Crisis Mode hot running 505 wedge, 4 core Champion Radiator or Oem Mopar 4 core?

[1Bad70Charger]

OK, Have brand new 505 stroker engine 10:6 compression running HOT with 4 core Chamipion Radiator, fans and shroud!  Running 160 stat and its working.

I am in in crisis mode now as my engine builder, has tried a lot of different stuff so far and thinks I need to go to Mopar oem 4 core 440 radiator, with the oem style fan and shroud (I don't agree with him and want your objective opinions).

In order  not to have cooling issues we went with the biggest 26 inch 4 core Champion Radiator with dual fans and alum shroud that goes around the fans that Champion supplys.

My only question for this thread is your honest opinion whcih of the two radiiators, fans, and shrouds, will keep me running cooler, and please state your reasons why and personal experience on this issue.

THANK YOU KINDLY in advance!  

[FLG]

Do you happen to be using a 440 source aluminum WP housing? If so...thats your problem

If not, hows your jetting? are you running lean?

[1Bad70Charger]

Do you happen to be using a 440 source aluminum WP housing? If so...thats your problem

If not, hows your jetting? are you running lean?

Hey Bro

No to the 440 source and according to tuner running on the rich side but I think he needs to go richer on this new engine! 

Did you put in your new Engle Cam that I sold you?  If yes, I bet you love it? 

[FLG]

Thanks again for the parts 


Engine is still in pieces, just need to get some rocker arms (already got some nicey ported eddys  )

How about your WP what are you running? Also what size pulley? I know people can have issues with miss matched pulley setups causing the WP to move too slowly or too fast.

Might be simple but have you checked that your T-Stat is opening fully? Ive had brand new t-stats be bad...from now on i always check them in a pot of boiling water before use.

Is this happening at idle or while driving? Are you running a clutch fan? Is it slipping?

How "new" is the engine? Its typical for a brand new engine to run warm until things have loosened up a bit, also how hot is hot?

[1Bad70Charger]

Too many questions for me right now bro have to hit the sack I am beat and FRUSTRATED!! 

Give me your opinions on my radiator question bro if you have one, and reasons why one gets the nod over the other.

Thanks man!

Your going to LOVE that Engle K58/60 cam you bought from me new in the box! 

[FLG]

LOL I just got back from work so im still wide awake 


Hmm,

Actually thinking about it, a 4 core might not be as efficient as a 2-3 core simply because your now loosing surface area..id make sure everything is good to go before changing radiators but its possible your loosing too much surface area with that 4 core causing issues...fins per square inch is more important than row count. For comparisons sake, i think Ron is running a dual pass on his 572

Cant wait to hear that cam 

[HPP]

Ditto some of what FLG asked.

How hot is hot? When is it hot; idling, in traffic, at speed? Rule of thumb-at low speed, air flow, at high speed, water flow, either too fast or too slow. What pulleys? Have you verified thremostat operation? How many miles on the set up? You mention a Champion 4 core radiator, is it aluminum or brass?

Personally, I'm not a big electric fan advocate simply because in some instances, they cannot pull enough air and have inefficient shroud designs. Ditto many flex fan arrangements. This is where the OEM design shroud and fans can pull mucho more flow and with a thermal clutch unit, be much more efficient at it. Brass is a better thermal conductor than aluminum, which may be why your engine builder is suggesting the change, however, aluminum is stronger so you can build more efficient tube layouts with it.

[oldkimmer]

............Try a 180 Tstat.........kim...........

[1Bad70Charger]

............Try a 180 Tstat.........kim...........

Instead of the 160 I am using?

Would you really expect that change to solve my issue?

[MSRacing89]

Could be as simple as timing.  Not enough initial timing a big motor will make it run hot.  I would start there.  If you are sitting 10 or 12 initial, go to 19 or 20 and you will most likely see a dramatic improvement.

Personally I go with the Flex-a-lite 6 blade fan with a stock style shroud.  Fan to be 2" from radiator and we have never had cooling issues. 

[Cooter]

Ok, Go ahead and pull your hair out, make up cuss words for that thing, replace the radiator 21 times, with 21 different radiators, swap fans/shrouds another 10 times and when it's all said and done, that thing will run 200-220 degrees on a 100 degree day I don't give a shit what you do to it...


Just sayin'...

However, you might think of dumping that 4 core radiator for a newer aluminum onbe with dual 1" cores, and that 160 degree thermostat will actually make it run hotter than the 180 by moving water through the engine too fast...BTW: Rule of thumb, DO NOT RELY ON THE FACTORY TEMP GAUGE...And if isn't putting coolant on the ground or in the overflow tank, then it's happy....

[1Bad70Charger]

Ok, Go ahead and pull your hair out, make up cuss words for that thing, replace the radiator 21 times, with 21 different radiators, swap fans/shrouds another 10 times and when it's all said and done, that thing will run 200-220 degrees on a 100 degree day I don't give a shit what you do to it...


Just sayin'...

However, you might think of dumping that 4 core radiator for a newer aluminum onbe with dual 1" cores, and that 160 degree thermostat will actually make it run hotter than the 180 by moving water through the engine too fast...BTW: Rule of thumb, DO NOT RELY ON THE FACTORY TEMP GAUGE...And if isn't putting coolant on the ground or in the overflow tank, then it's happy....

Cooter, she will run up to 240 or 250 if I don't shut her off at 220 right now.

My question, with this Champion 4 core 26 inch radiator I have am I better off with a 180 stat in your opinion vs the 160.

Also, on the open road the temps should drop and they don't so general rule of thumb is radiator is moving water to fast or too slow.

What do you recommend, I don't want to give up on this radiator yet and shell out another $1,000 if I can avoid it, or do you fell the CHampion radiator (made in China) is a piece of shit simpy incabalbe of doing its job?

THank you! 

[firefighter3931]

Jim, how is the water circulation across the top of the rad with the cap off and thermostat open ?

What waterpump/housing are you running ?

Is the trans plumbed into the rad or stand alone tranny cooler ?

What is the initial timing at idle ?
 
Float level in carb ?


Ron

[1Bad70Charger]

Jim, how is the water circulation across the top of the rad with the cap off and thermostat open ?-Tuner looked at this seemed normal to him.

What waterpump/housing are you running ?-He is using a new Edelbrock waterpump assume mechanical not certain and believe housing is stock but not positive.

Is the trans plumbed into the rad or stand alone tranny cooler ?-Not certain think its stand alone but will find out but coolant was running hot quicky while tranny temps where cool (have tranny temp gauge also).

What is the initial timing at idle ?-Don't know and he does not seem to be concerned about what it is (think its time for  a new tuner).
 
Float level in carb ?-Don't Know.

Why do I know if you could wrench on this thing for about 1 hour Ron my problems would be solved!  


Ron

[firefighter3931]

What is the initial timing at idle ?-Don't know and he does not seem to be concerned about what it is (think its time for  a new tuner).
 

Jim.... as i said in the PM start by installing the Black bushing in your MSD distributor and bump up the base timing to 18* at idle and report back. 

The timing is coming in waay too late and this is certainly contributing to your overheating issues. 

Your "tuner" must be used to working on Chevy's 



Ron

[1Bad70Charger]

What is the initial timing at idle ?-Don't know and he does not seem to be concerned about what it is (think its time for  a new tuner).
 

Jim.... as i said in the PM start by installing the Black bushing in your MSD distributor and bump up the base timing to 18* at idle and report back.  

The timing is coming in waay too late and this is certainly contributing to your overheating issues.  

Your "tuner" must be used to working on Chevy's  



Ron

Thank you Ron and everyone else   and Ron, your 100% correct, he is primarily a Chevy guy and this explains everything!  

[MSRacing89]

Could be as simple as timing.  Not enough initial timing a big motor will make it run hot.  I would start there.  If you are sitting 10 or 12 initial, go to 19 or 20 and you will most likely see a dramatic improvement.

Personally I go with the Flex-a-lite 6 blade fan with a stock style shroud.  Fan to be 2" from radiator and we have never had cooling issues. 

Did I mention the timing thing already???  Sometimes! 

Trust us when say its not the radiator.  Its either the tune or the way its moving air.

[1Bad70Charger]

Could be as simple as timing.  Not enough initial timing a big motor will make it run hot.  I would start there.  If you are sitting 10 or 12 initial, go to 19 or 20 and you will most likely see a dramatic improvement.

Personally I go with the Flex-a-lite 6 blade fan with a stock style shroud.  Fan to be 2" from radiator and we have never had cooling issues.  

Did I mention the timing thing already???  Sometimes!  

Trust us when say its not the radiator.  Its either the tune or the way its moving air.

OK, thanks to Ron I have check with the tuning and the intial timing is at least 18 and he is running the proper black bushing in my new MDS Distributor.  Ron thinks it releated to the tune on the carb and it may be.

We have tried lots of stuff so far from removing the themostat completely, to doing the oppossite by putting in a restrictor to slow down the water movement, to no avail.  

He has checked the thermostat and has seen it move the water when it reached 160 and also is convinced its working b/c it was closed when he removed. I FUQNKING asked him twice to do the water boiling test when it was out and he said he would and did not and that type of shit drives me nuts and why we will probably be amicably parting ways after one more attempt to get this resolved.

Here is ONE HUGE FACTOR that has to be related to water movement issue, the car does NOT START TO COOL DOWN AT ALL when you hit the open road, even if you hit the open road and its only 190 when you get there.  IT Still creeps up in the heat until I have to shut it down and cool her off at 220*. 

He spec'ed out some high volume edelbrock water pump (think it mechanical) and between the carb tune, not enought fans and water pump, I bet one of those will solve the problem and time will tell soon enough I hope!! 

[MSRacing89]

The carb is not going to have that dramatic of an effect on the temperature.  If you are close on timing and the thing seems to drive ok, than I would for sure be looking another direction.

I would be looking at the pump at this point.  Making sure the belt isn't slipping or something simple like that.  What does your lower radiator hose look like?  Is it collasping?  Second thing I would do is go back to a stock shroud and 6 blade fan. 

[1Bad70Charger]

The carb is not going to have that dramatic of an effect on the temperature.  If you are close on timing and the thing seems to drive ok, than I would for sure be looking another direction.

I would be looking at the pump at this point.  Making sure the belt isn't slipping or something simple like that.  What does your lower radiator hose look like?  Is it collasping?  Second thing I would do is go back to a stock shroud and 6 blade fan. 

The car is running FANTASITIC otherwise in every area.  Just not gettting enough air through that darn radiator or the water pump I bet. If that fails will be going with the best oem looking modern Glen Ray Radiator, shroud and mechanical fan set-up, and I bet that does the job for sure (or my $ back per Glen Ray guarantee). 

[FLG]

Might be obvious, but have you checked to make sure the temp reading is accurate?

[1Bad70Charger]

Might be obvious, but have you checked to make sure the temp reading is accurate?

Yes, this new big block is running HOT, HOTTER AND HOTTEST!! Keeps on climbing after driving long enough where I have to shut her down at 220* not to hurt the new eninge.

Even when she is only at 190 b/c just warming up temps DO NOT drop but just keep on climbing on the open road at 50 mph with no traffic!!   

[68r/t]

It may even have a head gasket issue, is it dumping water out of the overflow when you shut it off?

[1Bad70Charger]

It may even have a head gasket issue, is it dumping water out of the overflow when you shut it off?

NO, zero, almost positive not related to engine build itself.  Does not spit any coolant out or leak any fluids at all.  

I do have my old big block 26 inch radiator for my car that I ran with no shroud last year with its weak 440 engine.  

I think it makes sense for me to go back to that with its mechanical fan set-up, come up with a shroud, and I wouldn't be surprised if my problem was solved.

Last year car ran cool with this radiator and with no shroud would only heat-up when stuck in bad traffic on hot days?

Don't you guys think this makes sense to try next?

[firefighter3931]

JIm does your lower rad hose have a spring in it ? If not, the waterpump will collapse the hose and cut off flow. 

I would look closely at the water circulation across the top of the rad and make sure it's moving briskly when you blip the throttle.

A lean condition will certainly make it run hot....double check the float level. 

with a 1300rpm idle it's on the main circuit instead of the idle circuit...carb mods may be in order if you can't idle it down with the 4 corner idle.


Ron

[1Bad70Charger]

Guys,

I think he is close on the initial timing he says he is over 18* at idle, and I will have that confirmed tommorrow.

Car run likes a champ other than its running TOO HOT!

I don't want to leave HP on the table and initially he set total timing at 34* and backed it off to 32* with the cooling issue.

Question: Per Ron and others it seems like this type of 505 ci engine (10:6 compression) wants 36* of total timing to make maximum power.  If I have him set the total timing at 36* this should not have a negative effect on my cooling issue, as long as the initial timing is set properly, right?

[firefighter3931]

Question: Per Ron and others it seems like this type of 505 ci engine (10:6 compression) wants 36* of total timing to make maximum power.  If I have him set the total timing at 36* this should not have a negative effect on my cooling issue, as long as the initial timing is set properly, right?

That is correct Jim 


Ron

[six-tee-nine]

If you start the engine when it's cold does it get hot really fast? If it warms up normally and starts to overheat after the regular warm up period I'd say thermostat. If it gets hot after just a couple of minutes i'd say water pump or air pocket.
I read about some members here having the same issue and they have put the front wheels on a ramp to find out that the pump was'nt moving the water enough after several big burps came out of the rad, all was fine.

Since you are'nt using an OEM pump are you sure the rotation is correct?
However if you're aying you're engine is overheating at idle without a thermostat in the system I keep with my first point : water pump. That is if of course the engine is'nt running lean or the ignition is completely retarded.

Make sure for 500% that your ign timing is where it should be, and its running rich enough. Then put your thermostat in a pan of boiling water and see if its opening all the way. Then make sure when the system is filled its air free

[1Bad70Charger]

How does one check for an air pocket and that the sytem is air free?

[firefighter3931]

How does one check for an air pocket and that the sytem is air free?

It's referred to as "burping" the cooling system. 

Get the front end up on a set of ramps and run the engine with the rad cap off. If there are any trapped air pockets they will move to the top of the rad and you will see a burp. When this happens your coolant level will drop and you know that any excessive air has been purged.


Ron

[1Bad70Charger]

Ok, big improvement and MAJOR step in the right direction, about 90% certain my problem is related to no shroud and not enough fan/cooling.

Although it only got up to 66 degrees today, removing the piece of shit Champion shroud (made in China  ), that is a maor design flaw that actually blocks air flow like putting cardboard behind the radiator around the 2 little fans, seems to have CURED my problem of overheating and runnning hot on the open road with no traffic.  She ran 180 all day when not stuck in traffic, saw 218 in traffic jam, but FOR THE FIRST TIME dropped several degrees and drove at 180 after hitting the open road with no taffic.

Was my tuner's idea to remove the crap alum shroud that goes behind the radiator around the two fans, and removing them has made a 1000% improvement, and for the first time she maintaned 180 degrees and even dropped down to 175* once I hit the open road.  I also stopped by an old school shop that specializes only in heating and cooling cars, and both the owner and his son (who is a Mopar fanatic and owns 5 SWEET Mopar project cars), concurred the the Champion Shroud was a piece of GARBAGE and was blocking major air flow and was the reason why the temps would not come down when on the open road until today.

I have a new Mopar oem shroud that we are going to fabricate and going to change to mechanical fan in back, and use the two smaller fans as push fans and I should be good to go.

Stay tuned, was GREAT to finally jump on the car a littel bit today as she remained cooled until I got caught in traffic, and the car is a FREAKING ANIMIAL!  

Stay tuned and thanks for EVERYBODY'S support here!.  

[firefighter3931]

Great news Jim....Glad you guys made some progress 



Ron

[elacruze]

Hey, just finished the Power Tour with my 10.6:1 505...left home with 20 miles on it, just finished about 1700. I have a 180* thermostat.

First thing I noticed is that the engine is very sensitive to idle timing. I have about 15* at idle, any less than 12* and it heats up noticeably. If my distributor was curved correctly, it would probably like 18* more and run cooler.

Secondly, it ran dang hot for 6-700 miles. Nevermind that it was 100* in Georgia and Alabama... Still, after Nashville I could idle all day long in 90* with the A/C running and not get over 215*. Before that I couldn't run the A/C, in fact on the first and second days I couldn't let it idle more than 4-5 minutes without getting scary hot (which for me is straight up on the gauge, interpolating computer coolant temp that means 230-250*)

As Ron says, give it enough idle timing to keep the heat out of the exhaust ports, and give it time to settle in. Don't be afraid to let it heat up some-Despite the fears of many you can't hurt anything up to 250* if your hoses, radiator, etc. are all in good shape.

[1Bad70Charger]

Thanks Ron & Elacruze, yeah she has over 20 degree initial timing now at idle and 36* total, all in by 2700, and the car is very responsive and runs GREAT!!  Sounds bad azz with the big solid flat tappet cam I am running 264/270, 108 lsa, .579 lift, at .050.    WIth these cubes this big cam is VERY streetable!

It is good that the first few days when she was running WAY TO HOT in 100 degree outside temps, that even when I shut her down at 240* degree, that she did not spit out any coolant from the overflow radiator tube, and as Cooter says as long as she not spitting out fluid she is happy!  

I don't expect to see those temps again and if caught in traffic in bad heat, until I get the fans and shroud properly set up, I will shut her down around 230 to let things cool done as my idential engine to your cube wise (505) and compression (around 10:7), has less than 100 miles on it and I want to play things safe.

Was a GREAT day having this thing finally run cool on the open roads and got my poles fabricated to lift off my fiberglass 6 pack hood, and really show off this bad boy 69 Road Runner, at the many car shows I attend on an yearly basis.  This is my FAVORITE muscle car of them all, down to the color and black steel wheels and looks idential to the car in the picture below except I don't have the red line tires (which gives it an even meaner look).

http://www.russoandsteele.com/collector_car/1969_plymouth_roadrunner__a12__/42-6154.html#

[1Bad70Charger]

Thanks Ron & Elacruze, yeah she has over 20 degrees initial timing now at idle and 36* total, all in by 2700, and the car is very responsive and runs GREAT!!  Sounds bad azz with the big solid flat tappet cam I am running 264/270, 108 lsa, .579 lift, at .050.              With these cubes this big cam is VERY streetable, as its hard to overcam a 505 ci Wedge Engine!

It is good that the first few days when she was running WAY TO HOT in 100 degree outside temps, that even when I shut her down at 240* degree, that she did not spit out any coolant from the overflow radiator tube, and as Cooter says as long as she not spitting out fluid she is happy!  

I don't expect to see those temps again and if caught in traffic in bad heat, until I get the fans and shroud properly set up, I will shut her down around 230 to let things cool done as my idential engine to your cube wise (505) and compression (around 10:7), has less than 100 miles on it and I want to play things safe.

Was a GREAT day having this thing finally run cool on the open roads and got my poles fabricated to lift off my fiberglass 6 pack hood, and really show off this bad boy 69 Road Runner, at the many car shows I attend on an yearly basis.  This is my FAVORITE muscle car of them all, down to the color and black steel wheels and looks idential to the car in the picture below except I don't have the red line tires (which gives it an even meaner look).

http://www.russoandsteele.com/collector_car/1969_plymouth_roadrunner__a12__/42-6154.html#

[firefighter3931]

Jim, how do the plugs look 

Still burning rich 



Ron

[HPP]

I beleive I said in my initial post back on the first page, up towards the top of the thread, that I'm not a big fan of electric cooling fans for two reasons; they don't pull enough air and they have inefficient shroud designs.

This does point out the problem of having too many poeple throw too many ideas out there all at once. Its hard to methodically tackle a problem when everyone has an opinion of what will fix it.

[firefighter3931]

I beleive I said in my initial post back on the first page, up towards the top of the thread, that I'm not a big fan of electric cooling fans for two reasons; they don't pull enough air and they have inefficient shroud designs.

This does point out the problem of having too many poeple throw too many ideas out there all at once. Its hard to methodically tackle a problem when everyone has an opinion of what will fix it.

I have a single 16in 3000cfm electric fan installed as a pusher and it works fine cooling a 700hp 572ci stroker. The rad is an Afco 26in crossflow dual pass with 1in tubes. I also run a stand alone trans cooler...

I`m thinking along the same lines as HPP....the shroud design is most likely an issue.


Ron

[1Bad70Charger]

Ron,

Your obvioulsy using a mechanical fan also then along with a Mopar stock style shroud?

[firefighter3931]

Ron,

Your obvioulsy using a mechanical fan also then along with a Mopar stock style shroud?

Nope, no mechanical fan & no shroud.....just the electric pusher fan  

Some engine bay pics in this thread : http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,77455.0.html



Ron

[1Bad70Charger]

Ron,

Your obvioulsy using a mechanical fan also then along with a Mopar stock style shroud?

Nope, no mechanical fan & no shroud.....just the electric pusher fan  

Some engine bay pics in this thread : http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,77455.0.html



Ron

WOW, and in hot weather this does the job on the street?  Amazing, if you stay cool in traffic jams!