Re-body or not.....opinions?

[69bronzeT5]

Apparentley a LEGIT before and after. I can't help but think rebody though....





BEFORE:
http://mapleleafmopars.homestead.com/MofMnov2006.html

AFTER:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/1970-Hemi-GTX-4-speed-RS23R0A172870-/190544732757?pt=US_Cars_Trucks&hash=item2c5d59e255

[Finn]

Wow...even I wouldn't tell someone that's fixable.

I'm thinking re-body.

[moparstuart]

 sure looks like a rebody if not they did a fantastic job

[daveco]

ahhh, that sort of body damage will usually just buff right out...

[Tilar]

I can't help but think rebody though....

Cody, I can't help but think you are right. 

[tan top]

I can't help but think rebody though....

Cody, I can't help but think you are right. 

yeah  , me too !!  or prolly more like another body with a few bits welded on from the original rotted wreck 

[miller]

How much of the original car needs to be there before you would consider it a re-body? For instance, my front end if off a 68 but my car is still considered a 69. Similarly, if someone switched the rear valance to a 68 the car would still be a 69. If someone swapped the front and the rear and the interior to make it a 68 clone, it would still be a 69. So If we went as far to say, they swapped everything but the original firewall with the original vin.... would it still be the original car?

[charge69]

I don't know how much of the car is there but I would not be surprised if the car is my definition of a rebody, that is switching  the fender tag, original numbers on various body panels and dash (with original matching vin) to a different donor car. YMMV

[miller]

Kind of on the same lines, would you consider this Production Subaru STI the same car as the race car that came out of the shop?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8irtop-4dbo

Same this the Audi A5 Dragster.

http://jalopnik.com/5809868/watch-an-audi-a5-transformed-into-a-drag-car/gallery/

[Cooter]

It all hinges on what someone considers a "Re-body"...

If an original car has Everything but the VIN tag and a cluster replaced with Brand new replacement panels, is it still the original car? Or Re-body?


Just because someone repaired the original with brand new metal, and someone else just found a complete car and swapped in all the drivetrain parts, is one a rebody and the other not?

[Ghoste]

So some of you think the car in the first pic only had a few panels replaced to get it to the condition in the 2nd?

[The70RT]

Rear section looks gone, If this was how it looked when they stared the new car is missing the rear vin #

[gtx6970]

different people define re-body differently.

I wouldn't pass judgement based on pictures found on the net in most cases.




BUT, based on what I know and see, it's rebody, they just did it the hard way

[69 OUR/TEA]

I gotta say it like this,I still don't like this car,no matter how nice it is right now,it still was "THAT" before.To me,I just feel alittle better inside knowing my car might have just had a few patches or panel replacement,not a structure  basketcase like that.

[vancamp]

i would say it is a definite re body even the firewall on the passenger side is gone someone swapped numbers to a different body.

[Rolling_Thunder]

honestly - it is so hard to say now-a-days with all the reproduction parts...       look at houses...    tear down and build an entire house leaving only one single load bearing wall...   you simple "remodeled"  = you didn't build a new house...           

I agree if they simply moved the VIN and fender tag over that's wrong...    but I've seen cars get new floors, exterior panels, firewall, inner fenders, frame rails, and every other thing...     so where does one draw the line ?

[Mike DC]

  
I literally don't see anything usable on that red GTX's unibody except maybe the right side doorjamb.  

The roof structure, the front cowl, the firewall, the A-pillars, the entire undercarriage from the firewall back . . . it's ALL unusable.  There's not enough inner structure left to hang the AMD sheetmetal onto.  
 


Bottom line, the original car is gone.  Even if it's not technically a rebody then I still wouldn't wanna buy it just for structural reasons. 

[The70RT]

Notice on the resto pics that they have the structural part mostly done and you don't see the beginning. Obviously there was nothing to start with.

[bill440rt]

Fender tag pic sure looks like a repop to me...  just sayin'. 

[Magnumcharger]

As this car was restored by Alan Gallant, who employs an awesome metal worker at Watertown Collision (also responsible for the "Barrell-Cuda" of note), I'm really not surprised to see that this car was resurrected.

http://www.alangallantautomotiverestoration.com/DES-S-GTX.html

For anybody who has done restorative surgery on an old Mopar, I'm sure you're well aware that these cars were never designed or built to last for any length of time.
Other than a very few well sheltered examples, most of our beloved Mopar muscle machines are rebuilt to varying degrees.
The simple fact is - they all will eventually succumb to time and the environments.

If you've followed the thread on the XP Hemi Charger, I'm sure the drill looks very similar.
Also, this month's Mopar action has a great article on the purple 1971 Hemi Cuda convertible restoration (Harold Sullivan) that follows a very similar story line.

As far as restoration goes, we could all stand on our soapboxes and shout "FOUL". But you must realize these are massed produced items, made by the thousands, and there is very little that actually differentiates one from another.

So, what's better?
Destroying the heritage of the vehicle so that others will increase in value? Or preserving the heritage by restoring even those cars that appear beyond hope?

If you hadn't seen any of the history of this car, I highly doubt that most of you on this site could tell that the end product was anything other than what it is now.
My 

[Old Moparz]

If a tree falls in the forest & there is nobody there to hear it, does it still make a sound?  

If a rotbox hemi & a nice 318 car are in a garage together & the hemi emerges a show car while the 318 disappears & nobody was there to see the restoration, were the VIN tags swapped?  

That car looks great, but I would never consider restoring something that far gone. I'm almost glad I don't have the money for a nice Hemi car, & have to worry about whether it's legit.  

[tan top]

http://www.alangallantautomotiverestoration.com/DES-S-GTX.html

they do some awesome work  by the looks of it  

wonder if all 70 B-Body floors are the same  as charger !!  i'm saying this because i thought read somewhere ! might of even been on here !!  the 70s  had an extra hole in the floor each side ! that would of been under the seat front seat / buckets , although if changed whole floor with a repoped part ??   but looks like an OEM floor to me 

[moparstuart]

Notice on the resto pics that they have the structural part mostly done and you don't see the beginning. Obviously there was nothing to start with.

  thats the key none of the important early restoration photos are there so you have to conclude its a re-body .   

[Chris G.]

When you cut out VIN #'s from a trunk rail support and rad rail support, and add them to whatever, you are doing it for a reason. 

[Drache]

http://www.alangallantautomotiverestoration.com/DES-S-GTX.html

Looking at that page though THIS stands out to me:

"It came to me with the metal work complete"

So it sounds like when Alan got the GTX to restore it, all the metal work was already done.

[Mike DC]

              
I'll say it again, the original car is gone.  

Either it's the same unibody and it's got 200 extra pounds of welding patchwork in it, or it's a rebody.  Either way I wouldn't want to pay up for it when there are other GTXs with clear histories for sale. 

[RallyeMike]

Enough has been replaced to probably define it as re-bodied, but who cares really about the term? They appear to be honest in the description, and that's all that matters. They essentially built the car around the engine compartment. the doors, and a few pieces here and there. Quite a job. Not much original metal left:

Doors (retaining the original door VIN sticker was important to me)

Rad support

Inner fenders

Firewall

Partial cowl

Foot-well kick-ups to firewall

Rear underseat area

Driver side rocker

Door jambs

Rally dash

Trans tunnel

Body framing for window mechanism mounting

Top of passenger quarter and trunk gutter (with factory VIN stamp)

[Magnumcharger]

This Camaro SS 396 was a running/driving car, and most people would have done a quick patch job on it.
However, the owner would have none of that...and wanted an essentually new Camaro.

This was the result.

Is it still the same car?

[Magnumcharger]

More pics...

[Magnumcharger]

Last batch..

[gtx6970]

Enough has been replaced to probably define it as re-bodied, but who cares really about the term? They appear to be honest in the description, and that's all that matters. They essentially built the car around the engine compartment. the doors, and a few pieces here and there. Quite a job. Not much original metal left.

I agree,  I applaude the owner who took it on. But it's no secret how it was rebuilt so it will have a tainted future ahead of it .

With the amount of metal replaced , in most buyers eyes it's a rebody in even the simplest of terms.But like I said earlier, they just did it the hard way.

I like the car and would love to have it as my own. for a price.  Problem is,and the way I see it -  it's past is going to determine  it's present / future value.
And while we're on the subject. I wonder what percentage this car is worth compared to say a similarly optioned car, only with it's original metal intact.

[The70RT]

Yes the Camaro is a 10th of the original. Is it the same car....no, how could it be? Should it be worth as much as an original car? Most of us would say NO, just like the GTX. Is it better shape than most? yes but it isn't the same car. This tread is going nowhere fast....like all the other rebody threads. Bottom line is if you buy it and are happy then your in your own little world (you and the buyer and anyone else that thinks a rebody is the same car world)and most of us will just laugh at you when you state is the original or a real one.

[Magnumcharger]

When I think "rebodied"  this is what comes to mind:

[F8-4life]

Some food for thought: In another 50 or so years when the GTX supply is less and these cars are even more rare and obscure, would this car be less of a re-body and more of a "saved" GTX Hemi 4 speed? Future generations are just gonna be glad a car like this still exists. In the long run this is one rare baddass plymouth. I'm glad it's not rotting anymore.

[Magnumcharger]

Is this a rebody? Which is worth more, the original, or the restored version?
Is something valuable only because it's in the public's vernacular?

What establishes value? What establishes originality? Who determines that?

Would you not agree that a restoration of a car diminishes it's originality?

A car ceases to be original immediately after it's built does it not? As soon as the tires touch the ground.
Not to mention after it's first tuneup. There goes the original plugs, air filter, wiper blades and within a short time, the tires and exhaust.
If it gets into an accident, maybe a fender or door or bumper and grille gets replaced. It's no longer original anymore...but by golly, it's still a Hemi Daytona.

[TiMopar]

IMO, if the 'new' Dodge Challenger is considered to be a 'real' Dodge Challenger, then that is a GTX.

[Aero426]

Some food for thought: In another 50 or so years when the GTX supply is less and these cars are even more rare and obscure, would this car be less of a re-body and more of a "saved" GTX Hemi 4 speed? Future generations are just gonna be glad a car like this still exists. In the long run this is one rare baddass plymouth. I'm glad it's not rotting anymore.

It will always be a reconstructed car. 
It will always have a story attached to it. 
It will be always be worth less than a car with known history that survived without any drama. 

[Aero426]

Is this a rebody? Which is worth more, the original, or the restored version?
Is something valuable only because it's in the public's vernacular?

What establishes value? What establishes originality? Who determines that?

Would you not agree that a restoration of a car diminishes it's originality?

A car ceases to be original immediately after it's built does it not? As soon as the tires touch the ground.
Not to mention after it's first tuneup. There goes the original plugs, air filter, wiper blades and within a short time, the tires and exhaust.
If it gets into an accident, maybe a fender or door or bumper and grille gets replaced. It's no longer original anymore...but by golly, it's still a Hemi Daytona.

In the case of the Hemi Daytona, it was an extraordinary car even when new.   Certainly it warrants restoration, or whatever hocus pocus happened to it.      If you want to talk "originality", I don't think you can compare the replacement of wear items to the restoration of a stripped and crumpled shell.    That restoration began with a steaming pile, compared to a running driving car in better condition.   The end result is the same, but for the same price, a future buyer would likely want the Hemi Daytona that did not suffer the trauma of a rollover.      

I read a recent auction review on a racing Bugatti.    The particular car was well known,  had been raced often in recent years, and sold for about $700,000, the low end of the scale for that model.     The high end would be over $3,000,000.      Both the low and high end cars look the same.   By golly, both cars are "real" Bugattis.    But the car for $700,000 was reconstructed in modern times using a new frame, and some original mechanical components.    But everyone out there knew what it was and it was priced appropriately.    Nobody got hurt.  

As time goes on, collectors of high end cars are going to recognize even more, things like continous ownership history,  original componentry documented back to assembly line, and how much of the actual body and frame exists from back in the early days.     The cream will always rise to the top.    

On Saturday, I saw an unrestored 3700 mile Hemi Cuda at Mike Ross' place.    That car will always be worth more than the most perfectly restored car, even if the restored car was 100 percent correct.     There is room in the hobby for everything:  survivor,  restored,  reconstructed, clone.     Just don't expect them all to be worth the same.  

[XS29LA47V21]

   aero426 has a great point ... "There is room in the hobby for everything:  survivor,  restored,  reconstructed, clone.     Just don't expect them all to be worth the same. "  It is a hobby after all, so we tend to migrate to the cars we like individually for the important qualities they offer for different reasons.  I dig and continue to be enamored with rare or not so rare survivors, even if a little rough. 

[Wicked72]

I thought a car zombie was coming after me and ran to the bathroom! 

[six-tee-nine]

Well its probably a rebody but i thinkt it deserves a second approach.

Pesonally I think if that person bought the wreck, then bought a second low budget car to get going, then doing  full restoration come on what is essentially wrong with that?
I understand the opinions here because in most cases cars are rebodyd to scam people. but if the owner has no intention of scamming people is he harming others by saving a nice rare car?

I'd say nice car!

[daveco]

The dilemma is not a new one:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ship_of_Theseus

[Aero426]

I understand the opinions here because in most cases cars are rebodyd to scam people. but if the owner has no intention of scamming people is he harming others by saving a nice rare car?

Typically, the slippery slope seems to occur two or three owners down the line when history starts to be revised.   

[Khyron]

If a tree falls in the forest & there is nobody there to hear it, does it still make a sound?   

If a rotbox hemi & a nice 318 car are in a garage together & the hemi emerges a show car while the 318 disappears & nobody was there to see the restoration, were the VIN tags swapped?   

Im going to admit, I did actually laugh out loud at that one heheheh