Hi folks, options for cooling a 440? (Pics!)

[nihil]

New to the board. I have a `68 R/T 440-4 (100% unmolested), and like many of her sisters, she runs hot. Who makes the best cooling radiators for these things? I'd prefer OEM style (brass?) over aluminum, as Ma Mopar put a lot more R&D and testing into the original configuration than aftermarket companies have. I also need a new 7 blade fan, since mine has one blade that has decided to split, is there a good/recommended place for new or used original parts? Best flowing water pump option?

I've also heard that better flowing heads and exhaust will help, any opinions on this?

Thanks in advance for the replies.

Edit: Added pictures to appease the Mopar gods.

First time I had seen her in ~20 years:


After hosing off 10 years of crud:






First day home next to my daily:


I saw this door get slammed into by a CJ sliding down an icy hill when I was about 5yrs old, 30 years later I fixed it:







The rusty bits that need replacing (trunk floor and around the rear window also need replacing):





You asked for pictures, you got `em!

[bobs66440]

Hello and welcome.

Sorry to hear of your troubles. As far as I know, the 440 doesn't inherently run hot as a rule unless something is wrong. Mine runs 180 degrees all day long with a 22" radiator regardless of the situation and my buddies' engines are the same.

A little more info would be helpful. What do you consider "hot"? Are you sure the gauge is accurate? Are you running a clutch fan (a bad one would cause the problem)? Radiator shroud (not having one may be the cause)? Is your radiator in good shape (maybe partially clogged)? Is your thermostat working properly (not opening correctly will do it)? If your timing is too retarded, that would help contribute to the problem also (initial should be between 10-12 BTDC...around 36 total). I would start with the easiest things and work up.

[six-tee-nine]

Hello and welcome.

First of all we all like alot of pictures so the more pictures we get to se the more answers we'll bring.
For starters I think this post belongs in the engine and transmission section but thats the job of the mods to decide.
To answer your questions :

I think alot of people here run aluminum rads. They have proven their quality over the years and if you choose your product wise you will be satisfied. You can always paint it black to appear more stock looking. If you have the intention of keeping the car 100% original then you can buy OEM reproduction rads but you will need tou cough up some serious cash amounts ( I read about prices up to a grand).
A good viscous fan with a shroud and a 185 degree thermostat will get you started. Then you can always add an electric pusher fan with a toggle switch in front of the rad to help it keep cool in traffic on hot days.
I read about several members here who are using this particular setup. I personally  will be using dual elecic fans after I complete my restoration.

Aluminum heads will nock off some heat off the engine because aluminum guides the heat better away from the engine. But I would find it a dumb idea to change heads and leave a maybe clogged radiator in place.
I'd say replace the rad and thermostat make sure you have a good fan and shroud setup. Then replace the cooling liquid by a 60/40% mixture of water and antifreeze coolant.
Its not just the antifreeze but also the chemical mixture you add to the water that gives it a lower boiling point.

As a side note : overheating issues frequently are caused by lean running conditions or retarded ignition. So if you know engines a little you might want to check you plugs and look at the ignition with a timing light. before you do nything else.

[tan top]

hello & welcome    awesome project of a 68 by the looks of it  

[nihil]

A little more info would be helpful. What do you consider "hot"? Are you sure the gauge is accurate? Are you running a clutch fan (a bad one would cause the problem)? Radiator shroud (not having one may be the cause)? Is your radiator in good shape (maybe partially clogged)? Is your thermostat working properly (not opening correctly will do it)? If your timing is too retarded, that would help contribute to the problem also (initial should be between 10-12 BTDC...around 36 total). I would start with the easiest things and work up.

I consider 220-250 and pissing all over the ground as "hot". Have not tested the gauge, but in operation it appears correct. Stock fan/fan clutch. Factory shroud. Radiator externally doesn't look horrible for its age, minor corrosion visible, noticeable repairs (cold weld/epoxy type). Tried a 180deg thermostat, currently running with no thermostat, predictably it just takes longer to overheat with the thermostat removed. She had a recent tune up at a local shop when she was trailer'd up here (limited facilities here at home), though I have not verified the timing myself.

First of all we all like alot of pictures so the more pictures we get to se the more answers we'll bring.
For starters I think this post belongs in the engine and transmission section but thats the job of the mods to decide.
To answer your questions :

And pictures you shall have. Updated first post.

I think alot of people here run aluminum rads. They have proven their quality over the years and if you choose your product wise you will be satisfied. You can always paint it black to appear more stock looking. If you have the intention of keeping the car 100% original then you can buy OEM reproduction rads but you will need tou cough up some serious cash amounts ( I read about prices up to a grand).

I'm mostly interested in the most efficient heat transfer possible, be it made of brass, aluminum, dried monkey turds, whatever.

A good viscous fan with a shroud and a 185 degree thermostat will get you started. Then you can always add an electric pusher fan with a toggle switch in front of the rad to help it keep cool in traffic on hot days.
I read about several members here who are using this particular setup. I personally  will be using dual elecic fans after I complete my restoration.

My thoughts are that she could idle along in traffic all day long when she was new, and there's no reason she shouldn't be able to do it now with the same equipment.

Aluminum heads will nock off some heat off the engine because aluminum guides the heat better away from the engine. But I would find it a dumb idea to change heads and leave a maybe clogged radiator in place.
I'd say replace the rad and thermostat make sure you have a good fan and shroud setup. Then replace the cooling liquid by a 60/40% mixture of water and antifreeze coolant.
Its not just the antifreeze but also the chemical mixture you add to the water that gives it a lower boiling point.

As a side note : overheating issues frequently are caused by lean running conditions or retarded ignition. So if you know engines a little you might want to check you plugs and look at the ignition with a timing light. before you do nything else.

I'm definitely going to address the immediate cooling issues before doing heads/exhaust/anything else. Just curious as to peoples experiences with temperature with factory vs. aftermarket heads.

Thanks guys!

[nihil]

hello & welcome    awesome project of a 68 by the looks of it  

Thank you kindly. I grew up with this car. My father bought her new in `68, and I even have the original title and cancelled check from the dealer. My parents used to have to take me for rides in it to get me to go to sleep at night. The rumble of a 440 is morphine for the ears.

[y3chargerrt]

I had an "xl" core put in my original radiator.It has many more vertical tubes then a stock radiator, My radiator guy says using the old 2 3 4 core speak its a 5 core. I know it cools like a champion. I could leave it idling with the a/c until it runs out of gas and I don't think it would overheat.

[tan top]

hello & welcome    awesome project of a 68 by the looks of it  

Thank you kindly. I grew up with this car. My father bought her new in `68, and I even have the original title and cancelled check from the dealer. My parents used to have to take me for rides in it to get me to go to sleep at night. The rumble of a 440 is morphine for the ears.

wow dad bought it new ! great stuff !! i bet he has some ole war storys &  pictures  from back in the day

[bill440rt]

Wow, nice original car!! Looks like a great starting point.

From the tone of your posts it sounds like you are interested in keeping it as original (appearing) as possible?
My '70 Charger, 440 auto with A/C, has a completely 100% stock cooling system. It will idle all day long & not overheat. Original radiator was recored, new heater core, correct fan, shroud, AND clutch, correct water pump, & everything else was just flushed & cleaned.

Check your radiator first. Don't trust just the top few rows that you see, there might be a clog elsewhere. If it appears to be in good condition at least have a radiator shop boil or flush it out. Recore if necessary, but keep in mind if you go with a thicker core then you might have clearance issues with the fan. It's very tight to begin with. Drain & flush out the rest of the cooling system completely. A hi-flow water pump may also help.

Remove your fan & check out your fan clutch. Make sure there it is not excessively loose. If you have your broadcast sheet, it will tell you by a code number what your correct clutch is. Some over the counter parts store units are not only incorrect looking, but they might not have the correct "drag" that your car needs.

[Plum Crazy 68]

My 2 cents.  Spring in lower radiator hose, fan shroud, check to see if radiator cap seal is cracked.  I think clogs, timing, fan clutch, and thermostat were alreay mentioned.  Oh yea, drive fast and stay out of bumper to bumper traffic!

[Charger-Bodie]

Very cool Charger with a very Cool history. With all that cool it shouldn run hot...... Seriously I would check the siple things mentioned above and if they are ok I would ctart at the radiator.

[elacruze]

Great that the car has history!

Be certain that the mechanical and vacuum advance are working. Most tune-ups don't include checking the total timing advance.

[el dub]

Nice car. If your cap is good run your hand over the fins on the radiatror while running and feel for hot spots. Recore if its bad. After 10 years its probably clogged.

[ITSA426]

Welcome.  I had a crap filled but good looking 26 inch radiator in the 22 inch opening on my 383 four speed car.  Replaced it with a fresh 22" with an added core and everything is fine.  Four speed 66's used one less core than automatic cars so I now run a three core on that car.  If the heating problem is minor you can try a better grade of fuel and that will help if all else is good.  The urine that passes for fuel now days is not best for these old dogs but it is what we get to work with.  It doesn't take much heat to vaporize in the cylinders.  Your AC core might be plugged with bugs and old vegetation cutting down the airflow also.  Just a couple different ideas.

[MSRacing89]

Because its an original R/T, its going to be a tough decision to go down the road of aftermarket parts.  Personally I don't really care but just put some thought into before you start pulling OEM parts off.

Many of these responses here can get confusing, it simply comes down to the fact that car sat for a few decades so just start with the obvious things.  Getting the radiator serviced is a must.  Eliminating the T-stat is not the right move as it the water needs to stay in the radiator to dissipate heat.  So some restriction is needed.  Make sure the fan is with 2" of the radiator.  If the timing is too retarded it will run hotter, that HP cam use a little advancing like 15º at idle with the vacuum line off.  With that much heat as you state, you are most likely overly restricted somewhere. 
Good luck my friend.  Keep us updated.

[moparstuart]

very cool original unmolested car      welcome

[hemi68charger]

Aweomse car.. Looks like MM1 Bronze?

First, I would try and figure out why she's running out. I would avoid replacing the radiator with an aftermarket version. It's all together, why not leave it that way. I have owned many 440 Charger R/Ts, Charger 500's and this Daytona. All have been very friendly. Granted, I had issues with the Daytona. But, one look at the nose and you can see why. I would make sure the original radiator's fine, then make sure your water passages in your block are doing well. I would even by-pass for testing purposes the path to the heater core in the a/c box. I would get a new Mopar coolant temperature sending unit and get a good 215 fan. There should be plenty of original 7-blade fans out there via this website or the likes of ebay. I'm assuming your shroud is ok? Also, get your new water pump. Try running distilled water with the additive called Water-Wetter only. Water-Wetter has a lubricant in it as well for your pump bearing.

Troy

[R6red4spd69RT]

Something that has not been mentioned is a bad head gasket.

Sometimes it can get pretty frustrating especially when there are multiple contributing factors. I had a bad head gasket along with a bad fan clutch. When the radiator boiled over it was foamy and the fan clutch had little drag when hot. There are always clues.

Hope this helps.

Bob

[XS29LA47V21]

I have run a big griffin on the last two motor/eng improvements  :2thumbs:after spending to much money re-coring an original some years ago spending about the same money.. but they are not the same cooling .   I doubt I will ever run an original again as I live where it is hot and I like to drive mine and worry less at cruzs and around town.  Originality is overrated at that spot in my opinion....

[nihil]

wow dad bought it new ! great stuff !! i bet he has some ole war storys &  pictures  from back in the day

I've heard many a story about this car, and been a part of many more. As for pictures, there's not many of them left, but I'm damn sure going to take lots of pictures of it.

From the tone of your posts it sounds like you are interested in keeping it as original (appearing) as possible?

I am 100% a function over form type guy, but it's hard to argue with something this pretty.

My '70 Charger, 440 auto with A/C, has a completely 100% stock cooling system. It will idle all day long & not overheat. Original radiator was recored, new heater core, correct fan, shroud, AND clutch, correct water pump, & everything else was just flushed & cleaned.

That's my thought on the matter. The factory did a whole heap of testing and R&D so that it would operate under temperature extremes, and getting it back to the point that all these factory systems operate properly together rather than shotgunning a boatload of aftermarket parts seems to be the most logical approach.

Check your radiator first. Don't trust just the top few rows that you see, there might be a clog elsewhere. If it appears to be in good condition at least have a radiator shop boil or flush it out. Recore if necessary, but keep in mind if you go with a thicker core then you might have clearance issues with the fan. It's very tight to begin with. Drain & flush out the rest of the cooling system completely. A hi-flow water pump may also help.

Recommendations on the pump? I've heard lots of bad things about the 440 source pumps/housings. How does Milodon rate?

Remove your fan & check out your fan clutch. Make sure there it is not excessively loose. If you have your broadcast sheet, it will tell you by a code number what your correct clutch is. Some over the counter parts store units are not only incorrect looking, but they might not have the correct "drag" that your car needs.

The fan clutch seems fine, no play, not stiff. I don't have a broadcast sheet, just the VIN, fender tag, and original title/check.

My 2 cents.  Spring in lower radiator hose, fan shroud, check to see if radiator cap seal is cracked.  I think clogs, timing, fan clutch, and thermostat were alreay mentioned.  Oh yea, drive fast and stay out of bumper to bumper traffic!

I actually tried the drive faster approach, and she overheats worse on the highway than the does around town. a steady cruise at 40-45mph seems to be the happy spot at the moment. Spring in the lower hose is present and not collapsed. Seals seem fine. It was rebuilt in the late 80's so I don't know what water pump is in there.

Be certain that the mechanical and vacuum advance are working. Most tune-ups don't include checking the total timing advance.

Will be sure to check that, hopefully this weekend.

Welcome.  I had a crap filled but good looking 26 inch radiator in the 22 inch opening on my 383 four speed car.  Replaced it with a fresh 22" with an added core and everything is fine.  Four speed 66's used one less core than automatic cars so I now run a three core on that car.  If the heating problem is minor you can try a better grade of fuel and that will help if all else is good.  The urine that passes for fuel now days is not best for these old dogs but it is what we get to work with.  It doesn't take much heat to vaporize in the cylinders.  Your AC core might be plugged with bugs and old vegetation cutting down the airflow also.  Just a couple different ideas.

Like all my cars, she sees nothing but 93 octane, with the occasional dose of tolulene/avgas/racing fuel (depending on what's available at the time). Several spots on the AC core had bent/mangled fins. I've gone over it with a fin rake but have not had a chance to take her out for a proper drive since doing that.

Because its an original R/T, its going to be a tough decision to go down the road of aftermarket parts.  Personally I don't really care but just put some thought into before you start pulling OEM parts off.

It's not really that tough to be honest, monetary value means nothing to me as far as this car goes. She will never be sold or traded. If I end up having a son, it will be passed on to him when my time comes.

(continued in next post due to 9000 character limit)

[nihil]

Many of these responses here can get confusing, it simply comes down to the fact that car sat for a few decades so just start with the obvious things.  Getting the radiator serviced is a must.  Eliminating the T-stat is not the right move as it the water needs to stay in the radiator to dissipate heat.  So some restriction is needed.  Make sure the fan is with 2" of the radiator.  If the timing is too retarded it will run hotter, that HP cam use a little advancing like 15º at idle with the vacuum line off.  With that much heat as you state, you are most likely overly restricted somewhere.  
Good luck my friend.  Keep us updated.

The engine was rebuilt around 20 years ago (give or take), and she was driven regularly right up until my fathers health went to shit, around 8 years ago. Getting rid of the thermostat was just a temporary measure. Fan and rad are in their factory locations, shroud is intact and in place.

Aweomse car.. Looks like MM1 Bronze?

No no. That, my friend, is the ever so sexy (and seemingly very rare?) RR-1 burgundy, and she will return to her original color.

First, I would try and figure out why she's running out. I would avoid replacing the radiator with an aftermarket version. It's all together, why not leave it that way. I have owned many 440 Charger R/Ts, Charger 500's and this Daytona. All have been very friendly. Granted, I had issues with the Daytona. But, one look at the nose and you can see why. I would make sure the original radiator's fine, then make sure your water passages in your block are doing well. I would even by-pass for testing purposes the path to the heater core in the a/c box. I would get a new Mopar coolant temperature sending unit and get a good 215 fan. There should be plenty of original 7-blade fans out there via this website or the likes of ebay. I'm assuming your shroud is ok? Also, get your new water pump. Try running distilled water with the additive called Water-Wetter only. Water-Wetter has a lubricant in it as well for your pump bearing.

I've actually been meaning to try the water wetter, just haven't had the chance. New water pump is definitely on my list of things to replace. I don't know what was put in there after the rebuild, or if it was even replaced at all. Shroud looks to be in great condition. I'm going to weld this fan back together to use until I find a proper replacement.

Something that has not been mentioned is a bad head gasket.

Sometimes it can get pretty frustrating especially when there are multiple contributing factors. I had a bad head gasket along with a bad fan clutch. When the radiator boiled over it was foamy and the fan clutch had little drag when hot. There are always clues.

I've seen zero evidence of oil<->water contamination, so I'm going to rule out head gasket for now.

I have run a big griffin on the last two motor/eng improvements  :2thumbs:after spending to much money re-coring an original some years ago spending about the same money.. but they are not the same cooling .   I doubt I will ever run an original again as I live where it is hot and I like to drive mine and worry less at cruzs and around town.  Originality is overrated at that spot in my opinion....

I've actually heard some good things about Griffin. Had planned to pick one up for the Jeep.



Thanks all for the replies. I'm hoping to get her running cool and do some cruising around this summer, and let her spend the winter at a body shop to get those rusty areas taken care of (I'm a ninja with a wrench, but I have neither the facilities nor the patience for sheet metal bodywork.).

[skip68]

I have a Griffin 32" in my car and it runs cool.   Nice car and welcome to the site.   

[daveco]

Texas car eh .
Are you still located in Texas?

[nihil]

Texas car eh .
Are you still located in Texas?

My father lived in Texas. He gave her to me several years ago, and my intention was to find a house with a large garage, fix her up myself (sans bodywork), and give her back to him. Those plans didn't quite work out, he died of congestive heart failure with complications a little over a year ago.

You can see how narrow my driveway is in some of the pictures, and the garage is even smaller. Fortunately I was great at tetris, and can fit her in there just barely. Still looking for a house though. Three cars, two motorcycles, and a sailboat, plus the womans car. There's just not enough room here for my toys.

[daveco]

Sorry to hear of your fathers passing, it must make having his Charger very special.