DAYTONA HOODS ?

[chargervert]

I have to wonder if the non ribbed hoods ,were found to have a weakness,perhaps from crash tests ect...  those Daytona peices were preproduction 70 Charger peices,and maybe the problem was discovered before the Daytona run was completed. That would explain why the earliest Daytonas had the smooth hoods,and some of the later cars had the ribbed hood. I believe that at that time,they had decided that those hoods were going to be the hood for the 70 Charger,and maybe they reworked the underside panel for the 70 production run,during the Daytona run!

[hotrod98]

And it's also possible that some of the early daytona hoods were used on production '70's if the assembly line ran short of if someone just decided to liquidate excess stock. It's possible that no one even thought about the design change.
I manage a GM dealership body shop and we see all kinds of strange things when it comes to parts. We think that a lot of the parts that didn't fit right on the assembly line are boxed up and sent out as replacement parts through parts distribution. We've had unopened boxed parts that show signs of having been at least partially installed.
You just never know what all happened back then...anything's possible.

[hemigeno]

I have to wonder if the non ribbed hoods ,were found to have a weakness,perhaps from crash tests ect... those Daytona peices were preproduction 70 Charger peices,and maybe the problem was discovered before the Daytona run was completed. That would explain why the earliest Daytonas had the smooth hoods,and some of the later cars had the ribbed hood. I believe that at that time,they had decided that those hoods were going to be the hood for the 70 Charger,and maybe they reworked the underside panel for the 70 production run,during the Daytona run!

Pete that's what I've always thought too, and I've even posted essentially that same opinion elsewhere.  We're left to just guessing though.

Looking at this particular subject, a car's build date at Hamtramck isn't as important as when the car went through Creative Industries.  We've assumed that the ship date out of Creative Ind. is some indication of when/what order the cars were converted, but that's more than likely not an absolute order either.  If we knew which Daytonas had smooth vs. crash-rib configurations, and could compare that to the actual order/sequence they went through at Creative, AND knew which regular (non-Daytona) Chargers had smooth vs. crash-rib configurations to see if those were early-built cars, we MIGHT be able to draw some conclusions.  

A whole lot of details needed to figure this pattern out (if there even IS a pattern) are left unknown, which basically forces us to guess.  Mike pointed out that a Los Angeles-based stamping company is the source of what we have assumed is the early-style non-ribbed hood.  What we don't know is if the LA plant changed their stampings to make hoods with ribs later on, or did all of the LA-stamped hoods have no ribs?

'69 hoods have some sort of similar crash ribs on them too (or at least my January-built car does), so the testing that indicated a weakness/defect/safety issue might have been extrapolated from an earlier year.  It may have taken one of the pocket-protector-and-slide-rule engineers a few weeks/months of production at Creative Ind. (and/or the St. Louis assembly plant??) to realize that the ribs weren't on Daytona (and early '70 cars??) hoods, but again, that's a total guess.

I had heard that the design of the '70 Charger front clip was already established before the Daytona went into production.  Under that scenario, the Daytona nose was designed around the production pieces, not the other way around.  I don't have any documentation on that, but there was a definite trend with Chrysler going to loop bumpers on several car lines around that time.

Personally, I agree with you in thinking that the Daytona parts are essentially pre-production pieces, the design of which was perhaps modified during the run as you indicated.  That's up for debate, and there are reasons why that might not be true.  

Mike is right (and I knew this already) that no one cared too much about quality or standardization.  I was being sarcastic when I lamented about Chrysler's lack of concern for scrutiny of their manufacturing processes 37 years later.  These cars were viewed as commodities, to be churned out and shipped as fast as possible.  ALL of the guys I've talked with that worked in the assembly plants back then will quickly relay that mindset...  "Ship It" was a common refrain, along with "the Dealer will fix that"...  

[hemigeno]

And it's also possible that some of the early daytona hoods were used on production '70's if the assembly line ran short of if someone just decided to liquidate excess stock. It's possible that no one even thought about the design change.

That would make perfect sense, if all (or almost all) Daytona's had smooth hoods, and only early '70 Chargers were found with smooth hoods.  Unfortunately, it seems like some Daytona's had ribbed hood's (we don't know if a late conversion date played a role) and some '70 Chargers had smooth hoods (again, we don't know if an early build date played a role).  They apparently mixed some of both styles in the respective production lines, which makes your last comment apropos:

You just never know what all happened back then...anything's possible.

Boy, that's the truth...

[nascarxx29]

Just curious Hemi Geno the daytona that guy found in St Louis.The red one with 68 markers in the nose .Did you get any underhood pictures from it .Did he ever sell it

[hemigeno]

No, I didn't take any pictures, but it was in sad shape.  My "favorite" modification was the fender scoops being turned around backwards...

I talked with the owner's dad about 1-1/2 months ago at a local restaurant, and they still had it.  More than likely, they'll end up restoring it themselves.  They've done cars as tough as that one is, and it would make even hlpag think twice...  What I'm trying to say, is that they've got some serious talent in fixing rustbuckets up, and they will need all of their talent to fix it.

The hood was a smooth hood, incidentally (I did look).  It's a 5/16 Build, 8/24 Ship Date, #65 on the list.

[chargervert]

Hey Geno,I looked that Daytona over,at the Nats. I have fixed some rusty New England Chargers,over the years,but that one is a little scary! It's not that it is not restorable,but not only do you have to deal with the rust issues,but you also have to undo the major hack job,that was done to the car! I think the more that you get into it,the more hacked things you would find! The only thing scarier than the thought of restoring that car,was the six figure asking price! That scared the hell out of me!

[nascarxx29]

Thanks Hemi Geno.I did find the ad but it didnt show much detail.But I did notice it was the only one sold from King Dodge.And your #65 confirms it   .

**Inactive Link Removed**

[hemigeno]

Pete, you may still have only seen the tip of the iceberg even (sounds like you looked it over, but it was hard to see everything there in a Swap Meet space).  I went to Clayton's shop and spent about 3 hours crawling all over and under it 2 weeks after he got it, even had it on a lift.  And you ain't kidding about the hack job modifications... I still haven't figured out what all of the condensing units/coolers are for which you referred to.  There was one for the A/C, one for the auto trans, and a mystery third one.  That poor nose was absolutely butchered to allow enough airflow to do the combined cooling systems any good at all, and the work done on the firewall/floorboard replacement would be grounds for a malpractice suit against even a dis-reputable body man.

As far as the asking price, I told him he was way over (double) what he should feel happy with getting for the car.  Clayton readily admitted he was asking a whole lot, but his rationale was he wanted to see if someone wanted the car worse than he wanted to keep it.  I think he would have been honestly surprised if someone bought it at that price.  I told him over and over that you don't get many chances to be the second owner of a Daytona and he oughta keep it.  Maybe that's why he set the price so high - so no one WOULD buy it and he'd be "forced" to restore it himself...

It'll be a sweet car when it's brought out of the '70s custom time warp it's in.  Sure is a neat story about how he got it though!

[hemigeno]

Dave, looks like the asking price has come down.  I didn't even think it was still listed - thanks for the link.  It's still not a bargain by any means, considering the volume of the sheet metal that has been converted to rust particles.  Clayton reminds me when I mention his asking prices that at least his car runs   

It was definitely the only one sold from King Dodge.  The original owner had a '68 Charger R/T, which explains why you see '68 marker lights on the car now - he liked them better than the reflectors.  He was driving by King Dodge, saw the Daytona inside and went in to talk with a salesman about trading in his '68 on the Daytona.  There was apparently another gentleman in the dealership at the same time trying to buy the car, and they got into an altercation right there in the showroom.  Had to be separated...  I saw some dealership paperwork on this car, and IIRC the initial selling price (before trade-in) was in excess of $5,000 - well over the MSRP.  It sold in early September of 1969 (like Sept 8th or 9th), which means that particular car didn't sit around long at all.

[nascarxx29]

My paperwork shows my car $5155.75 in 4-25-70

[69_500]

So here is the question, for $89K now, it is in the same ball park range as the Yellow Daytona that sold for $82K that was a project car as well. Does he really want to sell the car, or keep the car?

[hemigeno]

I don't remember - did the yellow car actually sell for $82k?  While I haven't seen that car up close, from what I saw in the ebay ad it is an absolute gem of a car compared to the V2 car my friend has.  IIRC both cars had all their Daytona parts, but I am not exaggerating when I say that absolutely ever body panel on the V2 car has serious rust issues.  What sheetmetal has already been replaced may as well not have been, since it was so poorly done.  And like Pete said, there was a major hatchet job done to several areas of the car that will have to be fixed as well.

I think both cars had all their Daytona-specific parts, but the yellow car was much less of a restoration project and therefore a much better "bargain" (strange to say that at these dollar amounts).

I had heard from his dad that he was going to keep and restore the car, so I was a little surprised to see the price dropped in the link Dave posted.  Both Clayton and his dad do go through a lot of cars though, and I've really tried to impress on him how rare it is for a real Daytona to pop up for sale at the price they had to pay (I won't ruin anyone's day by posting that amount).  If the price keeps lowering, I'll have to go have another pep talk with him...

[69_500]

Don't have a pep talk with him until the price of it, gets down to realistic.I mean needing a lot or not, its still a Daytona, and I"d still be happy to own it.

[hemigeno]

Danny, if I thought you were going to make a run at the car, I'd do what I could to help you get it.  If he keeps inching down on the price though, someone will take a flyer on it before it gets to a "realistic" price.

[69_500]

I'm in no way, shape, or form in any kind of a financial situation to make a play on that car now. I'd love to own a Daytona, and you know that I would take one in any shape or form. Doesn't matter to me how crappy or rusted they are, I would take one. A Daytona is a Daytona. You don't get those shots everyday. But at this point in time, it is just a dream, I have to find a job first. One that won't fold up their company doors on me as fast as the last place.

[Ghoste]

Here are a couple of shots of that car in the swap meet at the Nats last summer.



And the interior.

[chargervert]

Geno,when I was in high school,and we got our year books,there was a girl,in the book,that all the guys said,we have been here for four years,and we haven't seen that beautiful girl in that photo,that she had done for the year book! when we found out who the girl was,we said that cannot be her! She went to one of those glammor shot studios,and they worked some kind of miricles with her for the photos! Thats what those pictures,that you posted did for that car! That is a car that you have to see that car in person,to really evaluate its condition! I wouldn't want to buy that one off E bay,just by looking at the photos! It would be quite a shock,when that one showed up at the door! It's like you said,the car in not unfixable,but you would need to diesect a complete rust free Charger,to save it! Was it numbers matching? It does have all of the Daytona specific peices,which is a big plus for the car,but with the price in the eighties, its still quite a stretch! I think its like you said,he really wants to keep the car! If he bought it right,then he will have the room,moneywise, to give the car a proper resto,and maybe still come out of it even,from an investment stand point! As far as someone else buying the car,and doing the same,even if they bought it in the sixties,I don't think at this point they could break even! If the market keeps going the way it is,then maybe I could be wrong! The Y2 car was a better deal!,But the white one that just sold at $120,000 was a better deal than both of them!

[nascarxx29]

This white one that was Jims at one sold for $120K     

**Inactive Link Removed**

[nascarxx29]

This one appears to be uncomplete.Was there more parts to go with it.          http://www.cars-on-line.com/22714.html

[69_500]

Yeah the Y2 Yellow one there had all of the rest of the parts to go with it. Just aren't shown in those few photo's.

I wasn't aware that the White one, that was a factory Bronze car sold for $120K. That seems like a heck of a deal.

[dayclona]

Here are a couple of shots of that car in the swap meet at the Nats last summer.



And the interior.

                         Lets face it, anybody that buys that car, after a day of tearing it down, evaluating it,.............will roll the donor body next to it, and transplant surgery will comense! .....sorry but that's the truth!, behind closed doors!..................I saw the car rust bucket?..........bucket of $hit!......................and Petey you thought my "white" daytona project was a basket case!................that car was a Georgia peach compared to this one!





     Mike G/ DAYCLONA

[Ghoste]

I thought I had more pics of the back of the car too but I can't seem to find those now.  It wasn't any better at that end though, I do recall that.

[hemigeno]

There's not a single person who has looked at the car without a similar reaction to those expressed on this thread.  It's rough, but it's still a Daytona.  And while it would be easier to transplant the numbers to a donor car, I know Clayton and his dad well enough to guarantee they would never do such a thing.  Ever.  If they sell the car to someone else, now that's another story...

It is a numbers-matching engine, but the transmission is not.  I took a close look at both when under the car.  The interesting thing about the engine is that it has a late November, 68 casting date while the engine has a correct early May assembly date.  I do not question for a moment whether or not this is the original engine - it is.  I just found that casting date to be a little unusual.

Pete, we have about the same idea on what the car was worth.  I told Clayton from the start that he could probably get in the $50k's for the car, and I agree that much of anything over that would make the car a breakeven proposition from a value standpoint unless prices continue to really rise (which they might).  Betting on such an increase is more speculation than anything, and there are much better cars out there to try that strategy on.

Ghoste, thanks for posting the pics.  I thought I had some, but haven't found them yet.

Geno

[69_500]

Interesting how this thread went from a Daytona' hood topic to a discussion on this car. Oh, Gene just curious but the build sheet he found in that car, I know he hooked up with the owner at the nationals. But the guy who had the Q5 car, had another build sheet, did he give that one to Clayton? I believe it was for a Y2 yellow car.
I think that they should keep this car, and work on it over a long time frame. I don't think its beyond repair, but it definately would need a ton of work. Yeah it would be easier to rebody it, but that wouldn't be right either. One of these days I'll find one I can afford, until then I'll enjoy the 500.