Yet ANOTHER problem expected from the weenie greenie movement....

[Kern Dog]

Recent reports are forecasting an impending crisis as the sales of "Plug in Electric" cars increase: The higher demands of an already overstresses power grid.
For years, we have been advised to avoid using our washer/dryer and any other high demand appliances during the 5-7 PM periods in the summer to reduce the chances of blackouts. Now imagine hoards of "Eco-Friendly" types getting home from work at about the same time, plugging in their cars, also at around the same time......Get your candles ready. Our electrical infrastructure is already operating far beyond its designed usage. This certainly will not help much.

[resq302]

Granted, I don't own one but Ive heard that they will not use a standard plug and you will have to do some electrical conversion or upgrade for the service in your house.  I honestly don't see this effecting anything in the near future short term wise but probably in the next 10-15 years, it might cause a major problem like you are saying.

[Kern Dog]

It won't matter whether the cars charging system used a 220v or 110v plug. It all will still be drawing from the same system. The alternative could be a small generator, but then wheres the gain? You are now using a GASOLINE engine to charge your electric car. Who puts emission devices on a generator though? The result is MORE smog! Theres the fatal flaw in electric cars: You are trading mobile emissions from the vehicle being driven versus stationary emissions from the power plant needed to supply electricity.

[Charger_Fan]

I'm still holding out for a "Jetsons" flying car...although I'd order one with a tinted bubble top.

[RallyeMike]

It won't matter whether the cars charging system used a 220v or 110v plug. It all will still be drawing from the same system. The alternative could be a small generator, but then wheres the gain? You are now using a GASOLINE engine to charge your electric car. Who puts emission devices on a generator though? The result is MORE smog! Theres the fatal flaw in electric cars: You are trading mobile emissions from the vehicle being driven versus stationary emissions from the power plant needed to supply electricity.

I don't claim to know the whole country, but I can tell you about the power utility here: In the Pacific NW, a lot of the power is hydro. No pollution or greenhouse gases. The power utility that serves my area has studied the eventually coming of the electric car in mass (just as most utilities have). They do want to upgrade some feeder cables and such in weaker areas, but it's not much work beyond normal operations, and minor portions of the overall budget of a power utility.

In North America, there is a ton of wind and solar coming on line, or planned to come on line. Conservation efforts are saving tons (insulation, efficient appliances, HVAC, and lighting). Additionally, there are several regulatory agencies that require very strict compliance of utilities to ensure reliable power, including generating capacity, transmission between utilities to balance loads, and maintenance and upgrading of a utilities. Look up FERC and NERC for starters. They regularly audit power utilities to ensure they comply in providing reliable power including fines of up to $1M per day for violation. These agencies all came to be after the brownout and power outages in eastern USA 30 +/- years ago.

$1M per day! Do you really think the utilities are going to let the load from electric cars (which isn't horribly significant) cost them that much? There are a lot of smart people motivated to profit (or maintain profits) on this subject. I'm not saying everything will be perfect - rarely is anything, because people are faulty, but the sky is NOT falling.

[rp23g7]

I had a argument with a Prius driver at a gas station once when I was out in the Coronet.  He started with "nice car", "what engine" an then "what milage"

When i answered "Dont know, dont really care"  He asks "do you think thats responsible"

I asked if this is going to turn into a green conversation.   "  well i was going to say....."   I say, "Hey, my car has paid its debt to the environment, its 41 yrs old, and i am recycling"  "before you start asking me about gas milage, you go to the nearest marina, an ask the guy with a 454, or twin 454's in his boat what he gets for Gallons per mile, He cant get out of the marina on a gallon of gas"

"and you have lithium batteries in your car right??"    Yes, Well go home an google a Lithuim mine, then let me know whos polluting the environment.

That shut him up

[Kern Dog]

HA !!
I love it!

[twodko]

Another member posted his response to one of these Pious driving "green" dickhead hypocrites, he said:

"Keep driving that Pious, there's more gas for me."

[rp23g7]

Another member posted his response to one of these Pious driving "green" dickhead hypocrites, he said:

"Keep driving that Pious, there's more gas for me."

haha thats what my license plate on the Coronet reads, "Buy a Hybrid, I Need Your Gas"

[John_Kunkel]

It won't matter whether the cars charging system used a 220v or 110v plug. It all will still be drawing from the same system. The alternative could be a small generator, but then wheres the gain?

Think "solar"....they're already offering solar chargers for electric cars.

[resq302]

I had a argument with a Prius driver at a gas station once when I was out in the Coronet.  He started with "nice car", "what engine" an then "what milage"

When i answered "Dont know, dont really care"  He asks "do you think thats responsible"

I asked if this is going to turn into a green conversation.   "  well i was going to say....."   I say, "Hey, my car has paid its debt to the environment, its 41 yrs old, and i am recycling"  "before you start asking me about gas milage, you go to the nearest marina, an ask the guy with a 454, or twin 454's in his boat what he gets for Gallons per mile, He cant get out of the marina on a gallon of gas"

"and you have lithium batteries in your car right??"    Yes, Well go home an google a Lithuim mine, then let me know whos polluting the environment.

That shut him up

Where is the "Like" button on here!  Thats classic, absolutely classic!

[Cooter]

I like the idea of a smaller fuel bill during the work week..Sure who wouldn't, but when they can build an electric truck that will tow 7500 LBs uphill without losing sugnificant speed, I'll stick to buring dead dinosaurs....

[rp23g7]

I had a argument with a Prius driver at a gas station once when I was out in the Coronet.  He started with "nice car", "what engine" an then "what milage"

When i answered "Dont know, dont really care"  He asks "do you think thats responsible"

I asked if this is going to turn into a green conversation.   "  well i was going to say....."   I say, "Hey, my car has paid its debt to the environment, its 41 yrs old, and i am recycling"  "before you start asking me about gas milage, you go to the nearest marina, an ask the guy with a 454, or twin 454's in his boat what he gets for Gallons per mile, He cant get out of the marina on a gallon of gas"

"and you have lithium batteries in your car right??"    Yes, Well go home an google a Lithuim mine, then let me know whos polluting the environment.

That shut him up

Where is the "Like" button on here!  Thats classic, absolutely classic!

thought you guys would like that.

[mauve66]

consumer reports said that the likely hood of getting your money back on a chevy volt was really out there, considering theres cost them more than $40K and only got about 40 mpg,  my suzuki got 33+ mpg back in '89 and sounded good doing it (twin cam-7800RPM redline), technology hasn't come very far in 22 years

[1969chargerrtse]

consumer reports said that the likely hood of getting your money back on a chevy volt was really out there, considering theres cost them more than $40K and only got about 40 mpg,  my suzuki got 33+ mpg back in '89 and sounded good doing it (twin cam-7800RPM redline), technology hasn't come very far in 22 years

It's not 40,000.00  it's 33,000.00 and the 40 mpg is when on gas.  The purpose of the car is 40 miles on electric which is about 1/7th the cost of burning gas.  The car is designed for round trips under 40miles which 75% of Americans do to go to work.  The Volt is a winner, there's no other way to look at it.  As these cars come out, better and better ones will follow.  We are at the beginning here, what was the gas engine like when it was a " hit and miss " engine a 100.00 years ago?

[Old Moparz]

If I had to, I'd pick one of these over the other electrics or hybrids offered....

http://www.aptera.com/

I read about this one a couple of years ago & thought it would be great as a "second" car to use locally. The ability to be able to have the choice, or the option, to use gas one day & electric the next, is more appealing to me than confined to just one fuel. Leave the electric plugged in & it's ready, drive the gas powered one if the electric isn't charged.

A hybrid makes good sense, but I really want to see these things able to charge themselves before I ever consider buying one. It CAN'T be that difficult to do. Anyone remember having one of the bicycle headlights that ran off a small generator that was powered by the generator's drive wheel rubbing against the bike tire? This can do the same thing to charge a battery.

[RallyeMike]

As these cars come out, better and better ones will follow.  We are at the beginning here

Exactly. Yet people seem to look for any excuse to denigrate the electric car. If you don't want one, don't buy one. The "greenies" can suffer and be the experimental subject of this new technology, and the rest can reap the rewards as these cars improve! The gasoline-powered car suffered from detractors when it started to emerge as new technology as it was noisy, smelly, rough-riding, and unreliable. Thankfully we didn't give up on the gasoline car 100 years ago.

[madmike]

It doesn't matter how much 'tons of new wind mills and solar power' you bring on-line.  You still couldn't produce a tenth of the power produced by good old fashioned coal fired power plants.  I'm all in favor of developing new technologies to increase power supply, but people (the government) is nuts if they think they can 'go green' in a matter of a few years, and eliminate old technology.  I'm also in favor of the old fashioned way of bringing these new technologies to bear - through supply/demand and capitalism, not some government 'official' or 'czar' making the rules as they go along.

I personally can't see myself ever owning an electric car...

[Kern Dog]

I like your perspective, Mike.
Why replace something when current technology still works and all the support system is integrated to it? gasoline works. Coal works.

[six-tee-nine]

The electric car is a child born dead to me.
Not suitable for trucks or to haul loads, not for heavy industrial equipment, not for planes, not for boats.
Then when all these tree huggers buy a new car in say 10 to 15 years from now all these extreme environmental unfriendly batteries need to be recycled.....

OK I admit things might of been a little crazy 40 years ago but thats how it was and we aint gonna change that anymore. However I think oversizing is useless because todays technology in engine design proves that the modern common rail Diesel engines use up to 50% less than 30 years ago and with twice the power......
And there are IMO other waaaay better ideas coming up lately, for instance I read an article lately that Audi is developing a system to have a conventionel car as the ones we know today run on synthetic liquid pertolium gaz. They claim the gaz can be designed to be extremely ozone friendly (cant remember the exact figures). And on top of all that the syntetic gaz can be produced in a powerplant wich would be powerd by windmills to keep it all green....
That just to give an example about whats boiling in the industry.
In the end all that the car manufarurers want is for us to buy new cars. (no more gas = car manufacturers bancrupt) so if they ned to they will desing new things to keep us driving and there's not a single oil baron thats gonna be able to stop that.

[Mike DC]

Personally, I like Appalachia with the tops still on the mountains. 

Let's keep looking for options to spread some of the energy load on coal. 

[mauve66]

consumer reports said that the likely hood of getting your money back on a chevy volt was really out there, considering theres cost them more than $40K and only got about 40 mpg,  my suzuki got 33+ mpg back in '89 and sounded good doing it (twin cam-7800RPM redline), technology hasn't come very far in 22 years

It's not 40,000.00  it's 33,000.00 and the 40 mpg is when on gas.  The purpose of the car is 40 miles on electric which is about 1/7th the cost of burning gas.  The car is designed for round trips under 40miles which 75% of Americans do to go to work.  The Volt is a winner, there's no other way to look at it.  As these cars come out, better and better ones will follow.  We are at the beginning here, what was the gas engine like when it was a " hit and miss " engine a 100.00 years ago?

not detracting just reporting the facts

http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/magazine-archive/2011/april/cars/chevrolet-volt/overview/index.htm

i'm sorry, your right, their car didn't cost $40K it cost $48,700.00
but lets get it straight, MY taxes will give owners a rebate of $7,500.00 (even though you've already financed that part of the deal so you really don't get that much back over your 5-7 year loan) so it will only cost $43,700.00 but ok, lets take the dealer markup off just cause its new (cause ya know the dealers will just let 5 grand slide) so now we're down to $38,700.00

oh yeah, and now that they won't be using so much gas the usdot is already looking at a miles driven tax when you register all cars to offset the lack of gasoline taxes (they just had an open house discussion here in nevada) ,
(just like mopar collectors guide stated a couple of years ago by the way) so once again people with "regular" cars will be paying more to help fund the greeny cars

[Nacho-RT74]

ANYTHING YOU DO, CREATES POLLUTION OR DAMAGES THE ENVIROMENT SOMEHOW, sooo... just live and let die.

Even electricity creates polution ( charcoal, gas oil plants, nuclear... only one what helps its hidroelectric and still those affects somehow )

however I think we can still work together on get a better world, being responsable, without needing to be a greenie

[Mike DC]

The playing field is a long way from level between gas & alternative fuels right now.  Petroleum in general is heavily subsidized in indirect ways, not even counting the nation's foreign policy & the two wars.  We'd probably be paying most of $10/gallon if they leveled things out completely.  

[Paul G]

I believe the more advanced chargers will wait till off peak, evenings, before it starts charging your car.

The utility companys are more concerned with the load on neighborhood transformers than the power grid itself. Most of the local transformers are very old, not designed for the use they are seeing today. They will need to be swapped out eventually as the automotive load starts to increase. There was an article about this in the paper a few months back.

Electric power in automobiles is here to stay. IMO 10 years from now almost all cars will have some form of "hybrid" technology. It will be the norm. 

[Mopar440+6]

...As these cars come out, better and better ones will follow.  We are at the beginning here, what was the gas engine like when it was a " hit and miss " engine a 100 years ago?

Just to make a point, ever research a "Hit-and-Miss" engine? A 1hp "hit-n-miss" engine can run all day on less than a quart of gasoline. You want efficiency, that was the peak. It went down hill from there. Also, when the diesel engine was invented it was designed to run on peanut oil. Until 10-15 years ago when diesel prices hit the ceiling, very few people even attempted to run a bio-based fuel. No matter what we do it is GOING to have a major impact on the environment, simply because of the sheer number of vehicles on this planet. I'm not saying I know what the solution to this problem is; I just think there is a better solution than electric cars...

Something to look into if you're bored: Changing World Technologies

[Ghoste]

I wonder what the norm will be in China and India in 10 to 15 years as far as their participation in the "green" movement?

[71wrenchhead]

there is something better than the whole electric deal
hydrogen
right now its not practical, but there are companies working on getting the power required to continue to operate the current demand on cars
essentially it should be an easy switch ie. same time and process to "fill up" same "mileage" or better.
the only thing that i see as a problem, if all the cars the run on hydrogen only produce water as an emission, then uh, arent all the roads going to be soaked?

[twodko]

As someone here already mentioned, electric cars died at birth. Not practical and cause just as much poluution as gas vehicles. Why? Oil, coal etc fired power plants.
Fuel cells will the norm soon, most likely hydrogen based. 

[twodko]

As someone here already mentioned, electric cars died at birth. Not practical and cause just as much poluution as gas vehicles. Why? Oil, coal etc fired power plants.
Fuel cells will the norm soon, most likely hydrogen based. 

[Kern Dog]

You can say that again.

[Paul G]

I would not give up on electric assist so easily. Maybe because I am an industrial electrician, I see first hand how electronic motor control has evolved through the years. The electric drive they are using in these cars is very similar to what we have been using in industrial processes for years now. Electronic motor starting and variable frequency drive technology has become the industry standard. They operate very efficiently, maximum torque from 0 RPM, very low maintenance. Perfect to help get a car moving, or just add torque when needed. Plus, they regenerate power on deceleration to recharge the power cell.

I think hydrogen is the long term solution as well. But, it's years away before it becomes cheap enough, and safe enough, to mass produce. We have been spending our research dollar on power storage, battery technology, more than how to generate power from hydrogen, safely.   

[440]

Nuclear is the greenest technology so far, but also has the highest potential for catastrophic a disaster....

[68blue]

Electric cars look like a warm climate city car to me, I have wondered about the life of the batteries and cost of replacement though.

[Paul G]

Electric cars look like a warm climate city car to me, I have wondered about the life of the batteries and cost of replacement though.

How long has the Prius been out? 10+ years or so? Never hear of battery replacement. Then again, I dont frequent Toyota websites or Toyota anything. 

Any one know?

[resq302]

Electric cars look like a warm climate city car to me, I have wondered about the life of the batteries and cost of replacement though.

How long has the Prius been out? 10+ years or so? Never hear of battery replacement. Then again, I dont frequent Toyota websites or Toyota anything. 

Any one know?

I heard of one going bad just after the warranty was up.  Cost the owner $8000 to get replaced.  Basically what he saved for in gas over the years cost him one lump sum for a battery!  Pay me a little now over time or pay me a lot later!

[twodko]

I would not give up on electric assist so easily. Maybe because I am an industrial electrician, I see first hand how electronic motor control has evolved through the years. The electric drive they are using in these cars is very similar to what we have been using in industrial processes for years now. Electronic motor starting and variable frequency drive technology has become the industry standard. They operate very efficiently, maximum torque from 0 RPM, very low maintenance. Perfect to help get a car moving, or just add torque when needed. Plus, they regenerate power on deceleration to recharge the power cell.

I think hydrogen is the long term solution as well. But, it's years away before it becomes cheap enough, and safe enough, to mass produce. We have been spending our research dollar on power storage, battery technology, more than how to generate power from hydrogen, safely.   

True & true. Torque monsters.

[71wrenchhead]

japan already came up with a new way to mass produce hydrogen recently, ill try and find the site later.
i think the difficulty is comming from devising a standard, cheap, effective, and safe way to do it, as well as making sure there is a smooth transition from gas to hydrogen when the time comes to switch.
In any case, im all for saving the enviroment, so long as the car makes some kind of sound, and produces enough power for me to have fun with and enjoy my drive.
If it cant do that, then im buying a helicopter and parachuting into work from now on. 

[Troy]

Electric cars look like a warm climate city car to me, I have wondered about the life of the batteries and cost of replacement though.

How long has the Prius been out? 10+ years or so? Never hear of battery replacement. Then again, I dont frequent Toyota websites or Toyota anything. 

Any one know?

Yes, they do go bad. Toyota even extended the warranty to 10 years because the first models only had an 8 year warranty and it costs about $3,500-4,500 for a new battery. If you drive a car for 8 years and the value is hovering around $9-12k would you pay that much to replace the battery? You can get used batteries from the junk yard but no one with a Prius wants to recycle (that's a joke but it seems true in this case). The "green" argument has been that the prices will come down as more cars are produced and battery technology improves. I agree - but that doesn't help the guy who needs one today.

Troy

[Mike DC]

 . . . assuming we really believe the whole premise that vehicle battery technology will cheapen & improve in a significant way in the near term. 

[Silver R/T]

It won't matter whether the cars charging system used a 220v or 110v plug. It all will still be drawing from the same system. The alternative could be a small generator, but then wheres the gain? You are now using a GASOLINE engine to charge your electric car. Who puts emission devices on a generator though? The result is MORE smog! Theres the fatal flaw in electric cars: You are trading mobile emissions from the vehicle being driven versus stationary emissions from the power plant needed to supply electricity.

I don't claim to know the whole country, but I can tell you about the power utility here: In the Pacific NW, a lot of the power is hydro. No pollution or greenhouse gases. The power utility that serves my area has studied the eventually coming of the electric car in mass (just as most utilities have). They do want to upgrade some feeder cables and such in weaker areas, but it's not much work beyond normal operations, and minor portions of the overall budget of a power utility.

In North America, there is a ton of wind and solar coming on line, or planned to come on line. Conservation efforts are saving tons (insulation, efficient appliances, HVAC, and lighting). Additionally, there are several regulatory agencies that require very strict compliance of utilities to ensure reliable power, including generating capacity, transmission between utilities to balance loads, and maintenance and upgrading of a utilities. Look up FERC and NERC for starters. They regularly audit power utilities to ensure they comply in providing reliable power including fines of up to $1M per day for violation. These agencies all came to be after the brownout and power outages in eastern USA 30 +/- years ago.

$1M per day! Do you really think the utilities are going to let the load from electric cars (which isn't horribly significant) cost them that much? There are a lot of smart people motivated to profit (or maintain profits) on this subject. I'm not saying everything will be perfect - rarely is anything, because people are faulty, but the sky is NOT falling.

I also live in NW. Our local power company is already overcharging us and raises utility costs every year. You know what they did to please customer? They send 8 spiral energy-saving bulbs per customer. WOW, thanks for nothing Avista. I'm sure they will increase energy rates even more once we get more of these electric "mobiles" going down the road. Average taxpayer will pay for them, even if they don't own one.

[Budnicks]

If you live in the mountains or foothills or just a hilly town/city like S.F. the electric cars really suck in the up hill trips, "can we say gutless" & regenerate power on the down hill side as long as your not running low on battery power going up hill, you will maybe be OK... Also there are some performance versions but are like $100K or more Lotus bodied, Tesla & Jaguar are starting to make or at least R&D or prototype some sedans & upscale "high dollar I'm sure" versions supposedly, along with the "tax payer subsidized" GM Volts amongst others proposed... They are still far from being an "affordable or reliable" option yet, for the common person or performance car enthusiast... There is a company, I don't remember the name, that make a "Cobra" (like the AC Fiberglass Cobra Body Replica) Electric car, they aren't cheap either 200 miles extended range supposedly...

[aussiemuscle]

The alternative could be a small generator, but then wheres the gain? You are now using a GASOLINE engine to charge your electric car.

no different from pulling the power from a coal power plant

[J-440]

  Doesn't China control  70% of the world's mines where these rare earth metals come from in order to produce the lithium batteries in all of these electric cars?  That's not very reassuring.  Not only can I not afford a Chevy Volt but if I could I will not be buying anything from a company that got a bailout from the Feds.  My 401K is still short a couple thousand because of those union a-holes.  Also, Jeffrey Imelt the head of GM (Obama's job Czar) was quoted as trying to get gas prices higher than normal in order for the people to be forced to buy a Volt.  Funny, because GM loves sending jobs to China.  So the unions screw GM and Imelt screws them back.  I'm down with letting electric cars prosper because as a lot of ya'll stated earlier, there will be more gas for my Charger.