DAYTONA HOODS ?

[65post]

  My daytona had no ribs with a build date 6-10.It has been said that some daytonas came originally with the ribbed hood.Would these be late production cars ? Mine had 000-000 stamped on the side lip of the hood.( fenders the same ) Do all the ribbed daytona hoods Have all 0s ? All 70 charger hoods I have seen do not .Whats your opinion ? Ribs or no ribs.

[nascarxx29]

The main noticable thing as compared to a 70 charger hood.The under side of my 69 daytona hood has no crash ribs .I call them up in the front underside area Unlike the ones seen under 70 charger hoods. My 69 440 has no ribs and the original cars Ive seen dont have them either


The crash (or strengthening) ribs in the front underneath side of most Daytona hoods.  I say most hoods, since there are some people whose Daytona hood has the ribs, and they swear up and down its original to their car.  I would say that most cars' hoods did not have the ribs, but there are probably original cars with ribs in their hood.

[hotrod98]

Unless the guy bought the car new, there's no real way of knowing whether they're original or not. People like to think that their cars are all original. Gene Gregory was at my shop a few weeks ago and was telling me that he built several steel noses several years ago that were identical to the originals and they weren't cheap. I would bet money that most of those noses are on real daytonas right now and the current owners think that they are original. He can convert deck lids to look like original pieces as well.

[69_500]

That or if you have known the owner of the car, who bought it new, then you can be sure it has all origional sheet metal. Its hard to tell now a days, with as good of reproduction pieces as there is out there. The nose cones Gene did years ago were great repro's, and are very good. The deck lids he is going, are also great. I thought about picking up a spare for myself here a year or so ago. Now I wish that I had, seeing as the decklid on Ebay was at $3,500 the other day, and the seller of that one admited it was repaired and wasn't all origional. So to me what is the difference in that one, or one that is made by Gene? He makes them out of Charger Trunk lids, just cuts them like Creative did.

[hotrod98]

The price Gene quoted me on converting a deck lid last year was $1000, which at the time seemed a little high. Needless to say, it no longer seems high to me. I've put my Daytona clone project on hold and have started to collect parts to build a g-machine type Superbird clone. If or when I do the Daytona clone thing, I'll definitely hook up with Gene for the deck lid. The shaker hood setup for my 71 cuda that he made looks great. Most people can't tell it from an original.

[nascarxx29]

I know my 69 440 daytona hood is original and smooth with no ribs The car was sold new in my local area .I got it from this guy who parked it in 77 with very low miles.It still has original fan belts hoses with hog ring clamps and factory lettered hoses original tires exhaust system both jacks etc.Some other reference original cars Ive studied also had the smooth hood.It might have been a car got in a fender bender in the following years.That replacement hood might have ribs.From being replaced as a later production part.My car has the typical grille square hole frame screen.But on a original survivor cars. Ive seen that got a later dealer replacement.Had the screen pattern like the superbirds used with the different screen holes pattern

[hotrod98]

I've restored a few '70 challengers that have been repaired (back in the '70's) with parts department replacement fenders that were made after the '72 challengers came out and they all have the notch in the top inner piece that bolts to the upper tie bar just like the '72 fenders. I've seen several '70's and '71's at car shows with the replacement fenders and when I get the chance to talk to the owners, I point it out just in case they ever notice the difference. We see design changes like this even today, especially in the rad supports. Rather than producing a new part entirely, the car companies will just incorporate the new changes into the old design support  and make the parts universally fit the current and previous year models. Reduces inventory and of course investment dollars. I'm sure that if a daytona were repaired by a body shop back in the mid '70's, they would definitely have had the regular '69 or '70 style parts used since there were probably very few daytona specific parts ever warehoused. One thing that I've always assumed is that if the daytona were to have been continued in '70, they would almost certainly have used the newer style hood since it was altered to make it stiffer and presumably more crashworthy.
If I owned a daytona that needed a hood, I don't think that it would be that difficult to use a '70 hood and just remove the ribs and make the reinforcement smooth. I've certainly made more complicated alterations than that before.

[nascarxx29]

I would remove the ribs from a 70 charger hood if I needed one.a As to paying $3000.00 for a real one thats on ebay

[Brock Samson]

can someone please post a comparo pic?
Tthank you for your prompt attention in this manner. 

[hemigeno]

I fully intend to use a '70 Charger hood on my car, but the ribs will be removed since I can't say that they were there in the first place.  The few pictures of the car I have with its original hood open don't show the front lip area.

I would be interested to know about the stampings (000-000) that 65post mentions, and if those are on other Daytona hoods.  Where on the fenders would the stampings be?  I still have original fenders, but the hood was toasted way back when.  

Incidentally, all but one of the Canadian Daytonas had a VIN starting with 414, but they all had a build date of 6/10.  Every Daytona built on the 10th was a Canadian car.

Do you have any pics of the number stampings, 65post (or anyone else?)

Here's a picture of a smooth hood (w/o the crash ribs):

[hemigeno]

Here's one I just took of the leading edge of the '70 Charger hood that is on my car now.  To be modified someday...

[Brock Samson]

 Thank you Hemigeno.




( BTW: i remember something about the trunk inner bracing for the STOCK2nd Gen. Chargers too,..  )

[69Charger500]

OK, so why is a Daytona hood not just a '69 hood.  Sorry if this is yet another well known detail!

[BigBlockSam]

i bought an old 70 charger hood yrs back and it's got no ribs. he said it was from a charger r/t. did some of these none ribed hoods make it onto regular chargers? i mean none daytona's

[dayclona]

I know my 69 440 daytona hood is original and smooth with no ribs The car was sold new in my local area .I got it from this guy who parked it in 77 with very low miles.It still has original fan belts hoses with hog ring clamps and factory lettered hoses original tires exhaust system both jacks etc.Some other reference original cars Ive studied also had the smooth hood.It might have been a car got in a fender bender in the following years.That replacement hood might have ribs.From being replaced as a later production part.My car has the typical grille square hole frame screen.But on a original survivor cars. Ive seen that got a later dealer replacement.Had the screen pattern like the superbirds used with the different screen holes pattern

       Dave..................................like you, I've been looking at, studying, documenting wingcars; albeit for different reasons,........... the hood deliema?........I was once drawn to the same conclusions on the ribs,...........but after seeing original 70 chargers with both, and original daytonas with both! (handfull to date),..................a little investigation over the years  with other "wingcar Guru's" revealed 2  seperate "inhouse/supplier" plants  of charger hoods, thus the alterations in die stamps,.................A few people will tell you that hoods with ribs won't clear the latch tray rib(front rib)....................this is true only in one case, that being when you "push" the nose back to "flush fit" (approx. 3/4") it with the fenders, you must also modify the latch tray receiver strip to allow the nose and tray to move rearward................And I concur with you Dave on the Superbird "honeycone" grill material being used as dealer "fix it" for the daytona, I seen a handfull of daytona's repaired this way from the dealers on original owner cars,......................Dave, have you studied Bob malcolms "bird", the limelite 6 barrel survivor car, very few people notice the grille screen, it's Daytona material!...............whats  interesting is the daytona grill screen as supplied to Creative Ind. was prefabed/sized by its  Canadian vendor, thus it's size, 5 1/2"x24" and shape was established!.................the "birds" maul measures  8"x24"........where and when was a "chunk" of screen(daytona) installed in this bird?.............the Malcolms have no clue? only that its unique!.........................the only one I've seen!...............how bout' you Davey?.........MCG missed it, when they shot the car also!............note I do have gille mat'l (daytona style) cut to fit Birds, if somebody wants something different!..........W.Warriors daytona grille material manufactured for them is precut to 6"x24" prior to them receiving it..........just a notation!..................if your buying an original "daytona" hood, look at the hoodpin screw orintation, it should be front to back, side to side, not an X pattern! thats  chrysler, not creative, same applies to 69 1/2 A12 lift off hoods, as creative did these cars as well!..........interesting note, talking about hood pins? the ones on the Malcolms Bird, the drivers side is in an X pattern (correct for a Bird!), but the passenger side is a north, south,east,west pattern like a daytona!.........maybe a Creative Ind. employee was on loan to the Superbird Clairpointe assy plant working on the passenger side assy line! when the Malcolms car was made!




Mike G./ DAYCLONA

[hotrod98]

Rene,
It sounds like you scored big time on that 70 hood purchase. It's entirely possible that the early 70 hoods were just like the daytona hoods. They may have realized the problem with the crashworthiness early in production. Who knows.
As for 69 hoods, they roll down at the front edge and the 70 hood is tapered to a flat edge at the front. They're completely different.

[nascarxx29]

On 68-69 charger trunk lids are correct for a daytona after you make the necessary modifications to them.If you was to use a 70 charger trunk lid.You would find extra cut outs in the bracing for the go wing cut outs only found on 70 charger trunk lids

[hemigeno]

OK, so why is a Daytona hood not just a '69 hood.  Sorry if this is yet another well known detail!

The short answer to this is that the Daytona was originally slated as a 1970 model, and to make its debut at Daytona in February of '70.  When the C500 didn't capture the '69 Daytona 500 win, the Chrysler brass pushed the schedule up.  If they were going to race it at the first-ever Talladega race (in September of '69), they had to have the cars built, converted and shipped out to the dealers prior to the race.  That would be just as the new '70 models were coming out.  The Daytona nosecone was designed using the '70 fenders & hood, so when they pushed production into the '69 model year, they had to put the '70 Charger derivative parts (Daytona front clip) on a '69 model year car.  '69 front clips would not mate up to the nosecone.

The cars were built at Hamtramck with a complete '69 front clip, minus the grille.  The outer fenders, hood and most everything forward of the radiator yoke were removed and replaced with Daytona parts.

[hemigeno]

a little investigation over the years  with other "wingcar Guru's" revealed 2  seperate "inhouse/supplier" plants  of charger hoods, thus the alterations in die stamps,.................

Was there any rhyme or reason to the use of one supplier over another --  Meaning after XX/XX/XX they used supplier #2?  Do you know if both styles found throughout the '70 model year?   I have kicked around the idea that a Detroit-area shop (or Hamtramck in-house) made the sheet metal used on Daytonas - since the Charger line in '70 was all made at the St. Louis plant.  That might explain the differences between the two styles, but I do not know that to be fact.  They could have easily sent any leftover hoods down to St. Louis, and used them on the assembly line there, rather than keeping them for NOS Daytona replacements (since there was essentially no difference).  Just a thought...

A few people will tell you that hoods with ribs won't clear the latch tray rib(front rib)....................this is true only in one case, that being when you "push" the nose back to "flush fit" (approx. 3/4") it with the fenders, you must also modify the latch tray receiver strip to allow the nose and tray to move rearward................

Interesting, I did not know this, but could see how it would be the case.

W.Warriors daytona grille material manufactured for them is precut to 6"x24" prior to them receiving it..........just a notation!

Is that the grille material Wayne Perkins lists for sale?

[dayclona]

a little investigation over the years  with other "wingcar Guru's" revealed 2  seperate "inhouse/supplier" plants  of charger hoods, thus the alterations in die stamps,.................

Was there any rhyme or reason to the use of one supplier over another --  Meaning after XX/XX/XX they used supplier #2?  Do you know if both styles found throughout the '70 model year?   I have kicked around the idea that a Detroit-area shop (or Hamtramck in-house) made the sheet metal used on Daytonas - since the Charger line in '70 was all made at the St. Louis plant.  That might explain the differences between the two styles, but I do not know that to be fact.  They could have easily sent any leftover hoods down to St. Louis, and used them on the assembly line there, rather than keeping them for NOS Daytona replacements (since there was essentially no difference).  Just a thought...

A few people will tell you that hoods with ribs won't clear the latch tray rib(front rib)....................this is true only in one case, that being when you "push" the nose back to "flush fit" (approx. 3/4") it with the fenders, you must also modify the latch tray receiver strip to allow the nose and tray to move rearward................

Interesting, I did not know this, but could see how it would be the case.

W.Warriors daytona grille material manufactured for them is precut to 6"x24" prior to them receiving it..........just a notation!

Is that the grille material Wayne Perkins lists for sale?

   Gene, the rhyme and reason was tooling leadtime, units available asap...............the key words .as in all of industry, ...................the Daytona program was a "backdoor" opperation on Chryslers behalf, they never intended Joe Public a daytona, NASCAR/ FORD/GM helped raise the original ante of 50 cars, to 400, then to 500, Creative Ind. was  suddenly beseized with  building not 50, but 500 cars, Chrysler gearing up for 70 production, was scrambling to supply vendors (cheaply) and parts to Creative Ind..........the early (non ribbed) hoods were supplied via the Los Angeles stamper, as their facilities where faster to respond to Chrysler Central Office needs in suppling Creative Ind.


yes Gene, thats Perkins "screen", Wayne also offers the "port hole" screening under the scoops ( different pattern than grille)


Mike G/ DAYCLONA

[hemigeno]

the early (non ribbed) hoods were supplied via the Los Angeles stamper, as their facilities where faster to respond to Chrysler Central Office needs in suppling Creative Ind.

Ok, that's understandable.  I wonder if the timeframe that a Daytona went through its conversion at Creative Industries played a role in whether or not it got a ribbed hood?  Meaning if a car was converted and/or shipped late in the production run, it was more likely to get a hood with the crash ribs?  The latest shipping date recorded for a Daytona is Sept 8th, and something tells me they were working on them up until the truck pulled away with the last batch of cars on it.  Chrysler's assembly plants were into the second month of the model year run by then, so perhaps the "regular" stamper was supplying at least some of the hoods (with crash ribs) by then.

That doesn't explain, though, how a regular Charger ended up with a hood with no ribs...  Was the LA stamper engaged to run regular parts, or just the quasi-Charger (Daytona) parts?  I suppose they did both, since it's apparent that the no-rib hoods were on some non-Daytonas.

This whole issue would make more sense if they all had the same characteristics... meaning Daytona = no ribs, '70 Charger = ribs.  This mix-n-match stuff is maddening, where all you have are tendencies rather than absolutes.  Geez, if only Chrysler would have thought of us poor enthusiasts 37 years ago when they were lining these parts suppliers up... 

[nascarxx29]

Well Geno I guess that just chrysler for you.Not exact science in details.Ive seen on daytona.Where the headlight door had XX29 SAE and not on another.My daytona is fri built car .And has factory mistakes.The 2 holes and retainer in the rad yoke thats holds the vacuum lines in place.On my original rad support .Didnt recieve the 2 holes or the retainer.The drill guy at creative nicked my vent window frames with the side of a driill bit .When installing the a pillar stainless.And those screws for the a pillar are showing through the windshield gasket.Were caulked or puttyed was apllied and smoothed by maybe someones finger.The way you find certain areas of details .Is how original it iis to your car.The next car will probably gets it own individual special detail traits.Thats why you camera document your cars unique details before coming apart.And record for restoration detail

[dayclona]

the early (non ribbed) hoods were supplied via the Los Angeles stamper, as their facilities where faster to respond to Chrysler Central Office needs in suppling Creative Ind.

Ok, that's understandable.  I wonder if the timeframe that a Daytona went through its conversion at Creative Industries played a role in whether or not it got a ribbed hood?  Meaning if a car was converted and/or shipped late in the production run, it was more likely to get a hood with the crash ribs?  The latest shipping date recorded for a Daytona is Sept 8th, and something tells me they were working on them up until the truck pulled away with the last batch of cars on it.  Chrysler's assembly plants were into the second month of the model year run by then, so perhaps the "regular" stamper was supplying at least some of the hoods (with crash ribs) by then.

That doesn't explain, though, how a regular Charger ended up with a hood with no ribs...  Was the LA stamper engaged to run regular parts, or just the quasi-Charger (Daytona) parts?  I suppose they did both, since it's apparent that the no-rib hoods were on some non-Daytonas.

This whole issue would make more sense if they all had the same characteristics... meaning Daytona = no ribs, '70 Charger = ribs.  This mix-n-match stuff is maddening, where all you have are tendencies rather than absolutes.  Geez, if only Chrysler would have thought of us poor enthusiasts 37 years ago when they were lining these parts suppliers up... 

  Gene, ...........Chrysler, like any manufacturer,  is going to use any sub-vendor,pre-production supplies, alternate suppliers, post production supplies to arrive at one goal!, to supply market, and to do so on a timely manner!.....................these so-called Daytona "street versions" were slapped together!, Chrysler didn't care about QC, ......................there was no QS9000 back then!.....................remember, back then, as today, an automobile, no matter how"significant" was still a commmodity with a shelf life!.......................production cars of the 60-70's were not "held" in the same "leaque" as the cars of the 20-30's( an era of hand fabrication, in the regards to Duesenbergs, Abarths,Bugatti,etc,etc)...........anything "mass produced" after the late 40's, was production "trash"......................so Chrysler had no regard to future "collectabillity"...................where as today every peice of crap is marketed as a future collectable!!!!!!how many "fools" stepped up to buy a "pace car version whatever!".......................So Gene, in closing; like I tell anyone trying to make sense of wingcar madness, it was built along the rules of Kaos, therefore , Kaos is what you will find!..............never say never!


MIKE G/ DAYCLONA

[dayclona]

Well Geno I guess that just chrysler for you.Not exact science in details.Ive seen on daytona.Where the headlight door had XX29 SAE and not on another.My daytona is fri built car .And has factory mistakes.The 2 holes and retainer in the rad yoke thats holds the vacuum lines in place.On my original rad support .Didnt recieve the 2 holes or the retainer.The drill guy at creative nicked my vent window frames with the side of a driill bit .When installing the a pillar stainless.And those screws for the a pillar are showing through the windshield gasket.Were caulked or puttyed was apllied and smoothed by maybe someones finger.The way you find certain areas of details .Is how original it iis to your car.The next car will probably gets it own individual special detail traits.Thats why you camera document your cars unique details before coming apart.And record for restoration detail

                      Dave,................I remember many years back , seeing an inhouse memo from Creative Industries, I believe offering an additional  50 cents per hour per employee working overtime ( hey! 50 cents went far in 69!) assembiling Daytonas, to hastenen production, also a newspaper ad looking for temporary "automotive minded" individuals to assist in some  automotive assy at Creative Ind, (assembiling Daytonas, unbeknownst to the applicants) I believe Radke had these, later posted in W, Warrior newsletters?


Mike G/ DAYCLONA

[69_500]

Great reading guys.

I was looking at the Malcom's Superbird a few years ago, but never started going over it with a fine tooth comb. I just looked at it for about 5 minutes, as I tend to spend the most amount of time staring at Daytona's and not the Birds.