WHAT A DILEMMA!!!!!!

[Nacho-RT74]

OK, AS MANY OF YOU KNOW I have been trying to build my 400 with 383 forged crank, KB240 pistons, porting ( allmost done ) and milling ( not yet ) 452 heads, metallic headgaskets, larger valves now, Performer manifold, Stock HP manifolds, 175K MP converter, 280/474 MP cam. Working to get 9.3 to 9.5 CR.

NOT WITHOUT DELAYS OR PROBLEMS ALL AROUND!!!! as you will read

I got the "wished" crank, not cheap but not expensive either, suposselly standart... went to the machine shop and they told me it was .040 and damaged.

went to the seller and told him that and got surprised...he told me he was to change it for a recently cut .010/.010 crank.

wait for a month with lot of problems and excuses from him untill FINALLY got in hands.

Since I can't trust anymore on the ppl, took my caliper to measure it right after he left... yes is true, unless I made a wrong measure ( I dont use calipers dairy and allmost forgot how to use it! )  it looks to be .010/.010 undercut... BUT IS A 440 CRANK, NOT A 383...

now, I don't know if I have a headache or a treasure. 440 cranks are hard to find around here and I allways have dreamed with the 451 build!!!

but on a counterpart, I already have all the parts to the 400 with 383 forged crank and KB240 pistons, just was waiting for the crank locally to complete the assembly

I don't want to try to find locally a 383 crank anymore, even less from this guy ( I have catched lots of lies from him ). SO I'M PLANING TO KEEP THIS CRANK whatever use it now or not.

two options for me:

get a 383 Used and standart Crank what I know it can be found on US$100 or so ( I know about one in fact ) where internal USA shipping to my forward courier in FL will be $60 and overseas shipping will be around $120 ( by sea, so one month to get it )... around $280-300 in total. Plus machine job involved if needing to be cut.

OR

get the 451 pistons TO 400 RODS because I already have them... being a budget project ( as usual on me ) would have to get affordable pistons, so... KB215s or KB251s are on mind ( toward to KB215s to keep a good street compression on iron heads ) $300-350 rate, plus a final shipping rate of $50-70 up to home... yeap I know, everyone will tell me on forged pistons, blah blah... THAT'S NOT AN OPTION, MY POCKET WON'T REACH THAT, and is an street use car, not race!... maybe will take to the track just once to know how much time gives on the 1/4 mile, but thats it!

So any choice, the money involved is around the same.

another issue comes to mind... is a 451 stroker REALLY streetable to still using stock A/C and barelly noticeable iddle on this setup I'm describing ? no more parts involved than the pistons and the ones I already have. I don't want a stroker to get headaches. I don't want a JUMPING ENGINE ON ENGINE BAY, just a noticeable and "funny" iddling being still enough to keep safe the AC.

Exhaust have been already upgraded from 2.25" to 2.5"  with SS flowmonster mufflers ( similar to magnaflow ones )

opinions opinions opinions, and need them ASAP...

[Brightyellow69rtse]

ive never head anything bad about the 451. i did alot of research a few years back when i was entertaining the idea with my 400. i decided to build the 440 that i bought for the car years ago but i someday would like to do a 451 with my 400

[1Bad70Charger]

451 all the way, when built right they ROCK and make great POWER and will remain 100% streetable!   

[Nacho-RT74]

somebody have heard anything bad about using KB215 pistons ?

I think making this, the MP 280/474 cam will be better suited.

I have the chance to get also a Eddy intake, streetmaster, to use instead the regular Performer.

Ron ? Bob ? need profesionals opinions TAKING IN MIND the limitations I'm posting, and the use ( definitelly not race )

BOB... if you can update the pics on the 451 PREP FOR HOMIES THREAD will be great and helpfull. Really needing this tech support

[Nacho-RT74]

BOB... if you can update the pics on the 451 PREP FOR HOMIES THREAD will be great and helpfull. Really needing this tech support

http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,22274.0.html

[Challenger340]

somebody have heard anything bad about using KB215 pistons ?

I think making this, the MP 280/474 cam will be better suited.

I have the chance to get also a Eddy intake, streetmaster, to use instead the regular Performer.

Ron ? Bob ? need profesionals opinions TAKING IN MIND the limitations I'm posting, and the use ( definitelly not race )

BOB... if you can update the pics on the 451 PREP FOR HOMIES THREAD will be great and helpfull. Really needing this tech support

You are in luck Nacho, must be fate or something weird ? Your timing is perfect.
Anyways,
we just prepped a 451 for a customer last week, First one in a long time because most want Bigger stuff, and yes, we did it the OLD WAY, by chamfering the 440 crank with an angle grinder to fit in the 400 Block as is.
You wany some Pics ?
I can take some tomorrow if you want ?
Bob out

[Nacho-RT74]

well, the ones you posted on the other thread were really good... dunno if you remember, so, something like those should be enough.

what do you think about the rest of my worries ? a REALLY good streetable setup, to run A/C safe, a soft iddle, mostly to keep a good and stable 800-900 RPMs rate. What do you think about KB215s ? ( they are the ones I HAVE to choose to keep a more street CR rate ), I have read the shorter rod makes a better bottom end or something like that, but a liitle bit more streess on cilinder walls due the ratio angle, etc...

forgott to say the rest of setup if needed... stock BB TQ carb and 3.55 SG diff. 255/60-15 tires

[Challenger340]

well, the ones you posted on the other thread were really good... dunno if you remember, so, something like those should be enough.

what do you think about the rest of my worries ? a REALLY good streetable setup, to run A/C safe, a soft iddle, mostly to keep a good and stable 800-900 RPMs rate. What do you think about KB215s ? ( they are the ones I HAVE to choose to keep a more street CR rate ), I have read the shorter rod makes a better bottom end or something like that, but a liitle bit more streess on cilinder walls due the ratio angle, etc...

forgott to say the rest of setup if needed... stock BB TQ carb and 3.55 SG diff. 255/60-15 tires

I'll take some new photos of the 451 we have on the go now this afternoon, and I will pm the Pics to you a little later, as a guide for you to fit your 440 Crank in your 400 block.
You will of course, need to have the 440 Crank mains turned down to 400 Size, (lower end of the spec provides better Oil clearance), then Balance the Assembly after fitting in the Block.
Taking into account your application requirements with the Iron Heads, about 9.5:1 C.R. would be max IMO, depending upon Fuel Octane available in your area ?
Both the KB215's and 251's will require Quench Dome "Milling", to keep you down in the above range with the 452 castings, More $$ ?
The shorter Rod combo will work just fine, don't sweat the Angle, just a little earlier, and peakier Torque curve.
The Lunati 60302 Cam works very well, again depending "actual" FINAL C.R. and fuel Octane available ? DO NOT run yourself in circles targeting perfect quench on this application.
Quench is a "helper", not the be all end all, CR and Flamefront propagation being more important,(even on a polluted charge), especially on BB Mopars with Valves on the backside, with 4.350 and larger Bores.
Stay Tuned,
Bob out.

[Nacho-RT74]

we have 91 and 95 unleaded.

I have metallic headgaskets and since I'm reaching 10-10.4 CR ( as KB215 specs with .030 overbore from KB website ) I just can keep unmilled heads, they are NOS... I could replace metallic with composite maybe ? anyway, with standart bore it should reach less CR than specs from KB website I think.

unmilled NOS heads and metallic headgaskets should be just around on quench area I think. Combustion chamber deep looks to be around .040, plus .020 of gasket. So, trying to get some better quench will require still cut the heads then will raise the CR, wouldn't ?

thats really a discussion... how to keep the balance between quench and CR ?

I got also the iron PRW adjustable rocker set, because I was to mill down around .050 from heads to reach more CR from KB240s, so an adjustable rocker set was to be a nice ad. Now is not REALLY necesary but still will use them, because these rockers are roller tip.

BY NOW I don't think will change the selected cam, its already in hands, however IF I NEED to change I was toward more to the Crower 271HDP or 282HDP ( toward to the last one ), but I'm trying, really trying, to not spend more... there is a nice a Mopar camshaft now on clearence crower website thought. Maybe something to check?

the crank cut and balance is already of course proyected.

I will be happier with earlier and peakier torque curve, thats great for a driver.

[Nacho-RT74]

forgot to keep one question on the air... is it really posible to get on these setup something like a "stockish" iddle ?. Its nice to get some "jumpy" engine, but being still soft and even hard to notice

[firefighter3931]

The Crower HDP282 or Lunati 303 or Engle K56 would be excellent choices with a mild 451.  

Here's a great deal on a K56 : http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,80756.0.html

Build the 451  



Ron

[Challenger340]

Here you go Nacho.

Like I said, your timing is uncanny, as we just happen to have a "Stock crank" 451 on the go now. Don't do many of these anymore, everybody wants bigger Strokers.
Normally we close for July & August, gone FITHIN !
But alas,
we're still plunkin away on some late builds & Sprint Car junk.

Anyways,
your in luck as it's still around waiting to get on the Mill to have the Lifters Bushed for the Hydraulic Roller Cam.

Hope these are OK, if not I'll have to try and find the old Photos.

[Nacho-RT74]

thanks for the pics Bob... if I need something else will let you know. I don't think will procceeed with polish. I don't have the time, the tools or the man to make it. So I have to make it myself with the small amount of tools I have and the small time I'm having.

Can I get a full view but closerof the complete crank ?. The first one is some away from the main frame on pic

I hope machine shop will be able to make what is needed and I want. Sometimes is hard to find somebody what take cares about THE CUSTOMERS want, acclaiming they know what to do, taking by a side the customers wishes or request

So, more less in conclusion about the crank:

-Cut off around .020 of counterweights all around... thats a no brained and magic measure, right ? .020, nothing more to measure to be sure about that.
-Make a 45º cut on counterweights, on sides where crank meets with block mainwebs.
-Then Cut mains to 400 diameter. Being they are 010, will end with standart measure on mains and 010 on rods.
-with pistons in hands ( KB215s are just right for my purpouse, right ?), to get the balance job.

[Nacho-RT74]

I started a thread talking about the same in moparts, and is amazing how opinions are diff, like asses in the world, LOL.

There they get focused on CR and quench with gas octanes ( beside the Highjacks LOL )

[Challenger340]

thanks for the pics Bob... if I need something else will let you know. I don't think will procceeed with polish. I don't have the time, the tools or the man to make it. So I have to make it myself with the small amount of tools I have and the small time I'm having.

Can I get a full view but closerof the complete crank ?. The first one is some away from the main frame on pic
I'll get one this afternoon for you.

I hope machine shop will be able to make what is needed and I want. Sometimes is hard to find somebody what take cares about THE CUSTOMERS want, acclaiming they know what to do, taking by a side the customers wishes or request

So, more less in conclusion about the crank:

-Cut off around .020 of counterweights all around... thats a no brained and magic measure, right ? .020, nothing more to measure to be sure about that.
NO, actually the 440 outer counterweight dimension will fit just fine without even a polish. The only place it interferes is on the side of the counterweight against the ridge at the bottom of the main web, so cut the 45* angles and radius the ridge in the Block

-Make a 45º cut on counterweights, on sides where crank meets with block mainwebs. CORRECT

-Then Cut mains to 400 diameter. Being they are 010, will end with standart measure on mains and 010 on rods. CORRECT

-with pistons in hands ( KB215s are just right for my purpouse, right ?), to get the balance job.
I think the 215's may be a little too high Compression without some actual Head CCíng and potential quench dome milling ? But I am NOT sure ?
Balancing after all done is a must.

[Nacho-RT74]

Ok, so, I DON'T NEED to cut the counterweights diameter and just take care bout the angle grind ?... why did everybody makes that ? I have read opinions requiring a diameter cut from 0.0125 0.020. I saw you made some diameter polish or cut too.

Heads are NOS. Will finish the porting job, then install the 2.14/1.81 and will CCing. Being NOS I expect 90-92cc.

I still don't understand hot to keep the balance between CR and quench. Anything I think to get some of the quench accepted values ( 040-050 right ?, will affects proportionally the CR, mostly being increased.

I know you told me not to get a headache bout the quench, and just talking about a helper point of view, specially to detonation, but still wondering about this.

beside this, I CAN NOT to find any piston smaller than KB215 on CR , even less on stock 400 rod. KB website doesn't say anything bout block to deck clearence, but I think it must be around 0 deck or so...

[Nacho-RT74]

found something:

http://www.beckracing.com/page41.htm

and it says

2)Quench dome height 0.95".
3)For closed chamber cylinder heads quench dome must be machined off.
4) Crankshaft counterweights have to be machined for block clearance. Rebalancing is required.

( also says 0.020 down the block )

[Nacho-RT74]

would be nice to try a seller with these out from the shelf, in stock... and who has it, it is more expensive than Summit.

Summit website states around a couple of weeks to wait to be delivered

PS: how much power I could spec from this basic stroker build ? ( just aprox )

[Nacho-RT74]

BTW... how to make a precise 45º cut with an angle grinder ?

[Nacho-RT74]

The Crower HDP282 or Lunati 303 or Engle K56 would be excellent choices with a mild 451. 

Here's a great deal on a K56 : http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,80756.0.html

Build the 451 



Ron

isn't the K56 something like a "smaller" cam side by side with the other two ? wouldn't a K56/K58 better comparision with the other two?

Oh, BTW, I know you and somebody else posted about whats the max lift accepted by the stock head, but I can't recall... whats the max lift without need to machine the heads on this area  ?

forgott to add... will be using Huges 1106 springs what I got used ( 4K miles on them as seller told me ) on Carlisle 2008

[Nacho-RT74]

forgot to ask:

Both the KB215's and 251's will require Quench Dome "Milling", to keep you down in the above range with the 452 castings, More $$ ?

Why? If I mill down the dome on this will be getting lower CR, and STILL not quench due the GIANT combustion chamber on open mopar chambers! a milled dome on these will make allmost a KB240 piston but with 3.75 stroke

If I have top cut 215s, then I should get 251s... they are around $80 cheaper.

Quench is a "helper", not the be all end all, CR and Flamefront propagation being more important,(even on a polluted charge), especially on BB Mopars with Valves on the backside, with 4.350 and larger Bores.
Stay Tuned,
Bob out.

well definitelly I can't take care of quench... as I have posted I still can't imagine how to get quench if pistons aren't dished to keep compression on street car numbers ( 9.5 to 10.5 )

[heyoldguy]

You can safely go .530" lift with the stock valve guide, seal and retainer.

If your 452 heads have not been milled in the past, the quench depth of the combustion chamber should be approximately .100".

If your block is standard 9.98" tall your deck height would be about .025" in the hole with the KB pistons.

I think quench is a non-issue in your application.  With a 90cc combustion chamber, I would mill the quench dome completely off, use the .020" gasket for 9.65:1 compression or the .040" gasket for 9.25:1 compression.

[Nacho-RT74]

then I can't get the reason to build a step dome piston if any opinion I have read is about cut the step.

Heads are NOS

Block has been decked when sleeves were installed so dunno exactly the deck clearence yet. I expect on 015 rate

beckracing website states cut off the step on closed chambers, thats all. Doesn't tak about  mods on 215s with open, like it says on 251s frame

you see ? lot of contradictions about all around.

Then a 451 IS NOT a "cheap" stroke with stock parts and just aftermarket pistons involved, not on the cheap thought, as has been allways advertised from the first time I read about.

Of course I'm forgetting about quench and will play with timming, I have a MP dist and bought the timming curve adjust kit ( so, expect my next questions about LOL when I build the engine and get the definitive numbers ), but searching the more info available about.


( I have emailed to KB techs too )

At the end the build is no more than an oversized 440 on a 400 block with just a little bit more compression ( half of point maybe ? ) and it looks they never took care about quench

[Challenger340]

The reason for the step head domes, is to allow the builder to "tailor" the quench and CR, through machining of the Dome.
Obviously,
the Step Head can be run out of the box "as is",
however,
the CR would be too high for most pump fuel applications, so the cost for milling the step head on pump fuels must be factored in with the KB 215 price ?

"Then a 451 IS NOT a "cheap" stroke with stock parts and just aftermarket pistons involved, not on the cheap thought, as has been allways advertised from the first time I read about."

There is no such thing anymore in ANY stroker combination, different from even a few years ago, because of the advent of CHEAP CHINESE strokers kits from the likes of 440 source junk etc., who have forced other manufacturers to discontinue parts for the "do it yourself" crowd to stay afloat.
Even 2 years ago, I could still buy SRP Pistons for a 451 compatible with the stock ly Rods 1.094" Pins. Now they are GONE !
Even KB used to have a Flat Top Piston for your stock 6.358 Rods and 1.094"Pins a few years ago. Now, no more !

Everybody wants CHEAP !
Keep buying that CHINESE GARBAGE !
Might as well just start going out and shooting your Neighbors and friends Jobs along the way as well ? Eventually it costs everyone more, even YOU !



IMO,
you have "missed the boat" Nacho, should have done this even 2 years ago with the stock Rods ?
Best option nowadays,
is to go buy some 6.76 Rods with .990 Pins and ICON 823 Forged Pistons, shoot for 10.1 with the 95 Octane and call it a day.(Chinese Of course)

I'm with "Oldguy", FORGET about the quench, not a big deal on this application if you have 95 Octane fuel.

[Nacho-RT74]

well on those years I didn't have the crank LOL

actually the cheap therm I meant to use not spending lot of money . For example, spent $600 on pistons where $300-400 are around

so out of the box, is simply better keep the 215s, and as you stated, forget about quench ( if you read all the opinions I have to read around that on moparts is something to become crazy about LOL ). However somebody there posted the 451 on 3.75 crank is not more than an overbored 440... and being logical, is totally true! thats a valid reason why forget about quench, wasn't considerated back in the years, I can forget about that now with the numbers I'm getting

not really missed the boat, its simply thinking on every detail and issue that I can be confronting on the assembly.

thanks for the slap Bob, LOL

Now, about the angle cut on counterweights... how to make it with an angle grinder ? I can't imagine how to make it without a precision tool like a Lathe.

[Nacho-RT74]

Bob, taking a side the machine cost involved... what about 251 pistons, cut the piston quench pad to the needed height and if compression rate is too high, make a D dish cut on the opposite side of the quench pad to reduce CR ?

[Nacho-RT74]

I requested my mechanic masure the depth of the flat portion of head's combustion chamber and he got average 2.4 milimeters, that's 0.094". If we think quench dome pad is 0.095" on, KB215s, they are designed to be around 0.020" down the hole and I use 0.020 gasket, I should get 0.040" gap ( mils less or more ) I should get a perfect quench with them out of the box!

[Nacho-RT74]

HOW HARD IS TRY TO FIND A MACHINE SHOP TO MAKE WHAT I WANT!!! I'm still fighting againts that...

for a while decided to get the Crower 282HDP ( more bucks to spend because an accident  I didn't want thaaat )... found my MP280/.474 camshaft got a HEAVY RUST DAMAGE on the very front journal because the box got wet for long time before I noticed it... after wirebrush it, rust spots are deep into the journal... dunno If I can save it on a machine shop flling them and regrounding or maybe just polish the journal to save the sharped edges caused by the rust and don't pay attention to the small holes ( will try to get pics today ). I really want to save it.

now I have a Resto HP Cam what I got NOS on the cheap locally on the old fashion brown box, the MP 280/.474 and now the 282HDP Crower. Will use one, rest will be sold ( I need to get back some money after finish this )

whatever, I also got from Crower ( bought directly from manufacturer, so I hope shipping will be inmediatly ) a ZDD additive. Crower was offering free shipping on orders bigger than $150, cam is $148, shipping was to be $17, so added the additive price $11, to the camshaft order and won't be paying shippping ( "saved" around $7 )


Also found on crank after a clean job ( the journals were covered with somekind of product, resin, or something like that used to protect ) the journals with some darker areas like someday in the past got some rust on them. I don't care about mains since will be cut to 400 size but rods WON'T be touch and kept on .010... maybe a light polish job will get them better ? dunno. Journals feels totally smooth and soft to the touch though

[Nacho-RT74]

what a stupidity! standart 400 bore with 440 crank is a 444 not a 451 LOL... 451 is a 400+.030/.035 over size with 440 crank LOL... still nice but stupid! I'm just building basically 440+.020 on a shorter block! BUT on a real 10:1 CR ( some less or more depending on gasket )

can you believe that sometimes we can get some obsesed with some build that never analizes the details and numbers of the build LOL!

so it has been called 450 or 451 JUST because everybody makes the oversize bore and not just the crank job

whatever, still working on it!!! will be fun to have a 440 on a 400 factory look

[Nacho-RT74]

tired of fight with Machine shops, decided to get this tool:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=360378769475&ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT


Then get the honing tool ( what is available locally, not the reamer though )




and making a light hone job basically just to make smoother the reamer work and a little bit on bottom to save a little bit the SMALL tappered shape what obvioully is pressent because the ridge.

FSM manual says needing to bore just if tappers get to 0.010 and out of round is 0.005... none of this numbers has been reached, and just the 0.002 over bore is there as one machine shop told me ( so a 0.001 ridge on cilinder )

installed a standard KB240 on cilinder and still fits tight! with just a small clearence on top of cilinder.

ring gets 0.028-9 gap around the middle or 2/3 of cilinder I guess a little bit more on top and a little bit less on bottom, ... what as KB specs looks to be good enough.

( well, I'll keep talking with myself LOL )

[Nacho-RT74]

Here you go Nacho.

Like I said, your timing is uncanny, as we just happen to have a "Stock crank" 451 on the go now. Don't do many of these anymore, everybody wants bigger Strokers.
Normally we close for July & August, gone FITHIN !
But alas,
we're still plunkin away on some late builds & Sprint Car junk.

Anyways,
your in luck as it's still around waiting to get on the Mill to have the Lifters Bushed for the Hydraulic Roller Cam.

Hope these are OK, if not I'll have to try and find the old Photos.

were did the pics go ?