Which way to go...

[myk]

Hey guys, I've spent the last couple of years trying to get out of debt, and it's finally about to happen in a matter of months.  During this time I've thought about how I'd like to start investing into my '69 Charger but I'm not sure which way to go about it.  

The main problem is that over the years sitting outdoors the car has started developing rust issues, such as the typical rear window panel/area, tail panel, and lower rear fenders.  It's not bad but I know it's only going to get worse.  I drive the car about once a week, but I noticed that it's definitely time for new rubber.  Currently I'm running 15" wheels (245/60/15) but I've been thinking about getting 17" Torq Thrust wheels.  

Now, I know I need the new tires to keep the car driving, but the rust issue is REALLY starting to get me worried.  These are the options I'm mulling over:

*Buy replacement tires for the current wheels, and start saving money to deal with the rust issues.  Replace the tires/wheels later.

*Buy the new wheel/tire set up and then start saving up for the body work.  

*Buy a Prius.

I think the most logical option is buying tires to keep the car on the road, while saving for bodywork because the rust issues are more important than pretty new wheels.  BUT.....I don't want to drop hundreds of dollars on replacement tires when I'm just going to replace them with another wheel/tire setup somewhere down the road anyway-why waste the money?  Even though I'm out of debt I'll only be able to save about $500 a month for the car which really isn't a lot, so I want to make the most of the money I spend.

In any case, I'd appreciate your input and suggestions.  Thanks in advance...

[bobs66440]

I would do whatever it takes to get the rust fixed as soon as possible. Then find a place indoors to keep it. 

If you can see the rust on the outside, then there is likely much more lurking beneath.

[ChargerST]

Rust issues are gonna be the most expensive part down the road - so get a decent car cover at least! or better put it in a garage/storage unit whatever.

As for the wheels and tires: I would just get new tires. Why spend big $$$ on wheels if there is a chance that you need the $$$ elsewhere more important like rust issues. I would get the rust damage fixed asap as it gets worse the repair bill will grow exponentially.

just my  

[myk]

I'll post up some pictures of the rusted areas-I'm sure it's a lot worse than I think it is.  I actually had a thread about it that I posted a few years ago but I can't seem to find it.  I realize that bodywork will be expensive and difficult but I've neglected this car long enough.  If I spent 10K (please lord don't let it be) on bodywork I wouldn't even blink as I'm determined to get this car perfect again.

Thanks for the responses guys...

[Richard Cranium]

Take out a loan & buy one that's done. 

[myk]

Ha ha, I thought about that but after just climbing out of the debt-gutter after all these years I'm not planning on getting dirty again.  I will TRY to be a cash & carry guy from now on.  No more debt!!!!!

[tan top]

Rust issues are gonna be the most expensive part down the road - so get a decent car cover at least! or better put it in a garage/storage unit whatever.

As for the wheels and tires: I would just get new tires. Why spend big $$$ on wheels if there is a chance that you need the $$$ elsewhere more important like rust issues. I would get the rust damage fixed asap as it gets worse the repair bill will grow exponentially.

just my  

I'll post up some pictures of the rusted areas-I'm sure it's a lot worse than I think it is.  I actually had a thread about it that I posted a few years ago but I can't seem to find it.  I realize that bodywork will be expensive and difficult but I've neglected this car long enough.  If I spent 10K (please lord don't let it be) on bodywork I wouldn't even blink as I'm determined to get this car perfect again.

Thanks for the responses guys...

[myk]

Alright, bodywork it is.  Quick question guys.  I'm not sure on the width of my rims, as I said before I've got 245's on them, so I wanted to be sure I could run 255's without any issues, as they seem to be the only size I can find at the moment.  255's should be fine, right?

[doctor4766]

Should be fine. They're probably 7" wide I'm guessing

[bobs66440]

Here's a chart that gives recommendations.
http://customwheelsmarket.com/rimwheelwidth1.html

[myk]

Bob thanks for the link, that's a highly informative site.  I just wish I knew the diameter of the rim itself, like another poster said, probably 7"...

[Rolling_Thunder]

Depends on what you want...    if you want the car PERFECT you'll be taking it apart...    so plan on doing a couple other things besides bodywork while it's apart...      so save up twice what you'll think it's going to cost...     you can get wheels and tires now and keep enjoying it - make it perfect later...       

your call

[myk]

I hear ya RT.  I of course WOULD like the car perfect but my bank account would never allow it.  I know I'm just pulling numbers out of my ass but I'm figuring on spending maybe 20K over the next 5 years.  Again I'm just pulling numbers out of nowhere, and I know that 20K is hardly the amount of money that one spends on a car to make it perfect, but it's the best I can do.  My ultimate goal is just to have a clean, straight, strong daily driver, just like the rest of my cars, so perfection isn't necessary.  Hell, being rust free, with a beefed up suspension, all new, modern wiring, good seats up front and the body in primer would be cool with me lol...

[Rolling_Thunder]

where are you located ?   If you're willing to learn you can save quite a bit of money by doing stuff yourself...       such as repairing the rusted window channel and small body patches...     spot prime and do light body work...    have the whole car repainted later or touch up those areas...          Wiring can be done fairly easy with the knowledge...        suspension is just nuts and bolts...            

[myk]

I'm in San Diego, you're on the east coast, aren't you?  I appreciate the offer though.  The only thing about the car that troubles me is the rust-that's where most of the money will be spent.  You're right, suspension, electrics and all that aren't a problem but I'm a bit of a hack (I'll show you guys my 120 'amp alternator upgrade sometime) so I want a professional touch lol..

[Rolling_Thunder]

I'm on the West Coast buddy...    up in the Los Angeles area...    I go down to SD every once in a while...    If you ever need a hand over a weekend or something let me know - could use it as an excise to take a short vacation   

[major body and motor man]

Just a bit of advice from a professional restoration man, screw the rims, buy cheaper tires and take care of the body asap. Do some research on the net and find a product to stop the rust for now (there are several only a couple of good ones) and save yourself some extra money. Or you could save your money for a few months bring your car out to me when my new shop is put together and you could pay me on a month by month basis and depending on the amount you pay we could progress on your car pretty well. I am located in Southern Colorado and am not a fly by night and will not do a hack job on your car! I've grown up in the business and just decided to venture out on my own when I got tired of all the BS. I'll treat you fair and treat your car as if it were my own pride and joy. If you are interested just send me some pics of the entire car around and underneath and let me know the condition of the trunk pan and floor pans if you know. We will do everything in house so no part of your car will leave my sight. And my wife kids and I do all the work so I know exactly who is working on the cars and not some guy that got hired off the street and may do something stupid or lazy. I'll send you monthly updates of the progress with pictures of the car with me in them so you know it is your car and a monthly list of what we have done. I love chargers and would love to be able to work on yours. The shop is going to be in a nice area and there will be no fear of theft at all. I settled for a small town in order to have the piece of mind that comes with it and being able to get a good nights sleep without running out and checking locks on the shop every hour or so. Let me know. Just email me at caw@gojade.org.
Thanks,
Caleb W. 

[xpbprox]

Hey myk I'm in San diego also, let me know if you need any help. I'd be glad to help, when I can.

[myk]

Wow guys thanks for all of the support.  This is why out of the 4 car-message boards I frequent this one always has the best content.

I'm on the West Coast buddy...    up in the Los Angeles area...    I go down to SD every once in a while...    If you ever need a hand over a weekend or something let me know - could use it as an excise to take a short vacation    

Well if you're ever in town I'm not sure what kind of work we could do on a weekend but you're always welcome to stop by my work and you can have a 1# Fuddrucker's burger on me, lol.

Just a bit of advice from a professional restoration man, screw the rims, buy cheaper tires and take care of the body asap. Do some research on the net and find a product to stop the rust for now (there are several only a couple of good ones) and save yourself some extra money.

A couple of years ago when I noticed the rust I knew I had to do something but didn't have the cash, so I bought some Zero-Rust and Por-15 and treated the rusty areas as much as I could.  My trunk floors are starting to develop some surface rust, though.   Believe it or not, my floor pans are completely rust free-how, I don't know, as every time there's rain the interior gets a little wet. Good luck on your new business by the way.

Hey myk I'm in San diego also, let me know if you need any help. I'd be glad to help, when I can.

That's really cool-what part of San Diego are you in?  Well, since I'll be buying replacement tires and attacking the body work first you'll probably see me and the Orange Machine cruising around town...

[Rolling_Thunder]

we used to have a fuddruckers out here but it vanished...   the closest one is like a 45 min drive from me...         

Well - I have wired a car in a weekend   haha       Pulling an engine, trans, whatever...     I've also stripped an entire car by myself in 8 hours    haha   

[myk]

R/T that's pretty damn impressive.  Well I might have to take you up on something-rewiring the car from front to back with a painless kit is one of my objectives...

[Rolling_Thunder]

rgr -  just let me know

[xpbprox]

I live just by eastlake, in Bonita. What about you?
You wanna know something..... I've never seen another charger in person besides my own in my entire life! But I'm a young guy haha
If you need a body shop, i have a friend that's reasonable (sometimes) and if you need a mechanic, i work at a shop up by downtown

[myk]

Eastlake's supposed to be really nice out there.  Anyway what's the deal with your body-shop buddy?

[xpbprox]

Yeah eastlake's a little to crowded for me, but the body shop i use has my car right now. It's a friend of a friends, they seems good so far, and they warranty their work for as long as you own the car. I've had them do various work on my daily drivers and they did good. They have been reasonable as far as finishing time and even though they mostly do insurance work, they have not forgot about my car.
So far he's sandblasted it for me, primed, and started body work. He's gonna weld my sub-frame connectors in and close up unnecessary holes in the engine bay then pain.

[myk]

Alright thanks for the information.  I'll probably add this shop to the list of shops I'm gong to have to visit as soon as the new tires get in...

[Plum Crazy 68]

There's a couple of us up in the Temecula area that would be glad to lend a hand, and I work in San Diego so if you need anything just send PM. 

[myk]

You guys are the best-thanks again.  Now, if only the people that are actually "IN" the business of working on these cars were as accommodating and trustworthy...   

[myk]

Ok I'm slower than molasses but I got those replacement BF Goodrich tires on finally and figured I'd show you guys the rust spots I'm dealing with.  As you can see, I painted most of the spots with Zero Rust and Por 15 to try and slow the rust down.  My original plan was to find a shop and have them deal with one problem spot at a time, but local car guys are saying that it'd be cheaper to have the whole car done at once.









So how bad off do you guys think my car is?  On another note, it was great being able to roar up and down the hills and freeways without having to worry about a blowout.  I had a few unexpected expenses that have stalled my Charger savings plan but the goals haven't changed.  Again thanks for your input, it's greatly appreciated...

[moparstuart]

 

[twodko]

Hi Myk! First off, Congratulations on becoming debt free!!!!!!! That's huge buddy, huge and no small task either. Man, this is one hell of a group of folks isn't it. Now that you don't have to worry about tires shredding on the fwy he is my   If you can sock away $500 a month without too much pain by all means do so. Price out all the sheet metal/patches you will need (AMD). When you can buy it all at one time, do so. Check out the shop xpbprox mentioned and any others you may have heard good things about. Show the shop(s) your car, tell them you'll provide all the sheet metal/patches and get pricing to R/R this stuff. You see where I'm going here. Piecemealing this project will make you crazy so do big chucks when you have all the parts & labor money in the bank. It'll be instant gratification........boom - all the body repair is done! Then on to the next chapter.  

The big news here is YOU ARE DEBT FREE my man! I'm 60 mile north of SF and I'll be having a glass of wine tonight toasting your financial accomplishment!

[myk]

Alright, so I finally decided on a shop to take care of this rust/body work.  It was good to hear all of the shops I visited remark on how straight and clean the car is.  I'll probably be sending in the car next week, but I can't shake how nervous I am about all of this.  I've grown up learning to distrust the automobile repair industry with an emphasis on body shops, but I've put this off long enough.  I'll walk up to the prettiest girl in the room, wade into the middle of bar fights at work, go skydiving, and even visit the dentist, but the idea of dropping off my car that I've owned since 1994 with these complete strangers is disturbing.  This car took me to my first job, college, first dates.  I used to sleep in this car during camping trips or when I was in the "dog house."  My first street races were with this thing.  Suddenly I'm reminded of all of the history I've had in this rolling hunk of steel.

I plan to visit the car as much as possible, and/or have them send pictures of the work in progress to me, although they're telling me that the work isn't that extensive and shouldn't take more than a month.  On a lighter note, the 'resto shop suggested that I play around with the idea of changing colors.  What do you guys think?  Since I was a wee lad in Catholic school getting spanked by angry nuns I always associated the color orange with 2nd Gen Chargers (thanks Warner Bros.).  What are some your guy's favorite colors?  How about a nice purple, or sublime?  Then, whatever color I decide to go with I should probably look into the wheels as well.  I've seen a lot of torq-thrust II type wheels in varying sizes but after all of these years I still can't decide on anything.  Finally, I think a flat black hood would look great.  Who sells hoods for these cars?  I didn't really see anything on ebay, and I checked out VFN fiberglass but they only sell a stock-type hood.  I was thinking of a hood more along the lines of the Six Pak Super Bee hoods.  Isn't that the same hood that was on the '68 Blade Charger?  Again what do you guys think?  

Well, I'm rambling at this point.  This will be the first major thing I've done to the car after all these years and it's making me antsy.  If there are any questions or suggestions I would greatly appreciate it.  Most of all, I want to thank all of you guys for being a source of information and good company over the years.  Here's to all of our next miles together...

[Ghoste]

Good to know you've decided Myk, can't wait to see the end result.

[myk]

Do I need to notify my insurance company about the car being moved temporarily?  Also, Ghoste what color is that on your car?

Man I just hope they do a good job that lasts.  I can work on cars but I don't know anything about body work.  To me, body work with old cars is like an art form.  You must have a degree of skills when you're doing this sort of thing... 

[xpbprox]

I just got mine back like last month, I got it painted black and it looks bitchen. If you're worried that much, maybe you should look at another place?
Which shop is it?

[myk]

It isn't the shop, it's just the idea of dropping it off somewhere and hoping that all goes well.  Jesus Christ could come down, take it to Heaven's Immaculate Body Shop 'N Tune and I'd still be fidgety.  How much work was done on your car?  Didn't you drop it off some time last summer?

[Joshua]

I'd be scraping off all the rust scales and dirt...cleaning body drain holes to slow the rust down...
Metal takes awhile to rust away....UNLESS it's encased it dirt and debris which has chemicals in which react with the metal....and hold water...
Clean it up and throw some 15" tires on 'er.....leave the 17's back in 2001.......

[myk]

I'd be scraping off all the rust scales and dirt...cleaning body drain holes to slow the rust down...
Metal takes awhile to rust away....UNLESS it's encased it dirt and debris which has chemicals in which react with the metal....and hold water...
Clean it up and throw some 15" tires on 'er.....leave the 17's back in 2001.......

Oh I'm done with that and past that point.  Hopefully by next Tuesday the car will be at the body shop getting the treatment it deserves.  After that I'm planning to rewire the whole car with a Painless kit.  I'm mulling over an engine build for next year and those fancy-pants TTi headers I've heard so much about.  

Meanwhile, I've been asking around to see what color everyone thinks the car should be.  Oddly enough people are telling me to keep it orange.  I was sure people would go for sublime or plum crazy.  A matte/flat black or silver was an idea, too...

[bookedbydano]

If I was in your situation this is what I would do....I have restored one of these beasts ground up doing 98 percent of the work myself and I will tell you it is  expensive...about twice as much as I thought while also messing with your sanity...Now you just being debt free...Awesome!!!! probably one of the best feelings ever,  the last thing I would do would be to take on a big money consuming project like bodywork at a body shop...I would wait till you had at least 6 to 10 grand " A VERY CONSERVATIVE FIGURE AT THAT" in the bank that "you do not touch"  before I would even consider a project like this.  The reason why is this....You are committing a lot of money to a body shop that you may or may not have month to month....you say that you can save 500 dollars a month for the charger in a perfect world....however in life unexpected things always spring up and pretty soon you have a bill to pay and the body shop is in need of your payment  and thus you are back where you were before in debt!!!  Now I know you want your charger fixed and pretty, it would be exciting and make you feel great...However at what cost?  Having to scrap by each month...you just came from that, getting debt free and in my opinion one of the best feelings ever, the feeling of freedom is something  amazing!!!....So In my OPINION   do not do it!!!  Wait and get some cash in the bank first!!!  Then commit some money to the charger project.  The project will be a lot more fun and less worry-some in the long run...  Rust holes or not when you really break it down it is just a car and your life/freedom is the most important!!!

[myk]

Sound advice indeed, however since I first started this thread I started saving money from there.  Including my unusually generous tax refund this year I've got money saved.  Now, I always believe in preparing for the worst so I budgeted a coupla grand over what the body shops told me.  Keep in mind I'm not doing a complete restoration here.  My only goal here is to find and eliminate rust issues, cutting and replacing if necessary, and then slapping on enough paint to seal in the body work.  "If" I have any money left over I will rewire the car; obviously I don't want to fall into debt again.  Next year, in 2013, assuming we don't all die in December, I should have enough money saved to continue with wheel/tire and suspension upgrades, maybe take care of the interior.  Finally, and I guess I was off on my previous post, I'm planning an engine build for 2014/'15.  After that who knows?  I might finally know what color I want to paint the car in and spend good money for in a solid paint job.   All in all, I'm giving myself about 5 years to make major strides in the car.  

Life can get messy and financial matters can get ugly, but that's ok-for this car I have nothing but time and patience for it.  In the meantime, God permitting, I'll continue as I'm doing now, driving the Charger as it gets better with age...

[xpbprox]

Yeah they took longer than expected but it was worth it. I had decent body, a few rust patches had to be done around the windows and on one of the lower quarters the rust completely ate the. Then my left rear quarter panel had about 25 holes in it from someone trying to pull a dent. looked like crap and they fixed it really good

[Joshua]

Meanwhile, I've been asking around to see what color everyone thinks the car should be. 

Having an internet "committee" build YOUR car is not the way to go.....
Pick a color you like and go for it......bonus points if it's NOT a factory color.....

[Bob T]

Good to hear Myk, throw up a few pics when you get a chance.

With regards to the wiring, and a few other threads you had about wiring issues, I think that you're probably on the right track getting by at the moment and putting in a new loom a bit further ahead. I've just had a few weeks worth of late nights and weekends sorting out previous people's wiring hack jobs and I've made some new looms and repaired other sections to get all the guages working. What a mission  
It works but in a word its "Old" and has deterioated with age and osmosis and so with the value of the car all told I would rather buy a complete New Y/O loom probably next year and install it for peace of mind.

Good luck with the body shop

[myk]

Meanwhile, I've been asking around to see what color everyone thinks the car should be.  

Having an internet "committee" build YOUR car is not the way to go.....
Pick a color you like and go for it......bonus points if it's NOT a factory color.....

I know, I know.  However I tend to be very indecisive about such things.  Couldn't decide on my major, what car to drive, what shoes to wear, on and on.  I told the shop I want to leave the car in PRIMER, but they told me I can't do that, because obviously primer is porous and would leave the metal vulnerable to rust again.  I considered a flat black/silver because it would be as close to leaving the car "blank" in color,  but again....I don't know...

Yeah they took longer than expected but it was worth it. I had decent body, a few rust patches had to be done around the windows and on one of the lower quarters the rust completely ate the. Then my left rear quarter panel had about 25 holes in it from someone trying to pull a dent. looked like crap and they fixed it really good

Oh yeah?  How long did they take to do the work?

Good luck with the body shop

Thanks!

[xpbprox]

Body shop guy told me I could leave my car in primer as long as I wanted, he was using some epoxy primer.

[myk]

Really?  Huh.  Well now I'm  going to have to ask about that.  If this dude is taking me for a ride looks like I'm off to another body shop!     I'd be more than happy to leave my car in primer, as I don't think I'll ever settle on a color...

[xpbprox]

Yeah that was actually my original plan, we were just gonna leave it in primer for like 6 month but then I changed my mind. I think back in the day with cheap primer, rust through primer was an issue

[myk]

Now, if you were to leave a car in primer for any given amount of time, wouldn't the car have to be "worked over" again to be made ready for paint?  That seems to me like a waste of effort and accompanying money to boot?  I'm sure a body shop wouldn't let that extra work go uncharged? 

[xpbprox]

Yeah, probably. I'm sure being dried that long, it probably won't be as effective....
I couldn't afford to do everything at once but somehow just made t happen and I'm glad I got it all painted.

[myk]

Well, dropped the car off this morning.  I still have to pick a color but I'm a few weeks out from that point because of the bodywork so I've got time to mull it over.  A friend of mine who was giving me a ride home was road raging with an Escalade and almost wiped out but I didn't care because I was going over the projected schedule for the body work.  Is it customary for the shop to take and/or provide pictures of progress?  I told the owner I wanted to be as involved as possible.  I feel I should check on the car every day but I guess that might be a little annoying. 

To those of you who farmed out paint and body work how did you guys keep track of your car's progress?  Did you visit?  If so, how often?  Did you have phone conversations or have pictures sent to you? 

[Supercharged Riot]

If you're concerned about having something to drive on a daily basis and still fund your Charger project, you're in the same boat as I was. Except I was never in debt.
You can take my approach:

Buy a cheap small used reliable daily driver that is low cost of maintenance and easy to fix on your own (old Honda civic)  easily found for under $3,000
Buy some used tires to keep your car rolling ($20-$25 a piece)
Start spending your money on body work to save your car.

[myk]

A daily driver isn't a problem-I've definitely got that covered.  As a matter of fact, I've got some maintenance to do on the rest of the squadron now that the Charger is being worked on.  Installing shocks, an intake manifold and replacing a coolant level sensor come to mind...

Bright side is I now have a driveway to work on my other cars instead of being in the street lol...

[doctor4766]

Well, dropped the car off this morning.  I still have to pick a color but I'm a few weeks out from that point because of the bodywork so I've got time to mull it over.  A friend of mine who was giving me a ride home was road raging with an Escalade and almost wiped out but I didn't care because I was going over the projected schedule for the body work.  Is it customary for the shop to take and/or provide pictures of progress?  I told the owner I wanted to be as involved as possible.  I feel I should check on the car every day but I guess that might be a little annoying.  

To those of you who farmed out paint and body work how did you guys keep track of your car's progress?  Did you visit?  If so, how often?  Did you have phone conversations or have pictures sent to you?  

I would drop in every two or three days when mine was in the shop. I told the shop owner that I wasnted to take lots of pics and he was very obliging. I made sure not to get in anyone's way though and kept the visits faiirly short. That way I never pissed anyone off.

[myk]

That sounds reasonable to me.  Did you notice progress every time you visited the shop?  Obviously the amount of work performed by every employee depends on how much work needs to be done.  Fortunately, my shop doesn't really deal with insurance work so there won't be any of that getting in the way of things...