Build advice...yup another one

[ugly2u]

 

I m a total beginner when it comes to building engines. I have read tons of posts and a big block book. I know just enough to buy the wrong stuff and be disappointed. So many people on the board have been very helpful, and i was hoping for some advise. I could not have built this car from the boxes of parts I bought without your help. Thank you in advance.

I pulled the motor after it was making some horrible knocking noise, that seemed like a spun bearing. As I tore it apart, I couldn't find the problem. Im guessing it was a blown lifter, but am waiting to hear from the machine shop. I only found #8 with oil in the cylinder. It only has 3000 mile on it since rebuild and restoration. Now the car is sitting with no motor, and I figure I might as well add some performance while I have it apart.


here is what I have and will probably keep
'69 440 block bored .030 over
HP exhaust manifolds
3" exhaust with H pipe and flowmaster 70
stock oil pump
850 CFM AVS edelbrock carb
pushrods
unknown pistons and rods- flat on the top
TCI 3000 stall converter
727 trans
3.23 8 3/4 rear

thinking about buying
edelbrock 60929 heads 84cc
edelbrock performer intake
lunati cam (which one?)
milodon 7 qt pan with windage tray


I drive the charger a lot. While I love excess power, I would drive it less if gas mileage was 5 MPG. any idea what MPG I can expect from a combo like this? is it worth stroking the motor while i'm in there?

I like the track, but it mostly sees street driving. Thanks for your help, I'm ready to drive...

[HardCharger500]

  Hi.  Below is my engine combo & performance.
I have a 440 stroker(496) It has 10:1 with 193lbs cranking pressure. 18inches vacuum @ 800rpm. Comp-Cams 294solid 248@050 Lift 0.560 with 1:6 Rockers.Installed straight-up. 
Was using Weiand Xcelerator 7512 Single-Plane Manifold. 650 D/P Holley. Were using Hughes Engines Heads,Stage 2  452's Factory Iron.
Now running Stealth/440 Source which have same pressure & revability. 6800 in 1st & 2nd on 4-Speed New-Process with 2:75 Gears out back.
The car with myself on board weighs 3960lbs, plus fuel,& runs 12:00-12:25@117-118mph in the 1/4 mile.
Had it on a chasis dyno & the 650 was only down 13 HP down on the 850 D/P.
Actually, its the 850 i use to produce those 1/4 mile times, but that 650 is a real side-winder as well. Pulls best to about 5800-6000.
A bigger cam would definately make it a lot quicker, but then my fuel consumption would go through the roof.
  I would recommend you get the book "How to Build Max-Performance Big-Blocks" by Andy Finkbeiner.
He tried a lot of different cams,& found that the Mopar Performance Cam; Solid,0.528 Lift; 112 Lobe Seperation was the best for a street car.
He says it would have good street manners & was still capable of making 600 HP.
I am certain it would pull harder than the cam I use.
  My weight & terminal speed in a Horse-Power calculator says it makes 508 HP at the wheels.
At the drags, i am some-what into 3rd.   It would be well in the 11's,with low gears, but this is a car i can just loaf around in,&,once moving at 10-15 mph, will blow the socks off most comers.
Quite happy with tall gears, after-all, low gearing only has the punch in that first instant.
In low, with full tank of juice & 60ft of 5/8th chain in the boot,& the 850 on, she'll srew sideways every time even if i accelerate smoothly & then at say 50-60mph push that last third of throttle. Tires are 255x45x17 ZR-Sumitomo's.
I'm 55 & been running worked 440's since '87 & have a good understanding mechanically & do all my own work; suspension; brakes; diff; gear-boxes etc:
I use to be an incredibly hard road-driver, but they would jail me if they caught me today; now i just have memories of what use to be.
Hope this can give you some direction for an economical, yet easy to drive, powerful street car.
Yee! Harrr!
Mike in New Zealand

[ugly2u]

That is awesome. Thanks for the insight. Your car sounds like fun to drive.

Maybe a cam with high .4 low .5 lift would be a good choice of cam? Will my old torquer II intake work with my combo?

[Chryco Psycho]

Kinda need to ask a lot of questions
How much performance do you want , I assume you want to keep it streetable as that is what you use it for the most .
On a typical rebuild the stroker is definatly worth doing it would not cost much more than rebuilding the stock parts , in your case the stock parts don't need to be rebuilt if it was rebuilt 300 miles ago so maybe not , the stroker 512 ci is an awesome up grade reducing rotating mass & incresing CI at the same time .
You will need a different piston with alum heads , you want to have 11:1 compression to offset the heat loss to alum , I have done the ported iron head to alum eddy swap without changing pistons  & after all the work we gained 2 RWHP on the dyno !! Hardly worht the $1600 !!
What do you want in a cam , hyd or solid ? I have been using solid Lunati custom grinds close to .600 lift with street roller manners so it will idle & make decent vacuum but really turn on the power .
Milage is no issue , well tuned with good parts you can get 15+ mpg .
I would recommend punting the eddy carb & switch to a Proform approx 2x the CI , 440 = 850 , 512 = maybe 950
The torker is useable , not the best intake but not bad 

[Budnicks]

The Eddy Performer RPM 929 84cc 291cfm stock out of the box & easy to get a bunch more for a few extra dollar in port & bowl work ,this head choice is a great upgrade, you get more than just the improved performance aspects, blind exhaust bolt hole not going into the water jackets, blocked off heat riser area to keep intake cooler for more performance, you get hard seats, better parts including larger valves, springs, retainers & locks, lighter weight 50+ lbs, better oiling & better flame travel because of angled plugs will have less problems with detonation ... Any 4.15" stroker kit especially a quality kit, will help with HP/TQ, but the more cubes you add the chances are the worse gas mileage you will get along with it,  get a cam that matches your type of driving needs it's the heart beat of the motor & the heads are the lungs, so it would be best to match your components to your needs... I would call Mancini Racing or Comp Cams, Lunati, Huges, Iski, even Crane for cam suggestion you can get both of best worlds, performance & driveability with a Hydraulic Roller Camshaft & adjustable rockers (rollers preferred) & hyd. roller lifter, if it's going to driven on the street a lot 0.525"-0.550" gross valve lift is about all you will ever need on the street or track unless it's an all out racer or light weight car, with out adding a ton of cubic inches... I would suggest some thing in the 225* duration @ 0.050 &  no less than 110 lobe centers (112 lc's would be even better) or vacuum will suffer dearly, the Torker II will work there are much better manifolds out there, you may loose alittle bottom end torque a dualm plane intake would be better for torque, it may not be worth the money for a couple to 15hp/tq increase that's really your choice, by all mean use a Holley dual feed or double pumper carburetor there are spread bore type carbs that have small primaries & large secondaries that will help a little with fuel mileage they are far more responsive & easier for the novice to tune than the Eddy Carbs Or Carters unless your well versed on them &  know how to tune them properly... A quality ignition system is very important also it's the brain of your engine, get a balanced matched quality crankshaft vibration damper, match the gearing & T/Q coverter... Then you will have a well performing reliable engine car combo... The only real disadvantage to the Eddy RPM heads is there are some headers that will have clearance issues with the angle plugs, with stock HP manifolds there is no clearance problems what so ever... This type of engine combo is "Capable of 1.5hp per/ci & up to 2.06hp per/cfm of head flow" with properly match components.... Good luck...

[ugly2u]

Good feedback, but I guess there are more questions to answer.

Since the motor was bored and built recently, I'm hoping to salvage some parts. But, it seems like an upgrade to eddy heads will require pistons and rods too. I'm quickly going to spend over $3000.

If I could get 15mpg I probably would drive it even more often....

Not that I'm building a strip car, but the best of both worlds would be an 11-12 sec car that gets 15 mpg. Is it possible? I would be bummed with an 11 sec car getting 5 mpg; I just wouldn't drive it much. I would also not be happy with a 15 sec car getting 15 mpg.

Am I stuck replacing all the parts to get what I want? Or can some parts be salvaged?

[Budnicks]

Good feedback, but I guess there are more questions to answer.

Since the motor was bored and built recently, I'm hoping to salvage some parts. But, it seems like an upgrade to eddy heads will require pistons and rods too. I'm quickly going to spend over $3000.

If I could get 15mpg I probably would drive it even more often....

Not that I'm building a strip car, but the best of both worlds would be an 11-12 sec car that gets 15 mpg. Is it possible? I would be bummed with an 11 sec car getting 5 mpg; I just wouldn't drive it much. I would also not be happy with a 15 sec car getting 15 mpg.

Am I stuck replacing all the parts to get what I want? Or can some parts be salvaged?

It really depends on what you actually have (what compression) the 10.5-11:1 compression ratio is defenently better with any aluminum cylinder head & what your trying to install with the EDDY 929 closed chamber heads w/84cc combustion chambers, the 84cc head will give you a bit more compression than the stock 90+cc combustion chambers of the 906 cast iron head that came on the 68-70 383/440 HP engines... It depends on camshaft lift, duration, overlap & piston deck height, head gasket thickness, volume & bore size to get what actual compression ratio you will end up with...(Go to www.walaceracing.co/Calculators.htm) they have interactive calculator formulas there... If you have the 452 casting it will be a nominal difference in compression... You don't need different pistons & rod if you go to the EDDY heads unless your current pistons are above the deck surface, less than preferably "10:1 compression with 84cc combustion chambers" or you use a 0.600" or higher lift cam shaft, then the heads & pistons will need valve notches in the pistons & the guide under the valves cut down to clear more than 0.600" gross lift & the proper springs, retainer & locks/keepers to go with that type of thing, your rods & piston would need to be changed if you were to go the stroker route for sure, then you will need to do all the typical machine work & balancing necessary for that type of build...

[ugly2u]

So if I read correctly, i can add the eddy heads and an improved cam, but still use my previous pistons if they dont extend above the deck? Seems like I have read several reccomendations for the Lunati Cams. Any idea which model will keep me under .600 gross lift so I can keep the previous pistons/ rod combo?

Gonna hold on the stroker I guess. Thanks!

[Chryco Psycho]

the 906 heads are closer to 88-90 cc not 96
you want to get as close to 11:1 as possible with alum heads , Make sure you use cometic gaskets to keep the gaskets from tearing with the different expansion rates of iron & alum .
What do you want for a cam , Hyd flat tappet , solid FT , roller ?
I use TF series lobes , around .570-.580 lift soild falt tappet , with good idle charicteristics

[ugly2u]

Im not sure what type of cam I want. I guess that is where I could use advise. I drive it on the street 98% of the time. I would like good power, but not extremely low fuel economy.

Any thoughts?

[Chryco Psycho]

well tuned even with an agressive cam you can still have good fuel economy just design the parts to work topgether in the powerband you want , I use agressive solid flat tappet cam with street roller type specs , lots of lift & duration taylored to make the power in the range you need 

[Budnicks]

the 906 heads are closer to 88-90 cc not 96
you want to get as close to 11:1 as possible with alum heads , Make sure you use cometic gaskets to keep the gaskets from tearing with the different expansion rates of iron & alum .
What do you want for a cam , Hyd flat tappet , solid FT , roller ?
I use TF series lobes , around .570-.580 lift soild falt tappet , with good idle charicteristics

Your correct Psycho! I replaced the 96cc w/90+cc it was a just typo, you know fat fingers & not proof reading, Sorry for any confusions it may have caused....