intake valves, 1.74 exhaust valves

No difference in ports, valve sizes etc.

The 67 (67 Model Year) 440HP only head is 2780915. It has a 1.74 exhaust valve where all the other big block heads in 67 had a 1.60 exhaust valve.....also a 2780915 casting number.

An early 68 car would have 67 dates on the  2843906 casting.

[John_Kunkel]

I have now done a whole bunch more research and phone calls and had two "Expert" Dodge appraisers come out and look at it. There is one more place I have to look for a stamp apparently and it is a real PITA. On the surface where the oil pan meets the block. We just cant see it without removing the the pan (which is an unusual custom built pan) or the heads, either or- PITA.

I would question that "expert" info, the number stamped in the pan rail is the engine serial number which can't be linked to any particular vehicle by any available documents and you don't have to remove the pan to see it in every example I've seen.

Logic would dictate that a VIN wouldn't be under the pan because the pan is installed at the engine plant and the VIN is stamped at the vehicle assembly plant.

[hemigeno]

I have now done a whole bunch more research and phone calls and had two "Expert" Dodge appraisers come out and look at it. There is one more place I have to look for a stamp apparently and it is a real PITA. On the surface where the oil pan meets the block. We just cant see it without removing the the pan (which is an unusual custom built pan) or the heads, either or- PITA.

I would question that "expert" info, the number stamped in the pan rail is the engine serial number which can't be linked to any particular vehicle by any available documents and you don't have to remove the pan to see it in every example I've seen.

Logic would dictate that a VIN wouldn't be under the pan because the pan is installed at the engine plant and the VIN is stamped at the vehicle assembly plant.

two "Expert" Dodge appraisers

[gasoline_24]

I think he is referring to the pad just above the oil pan on the side of the block.  In 68 this should be blank.  In 69 and later years they would stamp the entire vin here.  On the 68 they either did or did not have the partial vin on the rear of the block on the top of the block by the oil sending unit.  Yours was stamped on the tranny, so it should have also received one on the block.  I am not sure if some missed and only stamped one or the other, but that is possible.

[bakerhillpins]

Could it have been a warranty block? I was under the impression that warranty blocks didn't have stamps. 

[toxicswan]

Could it have been a warranty block? I was under the impression that warranty blocks didn't have stamps. 

A question I have been scared to ask....

[toxicswan]

All 68-70 Big Block heads are casting #2843906.

All are 2.08 Intake valves, 1.74 exhaust valves

No difference in ports, valve sizes etc.

The 67 (67 Model Year) 440HP only head is 2780915. It has a 1.74 exhaust valve where all the other big block heads in 67 had a 1.60 exhaust valve.....also a 2780915 casting number.

An early 68 car would have 67 dates on the  2843906 casting.

Here is the casting on one head:



Here is the casting on the intake: (date is 6/14/67)


Here are the stamp and tag off the carb: (178th day is June 27th)



Stamp on oil pan:


BUT: look at the casting on the header:




WHAT DOES IT ALL MEAN?!

[6bblgt]

The guy who has done a lot of the work on the car found a stamp on the driver side of the block on milled surface where the oil pan attaches that matches the last 8 of the VIN.

The above quote is the only part I found confusing/questionable?

(vehicle identification number) VIN# - XS29L8B104863
(scheduled production date) SPD - 816 ** Wednesday, August 16, 1967 **
(shipping order number) SO# - 101437
core support & trunk lip should be stamped "B8X101437"

Block Cast - 4/4/67
Short Block Assembly - PT 440 2230 1015 (PT = Trenton Engine plant 440 = cu. in. 2230 =  9/5/67 1015 = unit number)
Engine Assembly - D 440 9 5 (D = 1968 model year 440 = cu. in. 9 5 = September 5th)

one head is dated 4/25/67
#402 oil pan correct for '68 Charger R/T

carb
Carter AVS #4429S dated F7 = 6/67
tag #38 = Chrysler part # 2863838

exhaust manifolds
2806900 date looks like 1/1/69
2843992 date looks like 2/14/69

IMO the engine is out of a early production '68 c-body 350hp 440. (non-HP)
----- HP 440 (375hp) engines are VIN stamped in model year 1968, non-HP 440 (350hp) engines are NOT VIN stamped in model year 1968.

The exhaust manifolds are from a '69 model year 383 or 440.

[John_Kunkel]

After listening in to countless discussions on numerous forums about '68 block VIN's I have come to the conclusion that there ain't no set rules. Some folks have originals with no VIN, other with top or side VIN's.

One explanation deals with model year versus calendar year and the government mandate being for a calendar year while model production began in September of '67 so there was no actual government VIN mandate until 1-1-'68.

[toxicswan]

The guy who has done a lot of the work on the car found a stamp on the driver side of the block on milled surface where the oil pan attaches that matches the last 8 of the VIN.

The above quote is the only part I found confusing/questionable?

(vehicle identification number) VIN# - XS29L8B104863
(scheduled production date) SPD - 816 ** Wednesday, August 16, 1967 **
(shipping order number) SO# - 101437
core support & trunk lip should be stamped "B8X101437"

Block Cast - 4/4/67
Short Block Assembly - PT 440 2230 1015 (PT = Trenton Engine plant 440 = cu. in. 2230 =  9/5/67 1015 = unit number)
Engine Assembly - D 440 9 5 (D = 1968 model year 440 = cu. in. 9 5 = September 5th)

one head is dated 4/25/67
#402 oil pan correct for '68 Charger R/T

carb
Carter AVS #4429S dated F7 = 6/67
tag #38 = Chrysler part # 2863838

exhaust manifolds
2806900 date looks like 1/1/69
2843992 date looks like 2/14/69

IMO the engine is out of a early production '68 c-body 350hp 440. (non-HP)
----- HP 440 (375hp) engines are VIN stamped in model year 1968, non-HP 440 (350hp) engines are NOT VIN stamped in model year 1968.


The exhaust manifolds are from a '69 model year 383 or 440.

Thanks for the info on the engine serial number and the carb. The manifolds are both dated "68" not "69", but shouldn't they be dated "67"? And after removing the paint on the front of the block you can faintly see an "HP" next to the 440. I was told that there is a way to use acid to bring it out more. You can hardly see it. I think the block must have been decked. But regardless, the block was assembled about 3 weeks later than the SPD. Is that possible?

[John_Kunkel]

Decking the B block will often diminish/obliterate the stampings but not the RB.

Muratic acid will highlight the shallow-stamped numbers but it's dangerous to use and must be thoroughly rinsed off with lots of clear water.

[maxwellwedge]

The Carb is correct for a 68 440 HP Automatic

[toxicswan]

Decking the B block will often diminish/obliterate the stampings but not the RB.

Muratic acid will highlight the shallow-stamped numbers but it's dangerous to use and must be thoroughly rinsed off with lots of clear water.

"RB"?

[maxwellwedge]

RB = Raised Block

413/426 wedge/440   and there was an RB 383 once 1959-1960

B  =  361, 383 400.  I think there was a 350 a long time ago

[1974dodgecharger]

After listening in to countless discussions on numerous forums about '68 block VIN's I have come to the conclusion that there ain't no set rules. Some folks have originals with no VIN, other with top or side VIN's.

One explanation deals with model year versus calendar year and the government mandate being for a calendar year while model production began in September of '67 so there was no actual government VIN mandate until 1-1-'68.

yup...

[Bob T]

Good thread for I.d. info